Gates threatening to sit

[Bill Swerski]

This isn't indentured servitude.  All the contract says is that if a player is going to play in the NFL, it will be with Team X for Y number of years at $Z.  Holding out is just threatening to not play in the NFL, similar to the threat of cutting for not restructuring.  It is precisely the same thing.

 

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I still feel that a player holding out is ethically worse than a team cutting a player (to whom they gave a substantial signing bonus up front). Legally-speaking, I agree that they're the same, but legality and ethics are two very different things. We can agree to disagree.

[ebartender]

I still feel that a player holding out is ethically worse than a team cutting a player (to whom they gave a substantial signing bonus up front).  Legally-speaking, I agree that they're the same, but legality and ethics are two very different things.  We can agree to disagree.

 

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Do you know what Gates' received as a signing bonus for his current contract? I doubt it was very "substantial". Also, what is the total value and number of years of his current contract?

[Bill Swerski]

Do you know what Gates' received as a signing bonus for his current contract?  I doubt it was very "substantial".  Also, what is the total value and number of years of his current contract?

 

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I'll bet it's more than you make in a year. Is that not substantial? Gates hadn't produced in the NFL prior to his current contract, so why should they have given him a ton of money? After the Ryan Leaf debacle, I'd be pretty darn careful about how much guaranteed money I give to unproven players.

 

It's all a moot point anyway, as the Chargers will almost certainly re-sign Gates to a long-term deal.

[Donutrun Jellies]

No more unethical than teams cutting players.  That's ending a contract, too.  Neither side sticks with a contract.  Both use leverage anytime they get it.

 

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Close, but wrong. Provision for cutting a player is in the contract -- provision for holding out is not. I have less problem with a player wanting to renegotiate -- and Gates certainly has earned more money and should be rewarded -- but skipping games and hurting his team? BAH!! That's for losers. Here's hoping Gates doesn't get seduced down that road of greedy stupidity.

[Rovers]

I really, really cant stand when baseball players demand new contracts, but football.... with contracts that are not garanteed, and a career ending injury always a play away.... I'd be harpin for more money, derned straight I would. NFL teams will throw you on the wayside as soon as spit on sidewalk.

[ebartender]

I'll bet it's more than you make in a year.  Is that not substantial?  Gates hadn't produced in the NFL prior to his current contract, so why should they have given him a ton of money?  After the Ryan Leaf debacle, I'd be pretty darn careful about how much guaranteed money I give to unproven players.

 

It's all a moot point anyway, as the Chargers will almost certainly re-sign Gates to a long-term deal.

 

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The best way to answer this I guess is for me to ask you what you would do. Would you actually play out your current contract or hold out for a better contract? If you say you would play under your current contract I believe you would be in a very small minority. This is a business and any leverage you can get you will use. Is it ethical? Not really, but then what business is?

[Dr. Love]

I still feel that a player holding out is ethically worse than a team cutting a player (to whom they gave a substantial signing bonus up front).  Legally-speaking, I agree that they're the same, but legality and ethics are two very different things.  We can agree to disagree.

 

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I guess I don't see it. Why is it ethical for the team to quit paying a guy because he isn't performing quite to the level he's being paid (or sometimes, just because the team got itself into a financial pickle) but it isn't ethical for for a player to ask for a raise when he's performing far beyond any expectations that were laid out before him?

[Dr. Love]

Close, but wrong.  Provision for cutting a player is in the contract -- provision for holding out is not.  I have less problem with a player wanting to renegotiate -- and Gates certainly has earned more money and should be rewarded -- but skipping games and hurting his team?  BAH!!  That's for losers.  Here's hoping Gates doesn't get seduced down that road of greedy stupidity.

 

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Well there's no provision for threatening to cut a player if they don't take a pay cut, which absolutely happens. You don't read about it, because teams generally don't go through the media for that sort of thing. There doesn't need to be a provision for holding out. They have a right to not play. All a player is doing threatening to exercise that right. Like I said before, this isn't indentured servitude... the right to not work is implicit. If the player isn't very valuable, the team always has the option of letting him sit.

 

I think we're on the same boat about players who greatly exceed expectations being able to get a raise... but why should it be at the sole discretion of the team? Players have a very limited earning window, and they need to make hay while the sun shines.

 

I think people take it more personally when a player sits, because fans support the team, not the individuals on it. So when a player gets cut, or his cap number gets reduced, fans feel like they've been helped. When a player sits fo more money, fans feel like they're being held hostage. As a fan, it's natural to identify with the team and it's needs, but one has to be able to see thing from a player's perspective, as well.

[Bill Swerski]

I guess I don't see it.  Why is it ethical for the team to quit paying a guy because he isn't performing quite to the level he's being paid (or sometimes, just because the team got itself into a financial pickle) but it isn't ethical for for a player to ask for a raise when he's performing far beyond any expectations that were laid out before him?

