Tebow stinks.

[Shaman]

The thread will not die!!!

 

Go Kid!!!

[Azazello1313]

Well, at some point the results become pretty tough to argue against.

 

detlef rolls his eyes at your weakness and lack of determination.

[stevegrab]

He will forgive you.

 

Seriously, it's nice to see the progression. Today when the D completely let the team down, the guy stepped up his passing game and managed to put DEN in a position to win yet again. He's still got a lot of work to do - but it's a work in progress that is moving in a positive direction.

 

Could you explain when and how this happened. Was it after the early pick six (without which they need another offensive TD late to get back in the game)? And before the late interception (before the tying score or winning FG, forget which one).

 

Amazing that as soon as the defense gives up more than 15-20 points you claim they completely let the team down. Maybe Tebow should do something more to inspire them to play better, possibly a laying on of the hands or something.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

He has resurrected Demarius Thomas.

[Azazello1313]

just FYI in the second half today:

 

6/9, 173 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT. passer rating of 149.3

 

[detlef]

detlef rolls his eyes at your weakness and lack of determination.

Why would I argue that Tebow did not look great? That would be silly.

 

Not as silly as Bronco implying the D "completely let them down", but silly none the less.

 

I don't know about the 2nd defensive TD that stevegrab is referring to, but Denver can, in fact, thank the D for 10 of the 32 pts they scored. In fact, Minnesota can thank their D for 8 of the 29 pts they scored (safety and two TOs in Broncos territory where they had to resort to FGs, something announcers often rightly consider a victory for the D).

 

So, that sort of says something. That, when the offense is required to score 22 whole points on their own (basically the league average) in order to win a game, that means the D "completely let them down".

 

But, none of that takes away from what Tebow did, and as you pointed out, his 2nd half stats were outstanding. Though, were I a fan, I would temper my enthusiasm just a bit, considering that (according to pro-football-reference.com), Minnesota does rank 30th in points allowed, 29th in passing yardage allowed, 32 in passing TDs allowed, and 24th in yards allowed per attempt. In other words, for the same reason we're quick to point out "it was against Carolina" when a RB goes off, one should be happy with what Tebow did, but keep it in perspective.

 

ETA:

 

I also might be concerned about the first half from the offensive perspective.

1st drive: safety (though they did start on their own 1)

2nd drive: 3 and out

3rd drive: Fumble on their own 36

4th drive: 3 and out

5th drive: 9 and out (punt from their own 34)

6th drive: 3 and out

7th drive: fumble at their own 21

 

Against a team other than Minnesota, who has blown massive leads all year long, that might be something you can't overcome. Of course, it didn't hurt that their D was as strong as they were, keeping them within a 8 despite that. Scoring 7 pts of their own, in fact. Denver could have very likely been down by 20 at the half. Which, of course, considering who they were playing, may still been a manageable distance to make up.

Edited December 5, 2011 by detlef

[Furd]

I don't think it has anything to do with Tebow (although I understand that some claim he has unworldly powers) but somebody made the purple sea part more than a few times in the second half.

 

Tebow tooks advantages of those lapses, but damn. Its as if Thomas had a force field around him that pushed the dbs away if they came within 10 yards and, at one point, caused Cedric Griffin to run away from him.

 

The Vikings defense should be embarassed.

[Bronco Billy]

Could you explain when and how this happened. Was it after the early pick six (without which they need another offensive TD late to get back in the game)? And before the late interception (before the tying score or winning FG, forget which one).

 

Amazing that as soon as the defense gives up more than 15-20 points you claim they completely let the team down. Maybe Tebow should do something more to inspire them to play better, possibly a laying on of the hands or something.

 

Did you watch the game? Did you see rookie Ponder throw for 381 yards and 3 TDs? Did you see Percy Harvin roaming at will through the secondary, and Devin freakin' Aromashodu getting open at will? Did you see Toby freakin' Gerhart ripping off hugh chunks of yards on runs and account for 133 total yds?

 

Yeah, the D made a couple of big plays, no doubt. But over all that performance was abyssmal. The D was getting positively torched by guys named Aromashodu and Gerhart, for Pete's sake. 528 yds and 32 points to a team that was averaging 311 ypg and 19.5 ppg with Adrian Peterson playing the the predominance of those previous games is a damned poor performance. I'm not sure how one would see it otherwise.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[stevegrab]

Why would I argue that Tebow did not look great? That would be silly.

 

Not as silly as Bronco implying the D "completely let them down", but silly none the less.

