Immigrants break into rental house and camp out and police do nothing.

[driveby]

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddles masses yearning to breathe free... and I will knock their asses back to where they came from."

 

Are you guys having a difficult time with the concept of illegal vs legal?

[SEC=UGA]

So, now they are for deporting American citizens???

 

Would you rather them be ground up and served at a Taco Bell?

[Perchoutofwater]

So, now they are for deporting American citizens???

 

No I think what he supports is the repeal of the anchor baby law, which would be really helpful in fighting illegal immigration.

[westvirginia]

i don't know the best way to determine who's here illegally. then again, i haven't been appointed by arizona voters to solve that problem. in the whole of the arizona legislature, this is the best idea they could come up with?

 

if this law spurs legislators to seriously consider what to do about illegal immigration, then perhaps the ends justify the means. but, in my opinion, the law on its face is wrong. it authorizes law enforcement to question someone's legal status based on assumptions and prejudices, something i wouldn't tolerate from my own kids, much less the authorities. and, frankly, it amazes me that, in one breath, people can complain about government abusing its power, and in the next breath, exclaim, "hey, i'm fine with police questioning people whose only offense is fitting an arbitrary description of someone who's here illegally!"

 

If this blogger can be believed, I might have changed my mind on this.

 

The broad anti-immigrant bill passed by the Legislature this week makes it a crime to be in the country illegal:

 

Wrong. It's already a crime to be in the country illegally. SB 1070 made it a STATE crime by copying the federal language. This makes a huge difference because opponents used Dionne's quote to say that Arizona was adopting its own immigration policy as well as criminalizing being in the country illegally. Both of those assumptions are wrong.

 

The need to carry proper 'papers' falls squarely on Arizona's Latino population -- including those born and raised in the Grand Canyon State.

 

Wrong--and frankly outrageous. Federal law already requires resident aliens to carry registration documents. SB 1070 makes it a state crime to violate the federal law. The law doesn't apply to "those born and raised in the Grand Canyon State" because they are obviously citizens. The law also lists documents that provide a presumption of citizenship one of which is a Driver's License. There is no needfor citizens to carry their birth certificate or passport. Once again, if you read the explanation in Sunday's Republic, you will see how incorrect the editorial is.

 

The bill invites racial profiling and ignores the fact that Latinos are an intrinsic part of Arizona's history and its future.

 

Wrong. Actually, the bill prohibits racial profiling by saying that race can only be considered to the "extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution." And under no circumstances can the officer "solely" consider race, color or national origin. (He can "consider" race as a factor just like he can under federal and Arizona law now.) Sunday's version doesn't even address this point because the bill makes it so clear that racial profiling is NOT allowed that it wasn't even worth a mention--that's because there's no change in the law. Racial profiling was not allowed before the bill and it's not allowed after the bill.

[TimC]

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddles masses yearning to breathe free... and I will knock their asses back to where they came from."

 

 

Who really wants the tired and the poor? The rich and energetic are much more fun to hang around with. Additionally, I question if "tired" should be replaced with "lazy" which explains why they are poor.

 

But anyways, Arizona needs to realize that you can't get too fancy with racism. Requiring someone to do something to prove they belong here and should be accepted is the wrong way to go. You're depending on a Mexican to carry around a piece of paper proving he should be here. Think of all the stuff a Mexican has to think about carrying around with him daily....lawnmower, weedeater, lime, tequila, pot, sombrero or other funny hat...the list is endless. And you Arizonianans expect him to remember his documents on top of all that?

 

It's like being racist against Jews. You have to throw a dollar bill down the street and watch them chase and they rarely return with it so then you have to chase them. What a big hassle.

 

Sorta like the Muslims....who really wants to wait until they blow something up in the name of their fake God in order to find out they are Muslim? Or you have to provide a woman and wait for them to beat them up or kill the woman. What a pain.

 

Then you've got the Asians. Can we really afford to carry around radiation detectors and check for remnants of our freedom bombs we dropped in 1945 to verify they are Asian? Heck no.

 

Or the Italians. You have to sit through another viewing of Rocky and get them all fired up and ready to fight before kicking their ass like Patton did to the whole stinking race. So much effort for so little satisfaction. Beating up an Italian that thinks he's tough is child's play.

