Obama proposes letting the jobless sue for discrimination

[Perchoutofwater]

Obama proposes letting the jobless sue for discrimination

By Zachary Roth | The Lookout – 10 hrs ago

 

Job fair attendees look over a recruiting table. AP Photo/Nick Ut

Advocates for the unemployed have cheered a push by the Obama administration to ban discrimination against the jobless. But business groups and their allies are calling the effort unnecessary and counterproductive.

 

The job creation bill that President Obama sent to Congress earlier this month includes a provision that would allow unsuccessful job applicants to sue if they think a company of 15 more employees denied them a job because they were unemployed.

 

The provision would ban employment ads that explicitly declare the unemployed ineligible, with phrases like "Jobless need not apply." As The Lookout has reported, such ads appear to have proliferated in recent years, prompting an inquiry by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

 

Democratic lawmakers in both the House and the Senate have introduced similar measures. Obama said recently that discrimination against the unemployed makes "absolutely no sense," especially because many people find themselves out of work through no fault of their own.

 

Advocates for employers oppose the proposed ban. "We do not see a need for it," Michael Eastman of the Chamber of Commerce told the New York Times.

 

Lawrence Lorber, a labor law specialist who represents employers, told the paper the president's proposal "opens another avenue of employment litigation and nuisance lawsuits."

 

Louie Gohmert, a Republican representative from Texas, went further. He told the Times that the proposal would send the following message: "If you're unemployed and you go to apply for a job, and you're not hired for that job, see a lawyer. You may be able to file a claim because you got discriminated against because you were unemployed."

 

The current downturn is characterized by a relatively low rate of layoffs, but still high unemployment. Many of the jobless have been out of work for an extended period. Around 14 million Americans are officially unemployed, of whom more than 6 million are considered "long-term unemployed," because they've been out of work for six months or more. The average duration of joblessness is currently 40 weeks, the highest in more than 60 years.

 

There is evidence that when people are out of work for an extended period, their skills atrophy and it becomes increasingly difficult for them to find new work.

 

Earlier this year, New Jersey passed a bill banning ads that tell the jobless not to apply. But it did not go as far as Obama's proposal, because it didn't explicitly allow workers to sue if they thought they were denied a job because they were unemployed.

 

Link

 

I've found the bolded section to be very true. There were several times in my company's history that we had superintendents that were not working for long periods, whether it be because of the economy or because projects getting postponed. We kept them on salary the whole time, and in some cases they were paid to sit at home for long periods of time. I can remember one guy that actually had 18 months off due to a hospital we did a lot of work with specifically asking for him and then postponing the project. After each of these long periods of no production we had to watch them very closely as they would make mistakes they normally wouldn't make. Additionally we found that often the first few months they lacked motivation.

 

I have not been working for a few months now, while I've been determining what I want to do. I've found that my lack of production has caused me to be less motivated as well. I used to keep an immaculate yard, but now it looks horrible. I should have mowed it a week ago, and I keep procrastinating, which is something I wouldn't have done 6 months ago. I need to get some information to a CPA about a company I'm interested in buying, but have sat on it for two days now, and really don't have a good reason as to why I've sat on it. In the back of my mind I'm wondering if I'm not making a decision on the business just yet because deer season is coming up. While I hunted more last year than I have in any 5 or 6 years combined, prior to that I was lucky if I got out to the lease more than two long weekends a year. Now I'm thinking do I really want to spend a bunch of time getting to know a new business during deer season. All my life I've been a very hard work, never shying from working long hours, but now after a few months off I find my priorities are a little screwed up. How much more screwed up would they be if in lieu of my savings paying me to sit at home, someone else was paying me to sit at home?

[delusions of grandeur]

Link

 

I've found the bolded section to be very true. There were several times in my company's history that we had superintendents that were not working for long periods, whether it be because of the economy or because projects getting postponed. We kept them on salary the whole time, and in some cases they were paid to sit at home for long periods of time. I can remember one guy that actually had 18 months off due to a hospital we did a lot of work with specifically asking for him and then postponing the project. After each of these long periods of no production we had to watch them very closely as they would make mistakes they normally wouldn't make. Additionally we found that often the first few months they lacked motivation.

