Joe Paterno is at death's door

[Big John]

We have defended since the 70's.

Came out in 1980

[detlef]

OK, so I just spent the last 30 minutes driving around and listening to sports radio. Coach K made a comment that I think many are making and I think is entirely indefensible.

 

That we should not allow one horrible mistake to negate all the good he did.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. Listen, if you want to say he was railroaded and unfairly accused and that he truly did do what he could to stop Sandusky and bring him to justice, that's fine. I don't believe how that can be the case, and hopefully enough facts will come out to show that one way or the other. But it's a defensible stance.

 

However, the second you play the "we can't let one think negate all this good, you're saying that you think he screwed up here. That he was culpable, to some degree, in the cover-up. And this is why "one bad mistake" cancels out the rest. Besides the massive gravity of the mistake, which can't be overstated, there's the fact that all these guys. Jo Pa, Coach K, you name it, are not martyrs or guys who just gave of themselves like a saint. They were adored, and very well compensated their entire career. It wasn't like they were selflessly giving and giving not worrying about what they get in return. Because, they were getting paid, and getting paid well. They walked on water and all of that. And more power to them. But, they got compensated and well, for every young man they molded or every way they helped their University. Also, at some point, it is about them. It was certainly about Joe when he refused to step down. He was racing Bowden for the most wins. That's cool. Get it if you can. But there's another chink in the "selfless martyr" facade.

 

Let's call it what it is, they're the top dog in a revenue making machine that also happens to build both good football players and, apparently, good men. And, at some point, they might get drunk with power and think that what they're doing is important enough to rink a little collateral damage.

 

At that point, if you truly think "the good outweighs the bad", you need to go find a mirror and say the following: "It is more important for me to think the things I hold dear are pure than it is that they're actually pure."

[Hugh 0ne]

That we should not allow one horrible mistake to negate all the good he did.

 

For the many of you that won't read Detlef's long winded post, I'll break it down for you.

 

That's a giant crock of sh*t.

 

Carry on.

 

[Ursa Majoris]

For the many of you that won't read Detlef's long winded post, I'll break it down for you.

 

That's a giant crock of sh*t.

 

Carry on.

 

And I should point out that Detlef himself isn't saying that, but quoting others, mostly from the college and athletics world.

[tonorator]

And I should point out that Detlef himself isn't saying that, but quoting others, mostly from the college and athletics world.

 

which reinforces the point that joepa is/was the poster child for what is WRONG with college athletics today ...

[Hugh 0ne]

And I should point out that Detlef himself isn't saying that, but quoting others, mostly from the college and athletics world.

 

Yeah, I was referring to what Detlef was saying about the quoted statement.

[Azazello1313]

That we should not allow one horrible mistake to negate all the good he did.

 

I would have to say the "one horrible mistake" (which really looks to be more of a pattern of behavior over many years) reveals more about who he was than all the carefully constructed "great man" mythology that surrounds him in the minds of some. from where I stand, reading facts as the story comes out, he was more of a phony and a coward than anything else. he was pretty good at winning football games, and to that end he helped some people better themselves. great. but I'm sorry, the other stuff strikes me as being far more impactful.

[Hugh 0ne]

I would have to say the "one horrible mistake" (which really looks to be more of a pattern of behavior over many years) reveals more about who he was than all the carefully constructed "great man" mythology that surrounds him in the minds of some. from where I stand, reading facts as the story comes out, he was more of a phony and a coward than anything else. he was pretty good at winning football games, and to that end he helped some people better themselves. great. but I'm sorry, the other stuff strikes me as being far more impactful.

 

Yep. Exactly.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Hugh 0ne

[Double Agent]

Using facebook for example, which I know is not a very strong barometer , I saw a lot of "Why all the sympathy for Joe Paterno, he should rot in hell" updates yesterday with people swarming to agree.