 

I don't know about the 2nd defensive TD that stevegrab is referring to, but Denver can, in fact, thank the D for 10 of the 32 pts they scored. In fact, Minnesota can thank their D for 8 of the 29 pts they scored (safety and two TOs in Broncos territory where they had to resort to FGs, something announcers often rightly consider a victory for the D).

 

So, that sort of says something. That, when the offense is required to score 22 whole points on their own (basically the league average) in order to win a game, that means the D "completely let them down".

 

But, none of that takes away from what Tebow did, and as you pointed out, his 2nd half stats were outstanding. Though, were I a fan, I would temper my enthusiasm just a bit, considering that (according to pro-football-reference.com), Minnesota does rank 30th in points allowed, 29th in passing yardage allowed, 32 in passing TDs allowed, and 24th in yards allowed per attempt. In other words, for the same reason we're quick to point out "it was against Carolina" when a RB goes off, one should be happy with what Tebow did, but keep it in perspective.

 

ETA:

 

I also might be concerned about the first half from the offensive perspective.

1st drive: safety (though they did start on their own 1)

2nd drive: 3 and out

3rd drive: Fumble on their own 36

4th drive: 3 and out

5th drive: 9 and out (punt from their own 34)

6th drive: 3 and out

7th drive: fumble at their own 21

 

Against a team other than Minnesota, who has blown massive leads all year long, that might be something you can't overcome. Of course, it didn't hurt that their D was as strong as they were, keeping them within a 8 despite that. Scoring 7 pts of their own, in fact. Denver could have very likely been down by 20 at the half. Which, of course, considering who they were playing, may still been a manageable distance to make up.

 

 

Regarding the underlined part of your post...I goofed in my original post and corrected it was an interception late in the game that helped with the win, not another def TD.

 

Great points about the first half offense. If not for that def TD to start, they'd have 0 points, but the "defense completely let them down". I'd say the offense completely let them down for an entire half. But then what do we know, we've not been blessed into the Order Of Tebow.

[Chief Dick]

He has resurrected Demarius Thomas.

 

This made me laugh.

[detlef]

Did you watch the game? Did you see rookie Ponder throw for 381 yards and 3 TDs? Did you see Percy Harvin roaming at will through the secondary, and Devin freakin' Aromashodu getting open at will? Did you see Toby freakin' Gerhart ripping off hugh chunks of yards on runs and account for 133 total yds?

 

Yeah, the D made a couple of big plays, no doubt. But over all that performance was abyssmal. The D was getting positively torched by guys named Aromashodu and Gerhart, for Pete's sake. 528 yds and 32 points to a team that was averaging 311 ypg and 19.5 ppg with Adrian Peterson playing the the predominance of those previous games is a damned poor performance. I'm not sure how one would see it otherwise.

Because the Denver offense held the ball for 10:12 in the first half, turned the ball over twice inside their own territory, was tackled in their own end zone, and still was only down by a TD at the half? If the D was a goalie, that's what you'd call, standing on their heads.

 

Were they as dominant as they have been of late? Certainly not. But, "completely let them down"? Honestly.

 

Just so I have this correct: When the D plays great D for four quarters and Tebow plays great for one, they won because of Tebow's magic and moxie (either that or his great ball-control offense that doesn't actually control dick for the first 30-50 minutes of the game). When the D plays great for the first half and Tebow plays great for the 2nd, it's the D "completely letting them down". Is that how it works?

Edited December 5, 2011 by detlef

[Bronco Billy]

[/b]

Because the Denver offense held the ball for 10:12 in the first half, turned the ball over twice inside their own territory and still was only down by a TD at the half? If the D was a goalie, that's what you'd call, standing on their heads.

 

Were they as dominant as they have been of late? Certainly not. But, "completely let them down"? Honestly.

 

Jesus H Christ. Why is it so difficult to make an honest evaluation? The D came up with a couple of big plays, but otherwise had a really crappy game. There's no way one could watch Harvin zig zag through half the D on his way to the end zone, or how wide open MIN receivers were at times - Aromashodu looked like he was getting lonely out there because his coverage was so far away at times. And Gerhart slamming through for multiple large runs? It happens. It's okay to say so. They didn't have a good day. This time the O rescued them, whereas it's been the other way around in many of the past few games.

 

That said, it's pretty obvious how much of an impact Miller makes on this team.

[detlef]

Jesus H Christ. Why is it so difficult to make an honest evaluation? The D came up with a couple of big plays, but otherwise had a really crappy game. There's no way one could watch Harvin zig zag through half the D on his way to the end zone, or how wide open MIN receivers were at times - Aromashodu looked like he was getting lonely out there because his coverage was so far away at times. And Gerhart slamming through for multiple large runs? It happens. It's okay to say so. They didn't have a good day. This time the O rescued them, whereas it's been the other way around in many of the past few games.

