Real Officials and NFL close to agreement

[delusions of grandeur]

It IS our fault in the sense that we continue to demand their product despite the slights they impart upon us. Until and unless the NFL saw actual harm due to customers leaving, they're going to continue to do as they always have done.

 

You talk about "our" like we're all operating on the same wavelength.

 

If the NFL decides to lockout, they lock out. However, you or I wouldn't even make a dent trying to boycott without much mroe outrage (which could happen, and is probably why they're finally actually trying to make progress, rather than saying, screw 'em, they'll still watch).. People who have proposed boycotts can't even decide which game to boycott, because different people have interest in different games.

 

And anyways, no it's not our "fault". We just want to watch our teams and players play football. They're the ones who are supposed to be catering to the customer's desires to put out the best product possible, not just exploiting our desire to watch.

 

Good business says "the customer is always right", not "hey, we got you by the balls, so you'll watch whatever crappy product we decide to give you until you can't stand it anymore".

[Chief Dick]

It IS our fault in the sense that we continue to demand their product despite the slights they impart upon us. Until and unless the NFL saw actual harm due to customers leaving, they're going to continue to do as they always have done.

 

 

Well, stadium attendance has been steadily declining over the last few years.

[Cunning Runt]

 

 

Well, stadium attendance has been steadily declining over the last few years.

 

 

All the while television contracts have ballooned.

[stevegrab]

Was just reading this on the NFL web site, pretty interesting.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066367/article/nfl-not-ruling-out-regular-refs-return-by-thursday-night?module=HP11_headline_stack

 

highlights

• they are close to reaching a deal
  
• they are not ruling out regular refs for tomorrows CLE-BAL game
  
• they don't want a competitve disadvantage by having some teams play more games with replacement refs, so doing it now before the byes start (every team had 3 games with replacement refs) and before the Thursday game is key
  
• Ed Hochuli has been running a training session for the locked out refs (another whole story on that here)
  
• owners are not directly involved in the negotiation, not just Goodell and other league officials
  
• "The owners are dug in, reluctant to make any further compromise, according to a league source."
  

 

The last line is alarming if you expect a deal soon. Also sounds like the NFLRA budged from their position, while the NFL hardly moved (other than the previously mentioned "developmental officials" part.

[detlef]

It IS our fault in the sense that we continue to demand their product despite the slights they impart upon us. Until and unless the NFL saw actual harm due to customers leaving, they're going to continue to do as they always have done.

 

That seems like an odd basis to actively root for the owners in these labor conflicts. And, if you're not actively rooting for them, you could have fooled everyone.

 

Do you actively root for increasingly annoying automated "help centers" that require you to spend a bunch of time giving info to computers only to eventually be asked for the same damned info when a human finally speaks to you? That's just another example of a business figuring they can stretch your patience because they figure the demand is inelastic.

 

It's one thing to be of the opinion that everyone will keep lining up for the games so they have us all by the balls (though, if gate sales are already tailing off, I would think that they'd be wise to show some concern about how inelastic the demand is). But I'm puzzled by the degree to which you relish being delivered an inferior product.

[Cunning Runt]

That seems like an odd basis to actively root for the owners in these labor conflicts. And, if you're not actively rooting for them, you could have fooled everyone.

 

Do you actively root for increasingly annoying automated "help centers" that require you to spend a bunch of time giving info to computers only to eventually be asked for the same damned info when a human finally speaks to you? That's just another example of a business figuring they can stretch your patience because they figure the demand is inelastic.

 

It's one thing to be of the opinion that everyone will keep lining up for the games so they have us all by the balls (though, if gate sales are already tailing off, I would think that they'd be wise to show some concern about how inelastic the demand is). But I'm puzzled by the degree to which you relish being delivered an inferior product.

 

 

I don't feel the need to defend my opinion, but I really don't care for having words I never even considered being put into my mouth because people don't like my opinion - (ie...I relish being delivered an inferior product). No way can you take anything I said to arrive at that.

