Sunday Couch Potatoe Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, darin3 said: You're koo-koo. + 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Couch Potatoe Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 6 hours ago, rajncajn said: I've heard this argument time and time again. It's always something, gets to play in a dome, plays in a QB friendly era, plays in a QB friendly system, has Payton for a coach, blah, blah, blah. Why is it that Brees is the only QB that gets the asterisks thrown in when talking about his accomplishments? Did Manning not play in a dome for most of his career and have Marvin Harrison and Edge to throw to? Has Brady not had probably the greatest coach of all time and mostly great defenses, Randy Moss, Wes Welker? Aaron Rodgers has played in the same era, has he not? Randall Cobb, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, Jordy Nelson? If you're going to throw out the positives, how about factor in the negatives as well? First off the fact that he's done it despite not being the prototypical build for a QB? Brees is 6' tall with platform shoes on. He often can't even see the player he is throwing to. Yet he's one of the most accurate QBs in league history. Brees also never had the huge arm strength of a Brady or Favre. And speaking of arm strength, how do you come back from a fully dislocated throwing shoulder, a 360-degree tear of his labrum and a 50-percent tear of his rotator cuff? Hard work, dedication, determination. That's why Brees has broken just about every single record there is for a QB, not because of anything else. Are his stats a little higher playing in a dome? Yeah, I'll give you that, but to shrug off his accomplishments because he didn't play where these other guys did and ignore what advantages they have is ridiculous. So here you go, I'll play this game. I'll compile all of Brees' stats for every single game he's ever played and come up with a figure that we can agree is fair of what advantage Brees had playing in a dome. Then I'll take that figure and subtract it from each home game he's had for the Saints and see where he's at by comparison and how much longer he would have to play in order to accomplish what he already has in reality. Maybe then we can stop hearing this fair weather QB nonsense Anybody want to chime in on a good way to quantify that figure is more than welcome. I'd like it to show as little bias as I possibly can. Amen Rajn he seems to never get his due. Guys a stud period end of story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doobwaa Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 i was wearing my Brees jersey ...it's blue but hey, was sad to see him go and have always been a fan its pretty simple for me....the QB is supposed to be a leader, throw the ball, score and win games -- there aren't many who have put it all together and done it better....ever. well done Brees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Here is what I've got so far: Brees' home field advantage per game in the Superdome is as follows: Completion% -2.97% Yds -3.79 TDs -.59 INTs .09 Pass rating -11.07 I took the average of the following outdoor QBs and came up with a home field dome advantage vs home field outdoor. Brady .11% | 8.28 | .05 | .27 | -1.46 Favre -.45% | 5.84 | -.14 | -.13 | -.5 Rodgers -2.72% | -8.7 | -.4 | .15 | -10.6 Roethlisberger -.9% | -17.93 | -.52 | .15 | -8.81 Elway -2.84% | -25.52 | -.45 | .06 | -9.35 Marino -1.66% | -21.56 | -.24 | -.2 | -4.27 Brees numbers - Average -1.56% | 6.14 | -.3 | 0 | -4.49 Already, this whole exercise is a waste. Take a look at Rodgers and Elway, their home field advantage numbers are almost identical to Brees'. And before you say that's because they were better QBs, Brady's numbers are actually worse at home and Favre not much better. As it stands now the average would only add to Brees' yardage totals by about 6 yds per game and not increase his interception rate at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I'd like to add before moving on and making a decision on how to "fairly" reduce Brees' numbers to negate any dome advantage inflating his stats. The comment was made that Brees is a fair weather QB. In all honesty, how many games are actually played in "foul weather" during a season? Maybe a handful at best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 There’s no reason for anyone to reduce Brees. He’s an all-time great. If someone can’t see that with their eyes, they are hopeless. At 39 he looks as sharp as ever. It will be fun to see how he and Brady finish up. Imo, the career records for passing yards and TDs will come down to who plays longer, not talent. Yards may not even come into play if Brady plays one more than Brees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Caveman_Nick said: There’s no reason for anyone to reduce Brees. He’s an all-time great. If someone can’t see that with their eyes, they are hopeless. At 39 he looks as sharp as ever. It will be fun to see how he and Brady finish up. Imo, the career records for passing yards and TDs will come down to who plays longer, not talent. Yards may not even come into play if Brady plays one more than Brees. Well said. I don't spend a lot of time or effort on ranking all time greats in sports, because comparing eras is very difficult. There is no doubt that players today are putting up gaudy stats compared to guys who retired just a few years ago, and the QBs who started playing in the last 20 years have easily outpaced the greats that came before them. Brees is an elite QB, now and in history. Is that top 10 or 20, doesn't matter to me. rajn, Don't waste your time justifying it, most agree, and those that don't are not often swayed by facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, stevegrab said: rajn, Don't waste your time justifying it, most agree, and those that don't are not often swayed by facts. I know, but it's an exercise I always wanted to take on anyway. BTW, of the QBs I compared Brees to, guess how the players ranked in completion percentage in outdoor games? Rodgers 65.18% Brees 64.77% Roethlisberger 64.10% Brady 63.54% Favre 61.94% Marino 59.51% Elway 56.99% Brees while with the Saints 66.73% Edited October 11, 2018 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Passer ratings outdoors: Rodgers 103.64 Brady 96.76 Roethlisberger 94.22 Brees 89.82 (Saints 93.73) Favre 87.64 Marino 87.20 Elway 80.84 Yds per game outdoors Rodgers 269.33 Brady 261.15 Roethlisberger 257.34 Marino 256.94 Brees 253.71 (Saints 290.14) Favre 237.25 Elway 223.68 Look at all those fair weather QBs who Brees consistently outperforms playing outdoors. 