 

That said, it's pretty obvious how much of an impact Miller makes on this team.

That much is true. Listen, I'm not saying the D put forth the sort of effort they have of late. But they got absolutely nothing from the offense in the first half. Well, actually they got less than nothing. Nothing would be a bunch of 3 and outs, which was about as good as they ever got from their offense. No, their offense gave them a safety and a couple of TOs in their own territory for good measure. And yet, the D single-handedly kept them in the game. And then the offense took over and the D got sloppy and was "torched" for 17 pts in the 2nd half.

 

Most teams don't expect their D to play lights out for every quarter of ever game. It's nice to see that Tebow and Co., after having their D completely, totally, and undeniably bail them out in the first half and there's simply no other way of looking at it, returned the favor in the 2nd.

Edited December 5, 2011 by detlef

[stevegrab]

Jesus H Christ. Why is it so difficult to make an honest evaluation? The D came up with a couple of big plays, but otherwise had a really crappy game. There's no way one could watch Harvin zig zag through half the D on his way to the end zone, or how wide open MIN receivers were at times - Aromashodu looked like he was getting lonely out there because his coverage was so far away at times. And Gerhart slamming through for multiple large runs? It happens. It's okay to say so. They didn't have a good day. This time the O rescued them, whereas it's been the other way around in many of the past few games.

 

That said, it's pretty obvious how much of an impact Miller makes on this team.

 

We've all been wondering that about you for a couple months now.

 

Detlef responded to your response to me pretty well already. Sure the D didn't play very well through most of the game, but without their "couple of big plays" Tebow needs to score another TD and move the ball another 50+ yards to get the game winning FG.

 

But yeah, the D sucked, and the exalted one did it all on his own (again).

[Bronco Billy]

We've all been wondering that about you for a couple months now.

 

Why don't you point out where I haven't been honestly critical, either positive or negative?

 

 

Sure the D didn't play very well through most of the game,

 

Wasn't I saying exactly that - including the qualifiers on a couple of big plays?

 

 

But yeah, the D sucked, and the exalted one did it all on his own (again).

 

And despite the points above, you decide to add this kind of crap. Then you wonder why people like me come back on you.

[SNOWBOUND33]

Why don't you point out where I haven't been honestly critical, either positive or negative?

 

 

 

 

Wasn't I saying exactly that - including the qualifiers on a couple of big plays?

 

 

 

 

And despite the points above, you decide to add this kind of crap. Then you wonder why people like me come back on you.

"People like me". That says it all.

[stevegrab]

Why don't you point out where I haven't been honestly critical, either positive or negative?

 

Wasn't I saying exactly that - including the qualifiers on a couple of big plays?

 

And despite the points above, you decide to add this kind of crap. Then you wonder why people like me come back on you.

 

Sorry don't know how to do the multiple quoting, so here are the answers

 

1. Your "the D completely let them down" part for starters.

 

2. You only ackowledged the big plays by the D in later posts. As detlef pointed out, keeping them in the game through the first half when the offense was horrible is hardly "a complete let down".

 

3. As for my parting shot, its based on your reactions to almost any criticism. You treat him as some sort of God. You even have him tebowing as your avatar and a sigline making him sound like the second coming. Either you really feel that way or its just there to aggravate people during the whole lengthy Tebow debate.

 

I'll admit he's a big part of his team winning lately. He's helped turn them around. But it isn't all him, the defense, the rushing of McGahee, the run blocking, etc. And I do not think it is sustainable beyond say the next season or so. And I don't see his passing skills getting that much better so far.

[detlef]

Bronco, define "most of the game". Surely you're not expecting the D to play any better than they did in the first half. They allowed one TD, but this after they were on the field for basically the entire game up to that point. Literally. Prior to that TD drive, Denver had just finished it's longest drive of the game, a drive that started on their 21 and ended on their 34. That is it. So, is it not fair to give the D a pass on that one? Especially since they'd just scored one of their own prior to that? As well as held Minn to a FG after getting the ball on the Denver 35 and then again did so after Minn got the ball on the Denver 20? Not to mention forcing a sack fumble when Minnesota was in the red zone, taking points off the board?

 

Can you honestly say that any team should realistically expect more from their D in the first half than what Denver got? I mean, there is a team on the other side of the ball that is also trying to win, right?