[stevegrab]

Wasn't this thread about them having an agreement or not? Or is it just another place for a long term pissing match between huddlers that never agree on things?

 

Seriously the complete lack of keeping on a thread on track and 5 year old "no I'm right" BS that goes on here is unreal.

[Cunning Runt]

Wasn't this thread about them having an agreement or not? Or is it just another place for a long term pissing match between huddlers that never agree on things?

 

Seriously the complete lack of keeping on a thread on track and 5 year old "no I'm right" BS that goes on here is unreal.

 

 

I agree. Sorry.

[Chief Dick]

Wasn't this thread about them having an agreement or not? Or is it just another place for a long term pissing match between huddlers that never agree on things?

 

Seriously the complete lack of keeping on a thread on track and 5 year old "no I'm right" BS that goes on here is unreal.

 

I agree. Sorry.

 

 

I disagree.

[detlef]

I don't feel the need to defend my opinion, but I really don't care for having words I never even considered being put into my mouth because people don't like my opinion - (ie...I relish being delivered an inferior product). No way can you take anything I said to arrive at that.

 

Are you are you not very much rooting for the owners in this case, saying the refs are "overpaid"?

 

When it is pointed out that, perhaps they're not because the replacements are showing how much worse they are, do you not go to the "doesn't matter, we're still buying the product", line.

 

So, sorry to break it to you, but that very much does spell that you are actively rooting for a group who is choosing to save some money over delivering you a quality product because they know you'll be back for more regardless.

 

When it came to the players, one could make the very valid argument that the players had managed to negotiate compensation so high that it was not sustainable for the league. In other words, you could argue that it simply had to be done, even if it sucked in the short term. But that argument simply doesn't fly because we're talking about peanuts here. A comparatively small amount of money to spend on a segment of labor that we now have a compelling amount of evidence to support is vital to the quality of the product.

 

Oh, and Steve, chill out. Every effing topic here gets derailed, no need to start making a fuss about it now.

[Cunning Runt]

 

So, sorry to break it to you, but that very much does spell that you are actively rooting for a group who is choosing to save some money over delivering you a quality product because they know you'll be back for more regardless.

 

 

 

Two things: I am not "rooting for the owners". I am I their corner and agree with their position but to imply from that I'm "rooting" is a stretch to say the least. I don't actively bother myself over it. Just express my opinion on a message board.

 

But moreso, the "rooting" exception aside, the part of your post I left in differs a good deal than what you said I was doing in the previous post, which was relishing being delivered an inferior product.

[delusions of grandeur]

Wasn't this thread about them having an agreement or not? Or is it just another place for a long term pissing match between huddlers that never agree on things?

 

Seriously the complete lack of keeping on a thread on track and 5 year old "no I'm right" BS that goes on here is unreal.

 

What, I thought it was relevant to the discussion, and a point that Steve Young argued several weeks ago, that the owners won't budge because the demand is inelastic, something you backed up a few posts ago: "The owners are dug in, reluctant to make any further compromise, according to a league source."

 

I know we're not going CR's mind, but I think it's relevant to the discussion that the owners won't budge, even as the "worth" of the officials is becoming increasingly evident.

 

(And BTW, I can't believe I'm actually arguing that the regular refs were that much better, but the replacements really are that obviously bad).

[stevegrab]

DOG, it is relevant to a point. But the back and forth, with the majority of pages 2 & 3 being CR, you, and detlef just arguing who has what view point, etc.

 

Doesn't seem very helpful to the conversation. It seems this happens a lot on the huddle, a good thread with valid discussion deteriorates into these personal battles. I personally would like to keep following this, but it this keeps up its become worthless.

[detlef]

Two things: I am not "rooting for the owners". I am I their corner and agree with their position but to imply from that I'm "rooting" is a stretch to say the least. I don't actively bother myself over it. Just express my opinion on a message board.

 

But moreso, the "rooting" exception aside, the part of your post I left in differs a good deal than what you said I was doing in the previous post, which was relishing being delivered an inferior product.

