tax tsunami coming

[dmarc117]

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/A...he-Horizon.aspx

 

[Ursa Majoris]

a raft of tax hikes — including a return of the death tax

 

I got this far before giving up.

 

The dead don't get taxed, the inheritors do, for the love of God. When the taxation takes place, the dead are already pushing up the daisies. You can't tax the dead - they're f'n dead! Why is this so difficult to understand?

[Rebellab]

I got this far before giving up.

 

The dead don't get taxed, the inheritors do, for the love of God. When the taxation takes place, the dead are already pushing up the daisies. You can't tax the dead - they're f'n dead! Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

 

I have to disagree. The deceased person's estate still owns the money and assets therefore they are taxing the dead. It is a killer to family farms and small businesses. My grandfather has worked hard all his life, when he dies if it is not in the next few months it will take all the cash he has to pay the inheritance tax owed on the land that he owns. So much for working hard to leave something for your children.

 

Heard on public radio the other day and I am too lazy to look it up, when Steinbrenner died because it was in 2010 the federal government got jipped out of $400 some million.

[Ursa Majoris]

I have to disagree. The deceased person's estate still owns the money and assets therefore they are taxing the dead. It is a killer to family farms and small businesses. My grandfather has worked hard all his life, when he dies if it is not in the next few months it will take all the cash he has to pay the inheritance tax owed on the land that he owns. So much for working hard to leave something for your children.

 

Heard on public radio the other day and I am too lazy to look it up, when Steinbrenner died because it was in 2010 the federal government got jipped out of $400 some million.

The tax is on the transfer of money, just as all monetary transactions are taxed in some form or another. The estate is owned by the inheritors.

 

I don't agree with the ridiculous 55% that this is slated to come back as but I also don't agree it should be untaxed when every other transaction is taxed. Estate planning gets rid of a lot of the liability and there are a lot of exemptions. I'd reform it so that businesses / farms passed on would be exempt as long as they continued as businesses / farms under the original inheritor for a period of, say, five years. For damn sure I'd tax inherited stocks, bonds, cash, etc though.

[Jackass]

The tax is on the transfer of money, just as all monetary transactions are taxed in some form or another. The estate is owned by the inheritors.

 

I don't agree with the ridiculous 55% that this is slated to come back as but I also don't agree it should be untaxed when every other transaction is taxed. Estate planning gets rid of a lot of the liability and there are a lot of exemptions. I'd reform it so that businesses / farms passed on would be exempt as long as they continued as businesses / farms under the original inheritor for a period of, say, five years. For damn sure I'd tax inherited stocks, bonds, cash, etc though.

 

i agree. seems like the obvious solution is to scale the tax so it hits at like 3 mill at like 35% and increases to 40% at 10 mill, 45% at 20 mill, etc. and caps out at 55% - or something like that.

[SteelBunz]

I have to disagree. The deceased person's estate still owns the money and assets therefore they are taxing the dead. It is a killer to family farms and small businesses. My grandfather has worked hard all his life, when he dies if it is not in the next few months it will take all the cash he has to pay the inheritance tax owed on the land that he owns. So much for working hard to leave something for your children.

 

Heard on public radio the other day and I am too lazy to look it up, when Steinbrenner died because it was in 2010 the federal government got jipped out of $400 some million.

I'll never understand the logic behind inheritance tax (other than a greedy government). Most of that money has been taxed to death (pun intended) WHILE the deceased was living! Unless the money was still in some sort of pension or IRA or Roth (pretax dollars), then it's all been taxed...probably way more than once. Taxed when you make it, taxed when you buy anything (meaning...that asset should be free and clear now.....right? ), when you make more money by investing money already taxed....it's taxed again. On and on. And ANY insurances paid for with after tax dollars should NEVER...under ANY circumstances....be taxable. By anyone.

 

And even then...all the pretax assets should only be taxed at income tax rates after the 1.2 mill threshold.

 

Use it or lose it has new meaning......doesn't it? So all you folks thinking......I'll save every penny.....and leave it to the kids. Maybe dole some out to them now. They could probably use it sooner rather than later. If it helps them get through losing their job.....or having their house foreclosed on....isn't it much more useful now, than 20 years from now when you pass away?

 

Don't cut your nose off despite your face or anything.......LOL. You still need to ensure you can live comfortably for the time you are around with us.

 

Yes.....some inheritance is a nice gesture. But the kindest thing you can do is make sure everything YOU owe is paid.

 

Just saying.

 

Uh.....yeah....I'm mad about all these tax relief measures not being renewed. Very sneaky way to increase taxes without calling it a tax hike.

Bastages.