 

I have not been working for a few months now, while I've been determining what I want to do. I've found that my lack of production has caused me to be less motivated as well. I used to keep an immaculate yard, but now it looks horrible. I should have mowed it a week ago, and I keep procrastinating, which is something I wouldn't have done 6 months ago. I need to get some information to a CPA about a company I'm interested in buying, but have sat on it for two days now, and really don't have a good reason as to why I've sat on it. In the back of my mind I'm wondering if I'm not making a decision on the business just yet because deer season is coming up. While I hunted more last year than I have in any 5 or 6 years combined, prior to that I was lucky if I got out to the lease more than two long weekends a year. Now I'm thinking do I really want to spend a bunch of time getting to know a new business during deer season. All my life I've been a very hard work, never shying from working long hours, but now after a few months off I find my priorities are a little screwed up. How much more screwed up would they be if in lieu of my savings paying me to sit at home, someone else was paying me to sit at home?

Hold on, so are you really trying to say that because of your own laziness because of unemployment, that employers have a legitimate reason to not hire qualified unemployed folks?As someone who's had a really tough time time gaining full-time employment in my fields since I left a bad situation of a job, I take much offense to that...

 

No, I do not think that lawsuits and bans are the answer to unemployment by any means, but that's a pretty insensitive view to take in an extremely tough job market. I'm doing my best to make lemonade out of lemons myself, but those without the means to do so are not necessarily any more lazy or less motivated than full-time employees, and in many cases it's the opposite. Maybe you have a nice enough nest-egg to be lazy, but there are thousands if not millions who would love nothing more than to be overworked.

Edited September 28, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[TheGrunt]

Hold on, so are you really trying to say that because of your own laziness because of unemployment, that employers have a legitimate reason to not hire qualified unemployed folks?As someone who's had a really tough time time gaining full-time employment in my fields since I left a bad situation of a job, I take much offense to that...

 

No, I do not think that lawsuits and bans are the answer to unemployment by any means, but that's a pretty insensitive view to take in an extremely tough job market. I'm doing my best to make lemonade out of lemons myself, but those without the means to do so are not necessarily any more lazy or less motivated than full-time employees, and in many cases it's the opposite. Maybe you have a nice enough nest-egg to be lazy, but there are thousands if not millions who would love nothing more than to be overworked.

It probably depends on the individual. Some people will be proactive and improve their skills while unemployed, and have something to show for it, while others are complacent and do nothing while collecting unemployment checks.

[Perchoutofwater]

Hold on, so are you really trying to say that because of your own laziness because of unemployment, that employers have a legitimate reason to not hire qualified unemployed folks?As someone who's had a really tough time time gaining full-time employment in my fields since I left a bad situation of a job, I take much offense to that...

 

No, I do not think that lawsuits and bans are the answer to unemployment by any means, but that's a pretty insensitive view to take in an extremely tough job market. I'm doing my best to make lemonade out of lemons myself, but those without the means to do so are not necessarily any more lazy or less motivated than full-time employees, and in many cases it's the opposite. Maybe you have a nice enough nest-egg to be lazy, but there are thousands if not millions who would love nothing more than to be overworked.

 

That is not really what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is the longer someone is not productive, the harder it is for them to become productive again. When you are accustomed to working 60+ hours a week, you get into a routine and manage your time better than when you are not working. When you go back to work you have to learn to manage your time again. Muscles when they go unused atrophy, the longer they are sedentary the more atrophy. There was a time when I had a 600# squat, but I took ten years off from the gym. I've been working out for about 5 months very hard. My work outs are as hard as they have ever been, but I can only squat 405# right now. If anything I'm working out harder now than I did then, but due to a long time off my muscles have atrophied and my technique isn't as good as it once was. This happens to both your body and your brain. It has been my experience as an employer when an employee comes back from a long time off whether paid or unpaid, whether due to the companies circumstance or their own they are not as sharp mentally as they were before. Likewise they lack the physical stamina they had before. They often do not manage their time as well as they did before. I'm not saying that it is their fault, I actually think that it is a natural phenomenon. It is also in my view a legitimate reason for employers to seek others before they seek an equally qualified person that has been unemployed for a long period of time. I don't view myself as lazy. You can ask my wife, and she will tell you I'm one of the hardest workers she knows. Having said that, having not gone to work on a regular basis these last few months, I'm seeing in my self the same thing I've seen in my employees in the past after long periods of inactivity. So I'm not saying they are lazy but rather rusty or atrophied, though there are definitely some that are lazy. If I needed the money you can bet that I would be getting a job tomorrow. It may not be the greatest job, but I'd be getting one. Right now I'm about to go crazy with how unstructured my life is. Hopefully I'll be buying a business in the next month, if that falls through then I'll start one in the next three months. If I don't, I have a good idea that my wife will divorce me because I'm driving both of us crazy.