 

So, you're in their corner but aren't rooting for them. Should I ever find myself in a boxing match, I do hope that anyone I choose to put in my corner does not share your opinion of what that means.

 

Regardless, perhaps you haven't been as vehement (I say perhaps because I'm not going to bother going back and looking, not because I'm conceding the fact that you haven't) in your support for the owners in this battle as you were in the players one, because in that one you words left absolutely no doubt. But it does seem like you barely skipped a beat moving on to this one, so it's hardly a stretch...

[delusions of grandeur]

DOG, it is relevant to a point. But the back and forth, with the majority of pages 2 & 3 being CR, you, and detlef just arguing who has what view point, etc.

 

Doesn't seem very helpful to the conversation. It seems this happens a lot on the huddle, a good thread with valid discussion deteriorates into these personal battles. I personally would like to keep following this, but it this keeps up its become worthless.

 

Welcome to the internet. I don't often see you just letting it go when something/one rubs you the wrong way either.

 

But anyways, I'll let you have the last word so you can contribute to your own hypocrisy

 

Edited September 26, 2012 by delusions of grandeur

[Cunning Runt]

So, you're in their corner but aren't rooting for them. Should I ever find myself in a boxing match, I do hope that anyone I choose to put in my corner does not share your opinion of what that means.

 

Regardless, perhaps you haven't been as vehement (I say perhaps because I'm not going to bother going back and looking, not because I'm conceding the fact that you haven't) in your support for the owners in this battle as you were in the players one, because in that one you words left absolutely no doubt. But it does seem like you barely skipped a beat moving on to this one, so it's hardly a stretch...

 

 

I haven't been. Honest. (As vehement that is).

 

But ya, I have no love for unions. That much is a definite.

[rellen13]

You talk about "our" like we're all operating on the same wavelength.

 

If the NFL decides to lockout, they lock out. However, you or I wouldn't even make a dent trying to boycott without much mroe outrage (which could happen, and is probably why they're finally actually trying to make progress, rather than saying, screw 'em, they'll still watch).. People who have proposed boycotts can't even decide which game to boycott, because different people have interest in different games.

 

And anyways, no it's not our "fault". We just want to watch our teams and players play football. They're the ones who are supposed to be catering to the customer's desires to put out the best product possible, not just exploiting our desire to watch.

 

Good business says "the customer is always right", not "hey, we got you by the balls, so you'll watch whatever crappy product we decide to give you until you can't stand it anymore".

 

Isn't it "The customer is always right" logic that brought us: Reality TV, Mob wives of the Jersey Shore Kardashians, 17 shows about bad pop music, Who wants to be a Millionaire five nights a week, and a host of other dreck on broadcast TV, basically leaving it up to the cable channels you must pay for to air anything even remotely dramatic/different/dangerous/funny or just worthwhile.

 

I don't believe it pays in the long run to pander to today's popular opinion.

 

This is where I have a problem with both the Owners and the Refs. Neither side has my interests at heart. I already find it a travesty what they have done to the pure game of football, changing so many rules all in the name of bringing in more casual fans and their money. This is just a story about two selfish groups of people who apparently don't care about football as much as we do.

[delusions of grandeur]

Isn't it "The customer is always right" logic that brought us: Reality TV, Mob wives of the Jersey Shore Kardashians, 17 shows about bad pop music, Who wants to be a Millionaire five nights a week, and a host of other dreck on broadcast TV, basically leaving it up to the cable channels you must pay for to air anything even remotely dramatic/different/dangerous/funny or just worthwhile.

 

I don't believe it pays in the long run to pander to today's popular opinion.

 

This is where I have a problem with both the Owners and the Refs. Neither side has my interests at heart. I already find it a travesty what they have done to the pure game of football, changing so many rules all in the name of bringing in more casual fans and their money. This is just a story about two selfish groups of people who apparently don't care about football as much as we do.