[SteelBunz]

I guess I should point out that I'm not actually opposed to taxing the appreciation of assets passed on. That's the one part that has always made sense to me.....lol.

[yo mama]

I have to disagree. The deceased person's estate still owns the money and assets therefore they are taxing the dead. It is a killer to family farms and small businesses. My grandfather has worked hard all his life, when he dies if it is not in the next few months it will take all the cash he has to pay the inheritance tax owed on the land that he owns. So much for working hard to leave something for your children.

 

Heard on public radio the other day and I am too lazy to look it up, when Steinbrenner died because it was in 2010 the federal government got jipped out of $400 some million.

You've entered my professional lair. I fight the IRS - primarily on maters of estate and gift taxation.

 

Suffice it to say, I hold a professional level of disdain for the collection of estate tax. But, in all fairness, through out the many years I've been battling the IRS I've never once heard of a farm or small business failing because of estate tax. For one, farms and small business get various breaks from the estate tax that are not available to others. Secondarily, the estate tax can be planned around. To the extent it blind-sides a taxpayer, that's largely a function of being a penny wise, pound foolish when it comes to estate planning. In truth, the top two killers of generational wealth are: (1) the ineptitude of 2nd and 3rd generations in managing such assets; and (2) divorce and creditors other that the tax man.

 

And, just so we're clear, the estate tax is an excise tax on the RIGHT to transfer property. It is not a tax on the property itself, or a tax on a person. While the end result may be the same to the beneficiaries, there's no reason we can't use the correct nomenclature.

 

(But your're right about the Steinbrenner estate).

[Perchoutofwater]

My biggest problem with it is that only the "rich" are taxed. If we taxed every estate at income tax levels, then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. The rate at which it is taxed is ridiculous. I agree with Yo Mama that the estate or death tax can be planned around, but that it also costs quite a bit of money to do so, money that could be put back in to the business or farm to help it expand and employ more people, instead of protecting the business or farm from the IRS.

 

I was really thinking of offing my parents this year until Polk threatened to come after me if I did anything to my father.

[Yukon Cornelius]

You've entered my professional lair. I fight the IRS - primarily on maters of estate and gift taxation.

 

Suffice it to say, I hold a professional level of disdain for the collection of estate tax. But, in all fairness, through out the many years I've been battling the IRS I've never once heard of a farm or small business failing because of estate tax. For one, farms and small business get various breaks from the estate tax that are not available to others. Secondarily, the estate tax can be planned around. To the extent it blind-sides a taxpayer, that's largely a function of being a penny wise, pound foolish when it comes to estate planning. In truth, the top two killers of generational wealth are: (1) the ineptitude of 2nd and 3rd generations in managing such assets; and (2) divorce and creditors other that the tax man.

 

And, just so we're clear, the estate tax is an excise tax on the RIGHT to transfer property. It is not a tax on the property itself, or a tax on a person. While the end result may be the same to the beneficiaries, there's no reason we can't use the correct nomenclature.

 

(But your're right about the Steinbrenner estate).

u mean those lies are not true

 

there are ways of getting around the 55% as yo mama probably knows.

[dmarc117]

You've entered my professional lair. I fight the IRS - primarily on maters of estate and gift taxation.

 

Suffice it to say, I hold a professional level of disdain for the collection of estate tax. But, in all fairness, through out the many years I've been battling the IRS I've never once heard of a farm or small business failing because of estate tax. For one, farms and small business get various breaks from the estate tax that are not available to others. Secondarily, the estate tax can be planned around. To the extent it blind-sides a taxpayer, that's largely a function of being a penny wise, pound foolish when it comes to estate planning. In truth, the top two killers of generational wealth are: (1) the ineptitude of 2nd and 3rd generations in managing such assets; and (2) divorce and creditors other that the tax man.

 

And, just so we're clear, the estate tax is an excise tax on the RIGHT to transfer property. It is not a tax on the property itself, or a tax on a person. While the end result may be the same to the beneficiaries, there's no reason we can't use the correct nomenclature.

 

(But your're right about the Steinbrenner estate).

 

 

well if creditors are coming after the estate, that estate wasnt really owned by the deceased. like bunz said, dont leave bills for the living.

 

its like these foreclosure peeps screaming they are coming after my house! umm, its not your house, its the banks until u satisfy the loan.

 

i just cant agree with getting taxed on something i worked my ass off for that has already been taxed. everything i do in life is for my family. and then uncle sam wants to take it. great.

Edited July 23, 2010 by dmarc117

[Ursa Majoris]

My biggest problem with it is that only the "rich" are taxed. If we taxed every estate at income tax levels, then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it.

I could go for that with a sliding scale starting at very low e.g. 1% and going up to a maximum of, say, 33%.