 

The problem I have with some of the "positive" JoePa posts is they all seem to feel sorry for JoePa's tarnished legacy. Sandusky didn't do anything to tarnish JoePa's legacy. If anything, Paterno had the chance to become an even bigger hero. But he chose to be either selfish or a coward...maybe both. And that's what people will remember.

[Ursa Majoris]

I would have to say the "one horrible mistake" (which really looks to be more of a pattern of behavior over many years) reveals more about who he was than all the carefully constructed "great man" mythology that surrounds him in the minds of some. from where I stand, reading facts as the story comes out, he was more of a phony and a coward than anything else. he was pretty good at winning football games, and to that end he helped some people better themselves. great. but I'm sorry, the other stuff strikes me as being far more impactful.

Again, I think he was institutionalized in the sense that the University became his entire life. He wasn't the first to believe "his" institution transcended everything else and he won't be the last. People who spend their entire lives in academia and the military seem susceptible to this (though I ought to point out it's by no means all-encompassing).

[SNOWBOUND33]

I've stayed away from these threads for a reason. Nauseating. I hope this is the last post.

You're sick? Think about the victims and families! Don't read anymore if you can't take it. Or....go bury your head in the sand like most of the alum. Franco Harris etc.....

And now Ditka. I used to love him, then enjoyed his idiocy, but now I feel the concussions have taken full effect.

[Joessfl]

Came out in 1980

 

 

 

Maybe I was thinking Bezerker. Who knows. I was 12 then and those were some crazy times with Josh Gordon, women, rock and roll.

[Menudo]

In all honesty, hearing from those outside the situation has helped me put this in perspective. In defending him, I've actually gone away from my original thoughts on the situation. I am far from an apologist.

 

I do believe that Joe Paterno could have and should have done more. In doing so, he could have saved other kids from being attacked by that monster, Jerry Sandusky. That is a serious error in judgement that is hard to forgive.

 

I do not believe that his mistake takes away all of the good things he did with his life. Some have said that because he handled this situation in an awful way, that he was always a scumbag and the reports of the good things he did are crap. That isn't true. However, all of the good things are completely tarnished by his error in judgement because of what resulted from his inaction.

 

I think some have gone too far in their critique of Paterno. I've heard people say what he did was just as bad as what Sandusky did. He was also compared to O.J. Simpson twice on these threads at the Huddle. I don't think that he is a scumbag that should burn in hell. I'm not happy that he died. I think those that take it that far are losing perspective just as much as those who are his apologists.

 

It is hard for me to come to this conclusion, but, his inaction DID allow Sandusky to continue to harm other children. I don't think he would have sat on it if he knew others were being abused, but, that doesn't change the fact that his inaction did allow it to happen. Abuse of children is as heinous of a crime as there is, and my stomach cringes when I think of what happened to these kids.

 

As for your question about the 1988/89 firing, Az, you are correct. If he did fire him, then he lied during his testimony. More likely though, the story of what really happened according to the Paterno camp is exaggerated.

 

I still believe that none of us know exactly what happened, but, one thing has become clear. Joe Paterno could have done more and he didn't. Being the man I know him to be, he failed those kids in a big way when he had an opportunity to save them.

 

I still thank the man for the positive things he did, and I hope he rests in peace, but, the legend is definitely tarnished.

[Hugh 0ne]

I know you're in a tough spot Menudo, clearly in the minority around here, and dealing with a situation close to your heart. I appreciate you coming back here and offering your insight and opinion.

[whomper]

The problem I have with some of the "positive" JoePa posts is they all seem to feel sorry for JoePa's tarnished legacy. Sandusky didn't do anything to tarnish JoePa's legacy. If anything, Paterno had the chance to become an even bigger hero. But he chose to be either selfish or a coward...maybe both. And that's what people will remember.

 

 

Understood but some people simply had a RIP Joe Pa up and got slaughtered

[Big John]

Maybe I was thinking Bezerker. Who knows. I was 12 then and those were some crazy times with Josh Gordon, women, rock and roll.