 

One thing I can tell you as an employer, I'd look on someone that took a job below their skill level as a temporary measure until they could find employment at their level as being more motivated and more than likely a harder worker and better employee as someone that is collecting an unemployment check. I had over a dozen unsolicited good job offers when it became public we were closing our business. I bet if I were to go back to them all today, a third of them wouldn't hire me. The other two thirds would probably hire me after I explained I was weighing my options about opening or buying a business, but would probably pay me less today than they would have a few months ago, because they know it would take a while for me to get back up to speed.

[WaterMan]

What's the use to increasing your skills when McDonald's and gas stations are the only ones hiring? The best companies at capitalism have all ready shipped overseas.

[SEC=UGA]

What's the use to increasing your skills when McDonald's and gas stations are the only ones hiring? The best companies at capitalism have all ready shipped overseas.

 

In another thread weren't you urging Wal-Mart and the likes to hire more cashiers due to the recession and now you're belittleing such work?

[SayItAintSoJoe]

It probably depends on the individual. Some people will be proactive and improve their skills while unemployed, and have something to show for it, while others are complacent and do nothing while collecting unemployment checks.

 

Exactly...and this is what the interviewing process is for. To help you determine if someone is right for the job. To just say people that are unemployed will not be considered is not right, IMO.

 

I have not been working for a few months now, while I've been determining what I want to do. I've found that my lack of production has caused me to be less motivated as well. I used to keep an immaculate yard, but now it looks horrible. I should have mowed it a week ago, and I keep procrastinating, which is something I wouldn't have done 6 months ago.

 

It sounds like you're in a rut which is completely understandable considering you had to close a business that meant a lot to you. I would be in a rut too.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

So, full employment for lawyers then.

[SEC=UGA]

Perch, If I had any cash, I'd hire ya.

[WaterMan]

In another thread weren't you urging Wal-Mart and the likes to hire more cashiers due to the recession and now you're belittleing such work?

 

I'm sorry you think that's what I was doing. I didn't say that.

[SEC=UGA]

I'm sorry you think that's what I was doing. I didn't say that.

 

 

I love how Wal-Mart and all groceries stores around here have many registers they could run but don't.

 

They usually have 2-4 people working register and then 4-6 self check out lines. In an economy where people need jobs, why not open up those registers?

[WaterMan]

and now you're belittleing such work?

 

yeah so how am I belittleing these jobs?

[evil_gop_liars]

Perch, If I had any cash, I'd hire ya.

 

Is your internet connection big enough?

[Ursa Majoris]

Completely pointless regulation, IMO. Hiring managers who don't want unemployed people will simply find another reason to not hire them. Some companies don't hire veterans and that discrimination is completely illegal already. Doesn't make any difference.

 

This is not only unenforceable, it's just food for the lawyers.

[wiegie]

from Perch's link (the part he bolded):

There is evidence that when people are out of work for an extended period, their skills atrophy

This is indeed true--which is a reason why it would be in pretty much everybody's interest to do what we can to get these people back into jobs immediately. Not only is our society wasting human capital today by not enacting a broad jobs program (not necessarily Obama's), we are wasting human capital for the several decades by not doing so.

[Clubfoothead]

I have not been working for a few months now, while I've been determining what I want to do. I've found that my lack of production has caused me to be less motivated as well. I used to keep an immaculate yard, but now it looks horrible. I should have mowed it a week ago, and I keep procrastinating, which is something I wouldn't have done 6 months ago. I need to get some information to a CPA about a company I'm interested in buying, but have sat on it for two days now, and really don't have a good reason as to why I've sat on it. In the back of my mind I'm wondering if I'm not making a decision on the business just yet because deer season is coming up. While I hunted more last year than I have in any 5 or 6 years combined, prior to that I was lucky if I got out to the lease more than two long weekends a year. Now I'm thinking do I really want to spend a bunch of time getting to know a new business during deer season. All my life I've been a very hard work, never shying from working long hours, but now after a few months off I find my priorities are a little screwed up. How much more screwed up would they be if in lieu of my savings paying me to sit at home, someone else was paying me to sit at home?