I don't see the issue with companies catering to demand. That will always exist and is the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. Really what you're referring to is more of a cultural commentary that some people prefer BS drama over well-written programming. Just look at all of the mindless stuff that's on youtube that get tons of hits.... Also, there is competition there, because I only watch well-written shows that cater to my demand.

 

However, what I'm talking about here is them refusing to make any concessions to cater to the fan's demand for better officiating, because they see the demand for professional football (which they have a monopoly on) as inelastic.

 

As for the new rules, I do agree that viewership does play a factor in the transition to a passing league, but they also didn't have much choice but to emphasize player safety with concussion lawsuits and ex-players offing themselves, along with players now being bigger, faster, stronger than they've ever been, leading to more violent collisions.

 

Same reason you don't see segments like "jacked up" anymore. Obviously people love to see big hits, but they simply can't glorify and condone them anymore.

[detlef]

Isn't it "The customer is always right" logic that brought us: Reality TV, Mob wives of the Jersey Shore Kardashians, 17 shows about bad pop music, Who wants to be a Millionaire five nights a week, and a host of other dreck on broadcast TV, basically leaving it up to the cable channels you must pay for to air anything even remotely dramatic/different/dangerous/funny or just worthwhile.

 

I don't believe it pays in the long run to pander to today's popular opinion.

 

This is where I have a problem with both the Owners and the Refs. Neither side has my interests at heart. I already find it a travesty what they have done to the pure game of football, changing so many rules all in the name of bringing in more casual fans and their money. This is just a story about two selfish groups of people who apparently don't care about football as much as we do.

 

OK, so say you back off from the whole "customer is always right" bit just a tad. Because, let's face it, they're not always right. Even if the adage still holds because, right or wrong, you've got to make them happy. But, let's say you're in the enviable position where you don't have to put up with the customer's BS when, in fact, they're actually wrong.

 

But that's not even the case here. Because, in this case, THE FREAKING CUSTOMER IS RIGHT. Straight up. The customer is watching a product that the providers charge dearly for that is a flat-out joke. Not because of some uninformed opinion that a merchant needs to swallow his pride and cave to. But because the product is a freaking farce.

 

So, before you lump "the customer" in this case with the dipcrack masses who are apparently clamoring for stupid reality TV. Understand that, in this case, "the customer" is nearly everyone who has gotten used to watching some of the finest athletes play a game governed by a group that has their chight together and delivers a quality product.

[Grits and Shins]

Well, stadium attendance has been steadily declining over the last few years.

 

 

That is a function of ticket price plus the price of other amenities.

 

Couple of months ago I heard that the NFL was aware that attendance was declining in large part due to the cost. To address this issue they weren't considering reducing the cost ... instead they were looking for ways to enhance the experience so that the fan gets more for their money. One enhancement that was under consideration was improving wireless and having apps so that fans in the stands could enjoy a full online experience. Another indication of how far up their asses they have their heads.

 

In regards to Jerry World ... the other day I heard announcers talking about how Jerry had envisioned that his stadium would be one of the hardest places to play because the loud fans that would fill his stadium but it just hasn't turned out that way - the stadium is one of the quietest in the league. I guess he didn't realize that with his ticket prices he would be catering to the corporate (quiet) client and not the rabid fan. I guess he also didn't realize that as long as the Cowboys continue to flounder in mediocrity because of a horrible head office that fans have a hard time getting behind them.

 

I heard a trip to the game for a family of 4 averages right around $600. I REFUSE to spend this kind of money to go to a game. Additionally I refuse to buy NFL merchandise because of the high cost. I dropped the NFL Ticket because of the cost. If there were more fans like me maybe the owners would get the message.

[Big John]

Well, they had an alternate referee doing the det/phi game replacing Scott Greene (19)

[Zooty]

Well, they had an alternate referee doing the det/phi game replacing Scott Greene (19)

 

 

Alternate in that its his first game on the field since 2007 due to health reasons. He had been in the box and assisting with other things as well