Berzerk also came out in 1980

[Joessfl]

In all honesty, hearing from those outside the situation has helped me put this in perspective. In defending him, I've actually gone away from my original thoughts on the situation. I am far from an apologist.

 

I do believe that Joe Paterno could have and should have done more. In doing so, he could have saved other kids from being attacked by that monster, Jerry Sandusky. That is a serious error in judgement that is hard to forgive.

 

I do not believe that his mistake takes away all of the good things he did with his life. Some have said that because he handled this situation in an awful way, that he was always a scumbag and the reports of the good things he did are crap. That isn't true. However, all of the good things are completely tarnished by his error in judgement because of what resulted from his inaction.

 

I think some have gone too far in their critique of Paterno. I've heard people say what he did was just as bad as what Sandusky did. He was also compared to O.J. Simpson twice on these threads at the Huddle. I don't think that he is a scumbag that should burn in hell. I'm not happy that he died. I think those that take it that far are losing perspective just as much as those who are his apologists.

 

It is hard for me to come to this conclusion, but, his inaction DID allow Sandusky to continue to harm other children. I don't think he would have sat on it if he knew others were being abused, but, that doesn't change the fact that his inaction did allow it to happen. Abuse of children is as heinous of a crime as there is, and my stomach cringes when I think of what happened to these kids.

 

As for your question about the 1988/89 firing, Az, you are correct. If he did fire him, then he lied during his testimony. More likely though, the story of what really happened according to the Paterno camp is exaggerated.

 

I still believe that none of us know exactly what happened, but, one thing has become clear. Joe Paterno could have done more and he didn't. Being the man I know him to be, he failed those kids in a big way when he had an opportunity to save them.

 

I still thank the man for the positive things he did, and I hope he rests in peace, but, the legend is definitely tarnished.

 

And in reading through this thread, and the other yesterday, I became bitter over "JoePa" the man, and could not understand how this all could happen, and he did not stop it. With all that was said by the one half he was a "father-figure" and bigger than the university. The other half which I was on, tended to think he didnt do enough. Me personally, I dont think I would have stopped untilo I got clear answers to any questions I had about that boy. I was filled with rage reading the huddle threads.

 

I have gotten more info about both sides. I have since taken a more peaceful attitude, that my hate is not for JoePa, but I think for everyone in the whole event. It wsnt just JoePa. There were others that should also be searching their consious, and speak up if there was coverup/conspiracy. State cops, Campus cops, McQuery, newspapers, the mother that was told to stay away from the media.

 

The earthly justice JoePa would have been put through is now done for him. I dont believe in the afterlife, but I am sure it has weighed on him for the past couple months how bad his action or inaction hurt others. And if there is a maker, he can continue to talk out his consious with him (if the maker is a her, then no one would get a word in).

 

In this way, the thread has helped. I dont forgive him, nor do I condemn. Maybe I can just learn to educate myself more, give a little more to help others esp when it is clear they truly need help. Honestly, isnt that what we are all here for?

 

(You can all stop singing kumbya with me now. Thank you)

[i_am_the_swammi]

Much of the criticism of Paterno is well-deserved. No question. I have levied a bunch of it on him myself.

 

I just wonder sometimes why there is isn't at least some criticism directed at the dozens and dozens of people who, like Paterno, also knew (at least had suspicions, or in some cases, direct knowledge) of what Sandusky was up to, and not one of them leaked a story or reported it, either.

 

I can't make sense of much of what transpired at this University on a variety of levels...but I do find it troubling that we are directing all this finger-pointing directly at Paterno, largely because he is the most visible. There is no question that dozens, possibly hundreds, had knowledge that something was amiss...no one said a word, or leaked a thing. Paterno is guilty of not doing enough, but he far from alone here.

[Joessfl]

Berzerk also came out in 1980

 

Grrrr....you and your facts. Damn you Big John. Damn you and your stacks of encyclopedias and stacks of fact filled periodicals. If I only had the sources of your knowledge I should be fact-based too. That is your source right?