 

You are really full of $hit.

[Square]

Perch, start working out. You used to complain about becoming a fat ass. If you have time, you might as well use it. Nothing crazy, but even just a 20 - 30 minute walk/jog/run on a treadmill (maybe 3 times a week) might do you some good. Some blood pumping might help as far as getting your head straight. Just my 2cents. I don't really have an opinion on the main topic as it does seem pretty unenforceable (like Ursa already pointed out).

Edited September 28, 2011 by Square

[The Irish Doggy]

While it is true that skills diminish over time, to throw that blanket on all jobless is completely ludicrous.

 

I hope things pick up for you Perch.

[Perchoutofwater]

You are really full of $hit.

 

Another well thought out response from you.

 

Perch, start working out. You used to complain about becoming a fat ass. If you have time, you might as well use it. Nothing crazy, but even just a 20 - 30 minute walk/jog/run on a treadmill (maybe 3 times a week) might do you some good. Some blood pumping might help as far as getting your head straight. Just my 2cents. I don't really have an opinion on the main topic as it does seem pretty unenforceable (like Ursa already pointed out).

 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not depressed, just going a little stir crazy. The lack of structure has me going too many different directions. My wife will come home and I'll have completely reorganized the pantry or our closet. It isn't so much I'm sitting around doing nothing as I've got so many options that I'm really just lacking focus. I actually have lost 60# since January, and have been doing Crossfit since May. I love working out. I think that is probably why my yard is suffering so. I don't want to do it before a workout, and I'm typically too spent to do it after. The point of my rambling above wasn't to incite sympathy or anything like that, it was just to show how the lack of structure that comes with not working affects someone. It was anecdotal evidence of what I had bolded above and what Weigie subsequently agreed with.

[BeeR]

Exactly...and this is what the interviewing process is for. To help you determine if someone is right for the job.

 

Except that the interview process in many (most?) cases is unbelievably flawed and HR people are IMO quite often a joke. Further it's not very hard for most to play the game and be all "eager" in an interview. Being hard-working/motivated day after day on the job is something else.

 

It does vary per person of course but I can see how not being "in the routine" for a long time can make a diff. But the idea that hiring someone already in a job is automatically better than one who isn't ignores or mitigates all the other qualifications, which isn't terribly brilliant. But again we are talking HR........

[Perchoutofwater]

I hope things pick up for you Perch.

 

Things really aren't bad, just a little stir crazy. Like I said I'll either be buying or starting a business in the next few months. I've decided what I'm going to do, I'm just trying to decide if I want to buy the company in that field with the biggest market share in my area, or if I want to go into direct competition with them. I've currently got some CPA's trying to value the business, and see if it is really worth what they are asking for it.

[SEC=UGA]

yeah so how am I belittleing these jobs?

 

The implication that it requires no skills. In other threads you have also implied that these are crap jobs. Thus, you are belittleing the jobs themselves as well as the hard working people who do these jobs.

[Azazello1313]

Completely pointless regulation, IMO. Hiring managers who don't want unemployed people will simply find another reason to not hire them. Some companies don't hire veterans and that discrimination is completely illegal already. Doesn't make any difference.

 

This is not only unenforceable, it's just food for the lawyers.

 

yeah, if anything, this just makes it that much harder for the unemployed to find entree into job openings. employers won't want to get anywhere near them. I would say it is the obama administration's stupidest "jobs" idea ever, but that is a pretty lofty claim.

 

This is indeed true--which is a reason why it would be in pretty much everybody's interest to do what we can to get these people back into jobs immediately. Not only is our society wasting human capital today by not enacting a broad jobs program (not necessarily Obama's), we are wasting human capital for the several decades by not doing so.

 

if you get them into "jobs" that aren't productive and wealth-creating, then you're potentially wasting even more human capital. that is the danger in government make-work jobs, propping up failing industries, government "investment" (corporate welfare) in industries that haven't demonstrated they are sustainable without that subsidy, and so on.

[bushwacked]

[wiegie]

if you get them into "jobs" that aren't productive and wealth-creating, then you're potentially wasting even more human capital. that is the danger in government make-work jobs, propping up failing industries, government "investment" (corporate welfare) in industries that haven't demonstrated they are sustainable without that subsidy, and so on.

I agree with this (and actually said something very similar about it during my Comparative Economic Systems course on Monday).