 

So, at most, the D played horribly for half of the game. But, even in that half, when they were "torched" for 17 pts, they picked Ponder off in FG range and basically sealed the victory. So, they bookended nearly a half of bad play with 30 minutes of stout, workman-like tenacity and a clutch INT (that, admittedly, was a total gift from Ponder, but a pick none the less). After all, if Tebow "carried the team" by putting up 30 minutes worth of great numbers against a horrid pass D, it wouldn't exactly be fair to marginalize the amazing, diving, finger-tip, HOF first ballot worthy Pick that Goodman made.

Edited December 5, 2011 by detlef

[Bronco Billy]

Sorry don't know how to do the multiple quoting, so here are the answers

 

1. Your "the D completely let them down" part for starters.

 

Allowing 32 points to a Petersonless Vikes' team is a complete let down and almost cost DEN the game. Like I said earlier, I'm not exactly sure how one disputes this.

 

2. You only ackowledged the big plays by the D in later posts. As detlef pointed out, keeping them in the game through the first half when the offense was horrible is hardly "a complete let down".

 

Read my 7:17 am post - my first one on the subject of yesterday's D performance. Second paragraph. Sentence 1. Hopefully you'll be able to find it now.

 

3. As for my parting shot, its based on your reactions to almost any criticism. You treat him as some sort of God.

 

You either don't read my posts fully (see response to point 2 for example), or you are a complete fool. I'll assume it's the former. Either way, your statement here is completely clueless.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[stevegrab]

Allowing 32 points to a Petersonless Vikes' team is a complete let down and almost cost DEN the game. Like I said earlier, I'm not exactly sure how one disputes this.

 

 

Read my 7:17 am post - my first one on the subject of yesterday's D performance. Second paragraph. Sentence 1. Hopefully you'll be able to find it now.

 

 

 

You either don't read my posts fully (see response to point 2 for example), or you are a complete fool. I'll assume it's the former. Either way, your statement here is completely clueless.

 

Its been disputed repeatedly, detlef went over that pretty well in mulitple posts. But I guess you'll just continue to ignore it. Is there any wonder why people are reacting to your posts the way they are?

 

And my statements are clueless.

 

Really I'm done responding to you for today. I only hope I have the chance to see the remainder of the Tebows games so I can see for myself what is going on rather than believe any of your hogwash.

[Bronco Billy]

Bronco, define "most of the game". Surely you're not expecting the D to play any better than they did in the first half. They allowed one TD, but this after they were on the field for basically the entire game up to that point. Literally. Prior to that TD drive, Denver had just finished it's longest drive of the game, a drive that started on their 21 and ended on their 34. That is it. So, is it not fair to give the D a pass on that one? Especially since they'd just scored one of their own prior to that? As well as held Minn to a FG after getting the ball on the Denver 35 and then again did so after Minn got the ball on the Denver 20? Not to mention forcing a sack fumble when Minnesota was in the red zone, taking points off the board?

 

Can you honestly say that any team should realistically expect more from their D in the first half than what Denver got? I mean, there is a team on the other side of the ball that is also trying to win, right?

 

So, at most, the D played horribly for half of the game. But, even in that half, when they were "torched" for 17 pts, they picked Ponder off in FG range and basically sealed the victory. So, they bookended nearly a half of bad play with 30 minutes of stout, workman-like tenacity and a clutch INT (that, admittedly, was a total gift from Ponder, but a pick none the less). After all, if Tebow "carried the team" by putting up 30 minutes worth of great numbers against a horrid pass D, it wouldn't exactly be fair to marginalize the amazing, diving, finger-tip, HOF first ballot worthy Pick that Goodman made.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. When I see a D give up almost 67% more in total offense, and over 50% more in scoring, than their opponent's season averages to a team that is missing the guy who is easily their best player, I consider that a poor performance. When I see a rookie QB throw for almsot 400 yds and 3 TDs, that's poor play. When I see guys as limited as Aromashodu and Gerhart have great days, I consider that the result of poor D play. I guess you don't.

 

ETA - in that 1st half that you are citing as evidence of how well the D really played, the DEN D gave up 8 plays of 7+ yds in the first quarter and had a personal foul penalty to boot, and gave up 9 plays of 7+ yards in the 2nd quarter. That's hardly good D. The MIN O had exactly one 3-and-out the entire 1st half.

 

I have and will concede that the D came up big when it needed to and made a couple of hugh plays, but 2 plays in the course of 80+ plays run by the Vikes doesn't give them a pass on the rest of the game. They had a bad game. It doesn't mean they are a bad D. Only that they were way off the game they've been producing lately.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[bpwallace49]

So how did tebow's magical inspirational powers fail the defense yesterday?