[caddyman]

Much of the criticism of Paterno is well-deserved. No question. I have levied a bunch of it on him myself.

 

I just wonder sometimes why there is isn't at least some criticism directed at the dozens and dozens of people who, like Paterno, also knew (at least had suspicions, or in some cases, direct knowledge) of what Sandusky was up to, and not one of them leaked a story or reported it, either.

 

I can't make sense of much of what transpired at this University on a variety of levels...but I do find it troubling that we are directing all this finger-pointing directly at Paterno, largely because he is the most visible. There is no question that dozens, possibly hundreds, had knowledge that something was amiss...no one said a word, or leaked a thing. Paterno is guilty of not doing enough, but he far from alone here.

Actually it is not because of his visibility, it is because of the person that he was. He always was in control of everything. In control of what conference they played in, who they played out of confererence...etc. Also and one of the big ones for me, were the players that would get in trouble and Koe would tell the campus police that he would take care of it...see the quote from Joe below...

 

"I can go back to a couple guys in the '70s who drove me nuts," he said. "The cops would call me, and I used to put them in bed in my house and run their rear ends off the next day. Nobody knew about it. That's the way we handled it."

 

Or this one...

from an article about the lady that resigned...

 

The confrontations came to a head in 2007, according to one former school official, when six football players were charged by police for forcing their way into a campus apartment that April and beating up several students, one of them severely. That September, following a tense meeting with Mr. Paterno over the case, she resigned her post, saying at the time she left because of "philosophical differences."

 

 

Paterno’s eventual "punishment" for those players was that they had to help clean the stadium and participate in charity events. But more on that in a second.

 

So he thought his way was the way to go. There are plenty of examples of tthe above type of discipline. So, did Joe think that it was better to handle the Sandusky issue this way? He was always in charge. His way or the highway. It is not because he was the face of the program. His scrutiny is because most people know, that if he wanted to do something he could have.

Edited January 23, 2012 by caddyman

[SNOWBOUND33]

Much of the criticism of Paterno is well-deserved. No question. I have levied a bunch of it on him myself.

 

I just wonder sometimes why there is isn't at least some criticism directed at the dozens and dozens of people who, like Paterno, also knew (at least had suspicions, or in some cases, direct knowledge) of what Sandusky was up to, and not one of them leaked a story or reported it, either.

 

I can't make sense of much of what transpired at this University on a variety of levels...but I do find it troubling that we are directing all this finger-pointing directly at Paterno, largely because he is the most visible. There is no question that dozens, possibly hundreds, had knowledge that something was amiss...no one said a word, or leaked a thing. Paterno is guilty of not doing enough, but he far from alone here.

Very true. From Sandusky to apologists, the guilt trail is very, very long.

[godtomsatan]

I just wonder sometimes why there is isn't at least some criticism directed at the dozens and dozens of people who, like Paterno, also knew (at least had suspicions, or in some cases, direct knowledge) of what Sandusky was up to, and not one of them leaked a story or reported it, either.

 

Because only one of those people had the absolute power to put an end to Sandusky's involvement with the university and the football program, and that person opted to brush it aside.

[Joessfl]

Because only one of those people had the absolute power to put an end to Sandusky's involvement with the university and the football program, and that person opted to brush it aside.

 

 

I think JoePa would have had the easiest time in getting the crime exposed to the public and make it right, but there were others that could have tried as well, albeit, more difficult to bring this out. It could have been done.

[caddyman]

I think JoePa would have had the easiest time in getting the crime exposed to the public and make it right, but there were others that could have tried as well, albeit, more difficult to bring this out. It could have been done.

The difference between Joepa and the others is that no one is worshipping the others talking about all the great things they did.

[detlef]

The difference between Joepa and the others is that no one is worshipping the others talking about all the great things they did.

This, I think everyone involved in this should be tried and punished if found guilty of a cover-up. We're not talking about them because nobody is honoring them.

 

Trust me, I'm not suggesting for a second that anyone involved in this should escape scrutiny or punishment if guilty.