 

At the same time, I'd remove the Social Security payments cap. After all, if all people's dollars are to be taxed, that would only be fair, right?

[The Irish Doggy]

I suspect this is all just politics. Just when the public gets good and riled up about 55% and so on, Congress comes in to "save the day" in time for the new election cycle so they can claim they lowered taxes.

 

I tend to agree with the general unfairness of taxing that which has already been taxed. However, the estate doesn't get off completely free. There are other considerations. As others indicated as well, I'd still 100% support taxing the capital gains on stocks, real estate, etc. for example.

Edited July 23, 2010 by The Irish Doggy

[Ursa Majoris]

I suspect this is all just politics. Just when the public gets good and riled up about 55% and so on, Congress comes in to "save the day" in time for the new election cycle so they can claim they lowered taxes.

 

I tend to agree with the general unfairness of taxing that which has already been taxed. However, the estate doesn't get off completely free. There are other considerations. As others indicated as well, I'd still 100% support taxing the capital gains on stocks, real estate, etc. for example.

In general, all assets / money are taxed throughout their life. I still believe it's transactions / transfers that are taxed. If I give above a certain sum to my kids while alive, it's taxed because in effect it's income to them. Why should it be different for new income as a result of a death? It's still income to the inheritors, isn't it?

[Square]

Maybe I should just start saving cash when I get old and hide it in some safety deposit box. I can just leave the key for my children and they won't report the few hundred Ks that I leave them. I'm guessing there are more sophisticated ways, but I'm guessing why that is some old people have money stashed in mattresses and the like.

[Square]

In general, all assets / money are taxed throughout their life. I still believe it's transactions / transfers that are taxed. If I give above a certain sum to my kids while alive, it's taxed because in effect it's income to them. Why should it be different for new income as a result of a death? It's still income to the inheritors, isn't it?

Maybe it's "transactions" that are being taxed but it still seems like a way for the government to double dip and play semantics with the reason why. It's like the ol' "Social Security is paid half by your employer" nonsense. It makes the crap-sandwich sound more palatable to some, but it's still just a bunch of chit.

[rattsass]

Maybe it's "transactions" that are being taxed but it still seems like a way for the government to double dip and play semantics with the reason why. It's like the ol' "Social Security is paid half by your employer" nonsense. It makes the crap-sandwich sound more palatable to some, but it's still just a bunch of chit.

Yes, let's tax all your stuff that you have already paid taxes on all your life. A wonderful reward. Let's go ahead and just take the other 45% for carbon tax on our rotting corpses.

[yo mama]

well if creditors are coming after the estate, that estate wasnt really owned by the deceased. like bunz said, dont leave bills for the living.

 

its like these foreclosure peeps screaming they are coming after my house! umm, its not your house, its the banks until u satisfy the loan.

 

i just cant agree with getting taxed on something i worked my ass off for that has already been taxed. everything i do in life is for my family. and then uncle sam wants to take it. great.

Now let's get something straight here, because its critical to an objective understanding of this issue:

 

Under 2009 law (and what most folks think will be 2011 law) a married couple can leave the first $7mm of NET assets to whoever they want free of estate tax. That same couple can leave an unlimited amount to charity (even their own private foundation) free of estate tax. Thus, most people who have a conceptual problem with the estate tax will never actually be affected by it. For those very few people who will be affected by estate tax, American was a fertile ground for them to generate and accumulate massive wealth. Is it really so objectionable that American get a return on its investment? (Especially given the variety of planning tools that can minimize the tax's impact).

 

In the meantime, if you eliminate estate tax revenues where do you think the government is going to make up the economic short fall? That's right: the income tax. (Because it sure as manure isn't going to be through reduced spending). Should we all pay more income tax so that less than 1% of society can roll massive amounts of wealth from one generation to the next tax-free? From a policy perspective, the estate tax is a useful tool to prevent feudal, dynastic wealth that goes untaxed while the rest of us wage-earners get the crap taxed out of us.

Edited July 23, 2010 by yo mama

[Puddy]

Now let's get something straight here, because its critical to an objective understanding of this issue:

 

Under 2009 law (and what most folks think will be 2011 law) a married couple can leave the first $7mm of NET assets to whoever they want free of estate tax. That same couple can leave an unlimited amount to charity (even their own private foundation) free of estate tax. Thus, most people who have a conceptual problem with the estate tax will never actually be affected by it. For those very few people who will be affected by estate tax, American was a fertile ground for them to generate and accumulate massive wealth. Is it really so objectionable that American get a return on its investment? (Especially given the variety of planning tools that can minimize the tax's impact).