 

Which, of course, falls back to what the South has always known. Just stick with the blacks. It doesn't require any extra effort and they're usually easy to catch. The Mexicans like to run to the border, run to Taco Bell, run to cut grass....so much running. You ever seen a black person run that isn't on a track? Just pull them over and if they refuse to say the word "ask" then you check the bottoms of their feet to see if it's a different color and, bang, you're done.

 

Basically it's your fault for the grief, Arizona. You got too fancy with your racism.

[SEC=UGA]

This makes my rant I was gonna post on Catholcism look weak...

 

Good job timmay

[bpwallace49]

The ONLY thing the Arizona law does is give state law enforcement the power to enforce already enacted federal law. Period. If you are here legally - carry your documentation. I have to carry my picture ID daily for various reasons - and readily show it. What makes the illegals better than me?

 

Perhaps the only thing you do not have to show valid pictured ID to do in the U.S. - is to vote. That is what the stink about this is really about. That is pathetic. It is about stealing and fixing elections.

 

Until you furnish a non-forged birth certificate on demand, I still think you are an illegal alien. Prove us wrong . . .

[TimC]

This makes my rant I was gonna post on Catholcism look weak...

 

I, for one, would appreciate hearing it.

[Perchoutofwater]

[montster]

First off, most everything we do in this world works off of assumptions and prejudices. Math, Science, Physics, Law Enforcement, etc... If you think your kids aren't already operating and using assumptions and prejudices in their daily lives, you're wrong.

 

of course they do. if my kid sees a pot on the stove, she should assume it's hot, even if it's not. that's far different from judging someone based on skin color.

 

Second, if I'm looking for illegal Mexicans (see my earlier post regarding this term) I'm going to look for people that fit the "arbitrary description" of a Mexican. There is no perfect way, in any investigation, to absolutely ensure that an innocent party does not accidentally become a person of interest. For example, if a cop is looking for a white dude in a blue polo shirt, other white dudes in blue polo shirts may get questioned. So should we not put out an "arbitrary" description of the perp. Should, before any investigation begins (investigation meanin a search to determine facts), we be sure to have the persons name, social and home address? It can't happen. In my opinion, this is no different than what cops do when they have leads in other investigations. Are you meaning to tell me that if they get a description of a perp who is black and wearing a jogging suit that it would be profiling and thus wrong to investigate any black person in the area who is wearing a jogging suit, should we exclude all descriptive terms when referring to a perp? And to be certain, the illegal Mexicans are perps, they are breaking numerous federal laws.

 

"white dude in a blue polo shirt" is a description. "black man in a jogging suit" is a description. the law provides no such guidance. it says that police can question someone where "reasonable suspicion exists" regarding that person's immigration status. what does that even mean? according to your post, brown skin and a poncho is enough to be reasonably suspicious. and, again, i'm not arguing that illegal immigrants aren't lawbreakers. i'm saying that not every hispanic-looking person is an illegal. you seem not to care about the differentiation. just round 'em up and sort 'em out!

 

Third, Governemnt abusing it's powers is in a completely different realm than what we are dealing with here, in my opinion (I'm certain that the constitutionality of this law will be tested) The lack of government wielding their power is at issues here. The federal government is mandated to secure the borders and to provide protections against foreign states and actors of those states. In the case of immigartion they are not doing this. One may then interpret the feds inaction on this issue to then force it to look at this as a states rights issue. Thus, the state had to take over the role as the actor in ensuring that illegals were dealt with and penalized.

 

agree to disagree.

 

Finally, you state that you don't know the best way to determine who is here illegally, but you still choose to denegrate those that passed this bill. THis is a huge problem with this country, people will complain about a law, or the manne rin which something is done but offer no alternatives or solutions to rectify the wrong which the perceive is being meted out. And, in many cases when I see explanations like this I believe it is more driven by one's political affiliation rather than through intrrospection and true thought.

 

All I'm looking for here is for someone to tell me of a better way to idnetify the illegals that are currently in the state of AZ.

 

ETA: In most of these posts, like Cre8tiff's, people are making assumptions and profiles in their responses. Heck, you have even don it in your own post.

 

Also, I think they should change the name of this law, using a phrase abuddy of mine uses on the last day of deer season... call it the "if it's brown, it's down" law.