290 yds per game. That's just ridiculous. Brees ranks 4th in least interceptions both with and without the Saints and 6th in TDs overall and 3rd in TDs with the Saints behind Rodgers and Brady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Since you want to do this exercise.... Where do those guys play their outdoor games compared to Brees? NO plays TB and CAR on the road every year, Brady has to play in BUF/NY every year, Rodgers in CHI, Ben CIN/PIT/BAL/CLE. Maybe you should look at stats in the cold, or snow, or rain. (I think you can do some of that on Pro Football Reference) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 14 hours ago, stevegrab said: Since you want to do this exercise.... Where do those guys play their outdoor games compared to Brees? NO plays TB and CAR on the road every year, Brady has to play in BUF/NY every year, Rodgers in CHI, Ben CIN/PIT/BAL/CLE. Maybe you should look at stats in the cold, or snow, or rain. (I think you can do some of that on Pro Football Reference) Yeah rajncajn, and while you're at it, can can you compare it to the younger talented QBs (i.e. Wentz, Mahomes, Watson)? I would like to know who has the best chance of being an all time great so I can draft my team appropriately for the next 10 years. BTW....J/K 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelredd9 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Every time people discuss who is the best quarterback ever, they assume that all of the best quarterbacks have played since 1980 because of quarterback statistic inflation. Bart Starr never had more than 16 touchdowns but he was great. Otto Graham never threw for 3,000 yards but he was great. If Drew Brees is the 4th best quarterback of his generation behind Brady, Manning, and Rodgers, then it stands to reason that Brees is probably about the 10th or 20th best quarterback ever. Personally, I don't believe that Brees is necessarily the 4th best quarterback of his generation. I think I'd put Manning first and a three-way tie between Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. And trying to compare them to the great quarterbacks of the past is an exercise in futility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) Manning took a dump in his uniform in way too many big games to be considered the best ever or even the best of this group. All time great, yes. Best of those 4? Nah. I put him third, if I am ranking. Brady, Brees, Manning, Rogers. I will get accused of homer glasses, fine, but IMO when you look at team success both playoffs and regular season, passing numbers, longevity, and accolades, noting that none of those players other than Manning ever had any sustained time with terrific skill players, Brady is far and away the top of that group. Brees has done more with less in less time than Manning, ans has enjoyed similar overall success. Rogers...well...keep trying to stay healthy. The game is more fun when you are in it, but you keep getting knocked out. Edited October 13, 2018 by Caveman_Nick 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 15 hours ago, Caveman_Nick said: Manning took a dump in his uniform in way too many big games to be considered the best ever or even the best of this group. All time great, yes. Best of those 4? Nah. I put him third, if I am ranking. Brady, Brees, Manning, Rogers. I will get accused of homer glasses, fine, but IMO when you look at team success both playoffs and regular season, passing numbers, longevity, and accolades, noting that none of those players other than Manning ever had any sustained time with terrific skill players, Brady is far and away the top of that group. Brees has done more with less in less time than Manning, ans has enjoyed similar overall success. Rogers...well...keep trying to stay healthy. The game is more fun when you are in it, but you keep getting knocked out. Manning the only one with sustained time with terrific players? Manning also never had the defense or coaching that Brady did. Brees also had superior and consistent coaching. Rodgers has had some pretty terrific talent too. Sorry sounds like your bias has you discounting Mannning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Manning played with Harrison, Wayne and Clark for years, and had a top notch offensive line. Let’s not forget the security blanket of edgerrin james. none of the other QBs had that level of talent around them for the number of years Manning did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gourdeau Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) Who was Marvin Harrison before Manning, and who were Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne After Manning ?? Here are the links. Lets also look at what the entire colts and broncos franchises have become since manning left both those squads ? .. On the flip side, how did New England do when Brady was hurt and suspended ? 11-5 and 3-1 .. You also neglect to mention the security blanket of Corey Dillon for 3 years, and bahemeth TE Combo in Hernandez and Gronk for another 3 seasons and one of the greatest if not the greatest WR in history for another 3 seasons, so I'm not sure why the other guys are the only ones who have had sustained talent, again not to mention the incredible defenses that Tom benefited from. Finally,If I'm starting a franchise, I take Belichick over ANY of those supporting talents all day everyday and definitely twice on Sundays.. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WaynRe00.htm https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClarDa00.htm Edited October 14, 2018 by Gourdeau 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I’m not saying the other players never had any talent around them. I am saying none of them had as much for as long as Manning. I’m not even counting talented guys that didn’t stick very long like Austin Collie or Pierre Garcon, and I didn’t mention his always-on security slot receiver Brandon Stokley. Maybe his offensive line was only amazing because of the illegal hearing aids, but we won’t talk about that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebdog Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 10/12/2018 at 10:31 AM, michaelredd9 said: Every time people discuss who is the best quarterback ever, they assume that all of the best quarterbacks have played since 1980 because of quarterback statistic inflation. Bart Starr never had more than 16 touchdowns but he was great. Otto Graham never threw for 3,000 yards but he was great. If Drew Brees is the 4th best quarterback of his generation behind Brady, Manning, and Rodgers, then it stands to reason that Brees is probably about the 10th or 20th best quarterback ever. Personally, I don't believe that Brees is necessarily the 4th best quarterback of his generation. I think I'd put Manning first and a three-way tie between Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. And trying to compare them to the great quarterbacks of the past is an exercise in futility. this is where i was coming from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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