 

In the meantime, if you eliminate estate tax revenues where do you think the government is going to make up the economic short fall? That's right: the income tax. (Because it sure as manure isn't going to be through reduced spending). Should we all pay more income tax so that less than 1% of society can roll massive amounts of wealth from one generation to the next tax-free? From a policy perspective, the estate tax is a useful tool to prevent feudal, dynastic wealth that goes untaxed while the rest of us wage-earners get the crap taxed out of us.

Welcome Back!

[Pope Flick]

Now let's get something straight here, because its critical to an objective understanding of this issue:

 

Under 2009 law (and what most folks think will be 2011 law) a married couple can leave the first $7mm of NET assets to whoever they want free of estate tax. That same couple can leave an unlimited amount to charity (even their own private foundation) free of estate tax. Thus, most people who have a conceptual problem with the estate tax will never actually be affected by it. For those very few people who will be affected by estate tax, American was a fertile ground for them to generate and accumulate massive wealth. Is it really so objectionable that American get a return on its investment? (Especially given the variety of planning tools that can minimize the tax's impact).

 

In the meantime, if you eliminate estate tax revenues where do you think the government is going to make up the economic short fall? That's right: the income tax. (Because it sure as manure isn't going to be through reduced spending). Should we all pay more income tax so that less than 1% of society can roll massive amounts of wealth from one generation to the next tax-free? From a policy perspective, the estate tax is a useful tool to prevent feudal, dynastic wealth that goes untaxed while the rest of us wage-earners get the crap taxed out of us.

 

 

Socialist.

[dmarc117]

Now let's get something straight here, because its critical to an objective understanding of this issue:

 

Under 2009 law (and what most folks think will be 2011 law) a married couple can leave the first $7mm of NET assets to whoever they want free of estate tax. That same couple can leave an unlimited amount to charity (even their own private foundation) free of estate tax. Thus, most people who have a conceptual problem with the estate tax will never actually be affected by it. For those very few people who will be affected by estate tax, American was a fertile ground for them to generate and accumulate massive wealth. Is it really so objectionable that American get a return on its investment? (Especially given the variety of planning tools that can minimize the tax's impact).

 

In the meantime, if you eliminate estate tax revenues where do you think the government is going to make up the economic short fall? That's right: the income tax. (Because it sure as manure isn't going to be through reduced spending). Should we all pay more income tax so that less than 1% of society can roll massive amounts of wealth from one generation to the next tax-free? From a policy perspective, the estate tax is a useful tool to prevent feudal, dynastic wealth that goes untaxed while the rest of us wage-earners get the crap taxed out of us.

 

 

i see your point. maybe the levels could go up? a tiered system starting at 5mil?

[yo mama]

i see your point. maybe the levels could go up? a tiered system starting at 5mil?

Actually, there is a laddered tax rate but it maxes out at 45% (or, at least it used to in 2009). And when you consider that the first $3.5mm isn't taxed at all (for a single person; its $7mm for a married couple) the effective rate can be substantially less than 45%. For example, if a single person died with $5mm of net assets the effective rate of tax would only be about 13.5% (i.e., tax of $675,000). And if those assets are made up of a family business, farm, or "for profit" real property the estate tax liability can be spread over a 14 year payment plan where the first 4 years are interest-only.

 

I dunno. Seems like a lot of people have very strong feeling about the estate tax (one way or the other) without really understanding it. That said, the IRS has become (IMO) very abusive in its enforcement and collection of estate tax. So its not like there isn't plenty to be angry about.

 

ETA: a recent proposal would have raised the tax-exempt amount from $3.5mm per person to $5mm per person, but it got shot down. There are currently about 8-10 estate tax "reform" proposals floating around Congress. Don't even get me started on how chivesy Congress is for having failed to act on estate tax reform before now. If the exemption amount falls back to $1mm per person in 2011 because Congress couldn't figure something out, they should all be tarred and feathered. Because Congress had 11 years to deal with this, but hasn't. EVERYONE thought Congress was going to get its act together by the end of 2009. Heck, I even went to Washington DC with a delegation from the California State Bar to urge various reforms. But it all got pushed to the wayside because Congress was fixated on only two things: (1) terrorism; and (2) health care.

Edited July 23, 2010 by yo mama

[yo mama]

Welcome Back!

I missed you. :heart:

[Savage Beatings]

The Death Tax is the ultimate example of the unspoken government position that every dollar belongs to them, and if we are lucky they will allow us to have some of it back for our own use.

[Ursa Majoris]

The Death Tax is the ultimate example of the unspoken government position that every dollar belongs to them, and if we are lucky they will allow us to have some of it back for our own use.

Death tax. Unspoken government position.