 

you act as if you asked me to answer what's four plus two, or how many stars are on the flag. if the answer to your question were so simple that some random person on a fantasy football message board had the solution, don't you think it would've been solved by now? only people who have an alternative idea are allowed to criticize a law? furthermore, where in my posts did i refer to either political party, or how i felt about them? it makes no difference to me who authored the law, who signed it, or what party they belong to. but, hey, you want to make that assumption about me, go ahead. is that what you mean by introspection and true thought?

[SEC=UGA]

of course they do. if my kid sees a pot on the stove, she should assume it's hot, even if it's not. that's far different from judging someone based on skin color.

Children will have a tendency to aglommerate with those that are similar to them, it will happen, they will learn prejudice through life experiences you have very little control over it, it is innate. Many studies have shown that no matter how integrated one's life is, what their parents teach them, kids will react in a predictable manner regarding people who look different than they. Your kids will be no different

 

 

 

"white dude in a blue polo shirt" is a description. "black man in a jogging suit" is a description. the law provides no such guidance. it says that police can question someone where "reasonable suspicion exists" regarding that person's immigration status. what does that even mean? according to your post, brown skin and a poncho is enough to be reasonably suspicious. and, again, i'm not arguing that illegal immigrants aren't lawbreakers. i'm saying that not every hispanic-looking person is an illegal. you seem not to care about the differentiation. just round 'em up and sort 'em out!

You have to round them up and sort them out. THe description they are looking for, though they will not admit it is, Mexican, in certain areas at certain times, behaving in a certain manner. It is profiling and has to be done to make the law effective. Everyday citizens who appear Mexican will be questioned and they need to get the hell over it and carry their drivers license with them

 

 

you act as if you asked me to answer what's four plus two, or how many stars are on the flag. if the answer to your question were so simple that some random person on a fantasy football message board had the solution, don't you think it would've been solved by now? only people who have an alternative idea are allowed to criticize a law? furthermore, where in my posts did i refer to either political party, or how i felt about them? it makes no difference to me who authored the law, who signed it, or what party they belong to. but, hey, you want to make that assumption about me, go ahead. is that what you mean by introspection and true thought?

I did ask you to answer a simple question, you state the arizona law is, not your words, idiotic and that they could have come up with something better. What would be a better way for them to identify illegal Mexicans? By stature, IQ, a relay race, weekly mandatory horse riding competitions? The problem hasn't been solved yet because no one was willing to burn the political capitol to do it.

 

YOu are correct, sir, I made assumptions about your political affiliation, my apologies if they were inaccurate. I was making a biased assumption based on your post on this topic.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

You had me at aglommerate.

[Perchoutofwater]

You had me at aglommerate.

 

I'll admit to looking it up. I'll also admit to thinking he is pretty much wrong in what he supposes about children. Kids learn their prejudices from their parents, their teachers, their older siblings, and other people they look up too. My toe-headed daughter has 8 really, really good friends. Two of those friends are black, two are mexican-american, and four are white. The two black friends were the kids she was sat by in 1st grade, the two mexican-american kids she has played soccer with for 4 years. One of the white kids is from school, two are from soccer, and one is her cousin. You ask her who she wants to have come over for a party those will be the first 8 kids listed every time. If she asks to have someone spend the night, it is going to be one of those kids every time. She has spent the night with all but one of those kids.

 

ETA: The only black person she doesn't like that I know of is Obama, and she probably got that prejudice from her parents.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Perchoutofwater

[bpwallace49]

I wonder what the response on these boards would be if every white person was stopped at random and had to prove their citizenship . . .

 

But considering how quickly the hispanic community has been increasing as a demographic in the US, maybe they will change it in 20 years . . .

[SEC=UGA]

You had me at aglommerate.

 

I never know when you're agreeing with me or being condescending... And, honestly, I like that.

 

You know, this is one of those areas where it is really painful and tough on everyone to do what I feel is right for the country and people of AZ. I hate it that we do have to profile and I hate it that prejudices do exist. I hate it that I can't walk into a room and begin to socialize with the first person I run into, rather that I scan a room and find people that "appear" to be like me. Quite frankly, life becomes boring when you are around a bunch of like minded and similar appearing people. That's why I like this forum so much is because you can branch outside of that and associate with people that likely you wouldn't have if we were all in a big conference room together.

[SEC=UGA]

I wonder what the response on these boards would be if every white person was stopped at random and had to prove their citizenship . . .