 

Defense plays well= divine inspiration from tebow . . what a leader!

 

Defense plays badly= What an amazing performance by Tebow to overcome such a handicap! What a gritty competitor!

 

Good times indeed.

 

Tebow's passing has improved, no doubt. From highlights(but I will be able to watch the whole Denver/Bears game next week to see) it looks like most pass plays are called to the outside. Pretty smart playcalling to completely take out the possibility of INTs by using the sideline as a additional defender. Good job by Fox in those playcalls, and great job by Tebow in being able to execute. He is finally starting to look like a QB that is starting to learn how to pass the ball in the NFL.

 

I am still shocked at tebows complete incompetence at passing when he was given the chance this year to start. He is a second year quarterback, that looked like he has never passed before in his life when he started. Yates for Houston looked more comfortable in the pocket in his first start as a rookie than Tebow in his second year yesterday. For a "hard worker" and first round draft pick, why wasnt he working on this all last year? But hey, as long as the TEAM (did you see what I did there?) keeps winning and Tebow sells spamshirts then who cares right? However they do it, the TEAM is still winning.

[detlef]

We're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. When I see a D give up almost 67% more in total offense, and over 50% more in scoring, than their opponent's season averages to a team that is missing the guy who is easily their best player, I consider that a poor performance. When I see a rookie QB throw for almsot 400 yds and 3 TDs, that's poor play. When I see guys as limited as Aromashodu and Gerhart have great days, I consider that the result of poor D play. I guess you don't.

 

I have and will concede that the D came up big when it needed to and made a couple of hugh plays, but 2 plays in the course of 80+ plays run by the Vikes doesn't give them a pass on the rest of the game. They had a bad game. It doesn't mean they are a bad D. Only that they were way off the game they've been producing lately.

I count 7 before they finally gave in after the offense did absolutely nothing for the first 20+ minutes of the game...

 

2-6-DEN49(13:36) L.Booker up the middle to MIN 48 for -3 yards (M.Haggan).

3-9-MIN48(12:58) (Shotgun) C.Ponder pass incomplete short left to V.Shiancoe [C.Harris].

Forced punt on first Minn drive

3-8-DEN8(8:16) (Shotgun) C.Ponder sacked at DEN 15 for -7 yards (B.Dawkins). FUMBLES (B.Dawkins), RECOVERED by DEN-J.Hunter at DEN 32. J.Hunter to 50 for 18 yards (P.Loadholt).

Takes points off the board on Minn's 2nd drive

2-8-MIN9(5:50) C.Ponder pass short right intended for D.Aromashodu INTERCEPTED by M.Haggan at MIN 16. M.Haggan for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Scores points themselves on Minn's 3rd drive

2-7-MIN28(5:04) (Shotgun) P.Harvin left end to MIN 27 for -1 yards (M.Haggan).

3-8-MIN27(4:29) (Shotgun) C.Ponder sacked at MIN 23 for -4 yards (E.Dumervil).

Forces 3 and out on Minn's 4th drive

3-10-DEN21(2:04) (Shotgun) C.Ponder pass short right to T.Gerhart to DEN 22 for -1 yards (W.Woodyard; A.Goodman).

Forces FG after Minnesota gets a turnover on the Denver 36 to start their 5th drive

 

Seriously, look at Denver's 1st half. Offensively, you'd have to play make believe to come up with something worse. They made it "across" midfield exactly once. When they started on the 50. On that drive, they made it all the way to the 42. On drives they actually started in their own territory? They made it past their own 30 twice, and one of those times they fumbled it on the 36. The other time? They made it all the way to their 34. Seriously, it was a pick-six or two short of being even as bad as you could actually imagine in make-believe land. And to discount how well a D has to play, in light of that, to even keep them in the game, including scoring the only points of the half for that team, is unreal.

 

But, maybe you're right. Maybe it wasn't just the D who kept them in the game the first half. There is someone who deserves some credit and isn't getting it. Colquitt, who had punts of 58, 58, and 59 yards. Of course, they weren't all that good. One punt only went 35. Mind you, he pinned Minn at the 7 on that one.

[WaterMan]

It's pretty easy to understand that when the offense turns the ball over so many times, that the defense is going to allow some scoring.

 

1) Because this sets the other offense up with good field position.

 

2) The defense isn't rested.

[bpwallace49]

"He's a great quarterback, but I expect more out of us on defense," Giants defensive end Dave Tollefson said. "You know, it's not like Jesus in cleats. He's Aaron Rodgers. He's a great quarterback, but we have to do a better job of finishing on defense."

 

You are correct Dave . .. . that would be Tebow.