 

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He's certainly entitled to ask for a raise. But we were talking about a guy boycotting work because he isn't satisfied with his contract. He's legally able to do that, but I don't think it's a terribly ethical thing to do. Again, that's JMO. When was the last time that you asked your boss for a raise and then boycotted work because they didn't want or couldn't afford to give you one?

 

People get laid off for numerous reasons in the real world. Unlike many of the other major sports, the CBA between the NFL owners and the NFLPA works in a similar fashion. Unlike the real world, teams have to take salary cap penalties when they do so. Also in contrast to the real world, productive workers like Gates won't be out of work for long. And they'll probably get paid significantly more at their next job.

[broncosn05]

I'd like to see the players do the same.

 

Basically let the Players Union make it known that all players will boycott any NFL Team that fails to honor contracts they have signed with their players.

 

That way we wouldn't see the crap like what the Pats are doing to Troy Brown    

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Gates IMO has completely not given as much as Brown. Brown also IMO is an average player at 3 positions and if he is so good than teams should be all over him!!!!!!!

[Big Score 1]

I don't like this.,  You see this is why the players make so much because a one year wonder explodes his name and contract.  I tell him that he's sitting and if he pulls this $hit again he's gone.  That way you get the players that really love the game instead of money flips

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I'd like to see the players do the same.

 

Basically let the Players Union make it known that all players will boycott any NFL Team that fails to honor contracts they have signed with their players.

 

That way we wouldn't see the crap like what the Pats are doing to Troy Brown    

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Gates IMO has completely not given as much as Brown.  Brown also IMO is an average player at 3 positions and if he is so good than teams should be all over him!!!!!!!

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Gates & Brown are just the examples used. You can substitute both their names for a plethora of other players / teams who have been in like situations.

 

It's simply about you saying you don't like to see players use their leverage with a team, to get a better contract than the one they initially signed - vs - me saying I don't like seeing teams use their leverage over a player, to force said player into renegoitiating his original signed contract to a completely new contract, that favors the team.

 

In reality, I don't like seeing either the players or Teams, not honoring their contracts. I think if both parties, were forced to honor the contracts, it would most likely be for the best.

 

But as it stands now, there are two chances of that happening...and they are slim & none. Neither side honors these contracts.

 

As I said before these contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on (Excepting guaranteed money)

[broncosn05]

Gates & Brown are just the examples used. You can substitute both their names for a plethora of other players / teams who have been in like situations.

 

It's simply about you saying you don't like to see players use their leverage with a team, to get a better contract than the one they initially signed - vs - me saying I don't like seeing teams use their leverage over a player, to force said player into renegoitiating his original signed contract to a completely new contract, that favors the team.

 

In reality, I don't like seeing either the players or Teams, not honoring their contracts. I think if both parties, were forced to honor the contracts, it would most likely be for the best.

 

But as it stands now, there are two chances of that happening...and they are slim & none. Neither side honors these contracts.

 

As I said before these contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on   (Excepting guaranteed money)

 

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I guess we are entitled to our on opinions

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Non-guaranteed contracts were agreed upon by both owners and the player's union in the CBA.  Unless I'm mistaken, the concept of "holding out" was not.  Players get signing bonuses (paid in full up front) in the NFL, which were implemented to offset the fact that their contracts are not guaranteed.  In that regard, it's difficult to argue that holding out is as ethical as a team terminating a contract.

 

That said, I typically don't fault players like Gates for holding out.

 

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You are half-correct, Swerski.

 

In the "contracts", there are, of course, provisions for players voluntarily skipping practices, meetings, and/or games. Those provisions are monetary fines. The fines are "agreed upon" in the contracts, so, theoretically, teams tell players it's okay to hold out if they agree to pay the team "X" amount of money.

 

The non-guaranteed contract agreement is generally a good one, but for it to be perfect, the CBA needs to include more liberal regulations for contract incentives. If the salary cap were more friendly to incentive-based contracts, they would be more common. Incentives are the only way to make non-guaranteed contracts good for both the player and the team.

[Big Score 1]

I guess we are entitled to our on opinions

 

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And there's absolutely nothing wrong with having differing opinions at all.

 

Actually, our opinions aren't all that dissimilar, when you really think about it.

We are both of the same opinion, in that contracts should be honored.

The only difference between us, is who we think should be honoring the contracts.

 

You think it's the players who should be honoring the contracts.

I think it's the teams who should be honoring the contracts.

 

Lets split the difference and say BOTH sides should be honoring the contracts!

[NAUgrad]

He was their best player last year no doubt (jesse chatman proved that tomlinson isn't the greatest player int he world by averaging 6.0 yards a carry, scoring 3 t'ds and totaling 400 yards on the season.)

 

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What!!! Don't you think having a stud RB helped open up the passing game!!! How can you even think for a second that Jesse Chatman is half the RB Tomlinson is. Tomlinson is the best player on this team period.