 

But considering how quickly the hispanic community has been increasing as a demographic in the US, maybe they will change it in 20 years . . .

 

Evry white person in this forum wh has gone out of the country and reenters is stopped and their citizenship checked. The problem facing AZ is that many of the Mexicans failed to go through the aforementioned channel of being stopped and checked. So, I blame them for the inconvenience that is being forced upon the Mexican citizens of the US.

 

And it won't change in 20 years because they will have us all placed in internemnt camps where we do nothing but make sombreros, tortillas and pinatas. Personally, I want to be in the pinata department, I freaking love papier mache...

[SEC=UGA]

I'll admit to looking it up. I'll also admit to thinking he is pretty much wrong in what he supposes about children. Kids learn their prejudices from their parents, their teachers, their older siblings, and other people they look up too. My toe-headed daughter has 8 really, really good friends. Two of those friends are black, two are mexican-american, and four are white. The two black friends were the kids she was sat by in 1st grade, the two mexican-american kids she has played soccer with for 4 years. One of the white kids is from school, two are from soccer, and one is her cousin. You ask her who she wants to have come over for a party those will be the first 8 kids listed every time. If she asks to have someone spend the night, it is going to be one of those kids every time. She has spent the night with all but one of those kids.

 

ETA: The only black person she doesn't like that I know of is Obama, and she probably got that prejudice from her parents.

 

 

Pfft...

[Perchoutofwater]

I wonder what the response on these boards would be if every white person was stopped at random and had to prove their citizenship . . .

 

But considering how quickly the hispanic community has been increasing as a demographic in the US, maybe they will change it in 20 years . . .

 

I have an issue with random stops, but I fully support it during routine traffic stops, when applying for a drivers license, a loan, lease agreements, etc...

[Perchoutofwater]

Obama takes immigration reform off the table, because his base want's amnesty, and the dems would get murdered at the polls come November if amnesty was grated.

[bpwallace49]

I have an issue with random stops, but I fully support it during routine traffic stops, when applying for a drivers license, a loan, lease agreements, etc...

 

Perch a KEY part of this is empowering the cops to do EXACTLY THAT. Random stops if they "look" illegal. That is my biggest problem with the legislation. It is a recipe for abuse.

 

I agree with you on the second sentence in every way. Now combine that with some real penalties for businesses that continually hire illegals and we might have something going here . . . .

[Pope Flick]

Obama takes immigration reform off the table, because his base want's amnesty, and the dems would get murdered at the polls come November if amnesty was grated.

[wiegie]

No I think what he supports is the repeal of the anchor baby law, which would be really helpful in fighting illegal immigration.

You mean the part of the Constitution that says that all persons born in the US are US citizens?

 

I thought you were a big fan of the Constitution.

[Lady.hawke]

You mean the part of the Constitution that says that all persons born in the US are US citizens?

 

I thought you were a big fan of the Constitution.

 

You quoted the Constitution truly. Amendments and opinions have declared all that are born here as simply "citizens." Perhaps you should be so diligent as to who is a "Natural Born Citizen." I dare you.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Lady.hawke

[Lady.hawke]

I do not have the time to read upthread and link this message to the proper quotes.

 

My feeling is that if you are in the United States legally and look like a targeted group - name the group - Hispanic, Muslim, etc. - you should be proud to turn over your documentation to the authority questioning you and thank them for keeping YOUR country safe. If you have a problem with that, I would prefer that you just leave. Go back where you came from.

 

There is no other way to do this. All the borders should be closed. Fenced. Everyone crossing should be questioned. Period. Those legally here need to man up and not be so offended by questioning.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Lady.hawke

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

I do not have the time to read upthread and link this message to the proper quotes.

 

My feeling is that if you are in the United States legally and look like a targeted group - name the group - Hispanic, Muslim, etc. - you should be proud to turn over your documentation to the authority questioning you and thank them for keeping YOUR country safe. If you have a problem with that, I would prefer that you just leave. Go back where you came from.

 

There is no other way to do this. All the borders should be closed. Fenced. Everyone crossing should be questioned. Period. Those legally here need to man up and not be so offended by questioning.

 

Wow. I guess the Japanese Americans should have been proud to serve their time in those internment camps too.

Edited April 30, 2010 by CaP'N GRuNGe