Batch 1-0, Roethlisberger 0-2

[Menudo]

I have nothing to say about this thread and Ben but, I thought you had a life outside football and FF in particular. You've watched everyone of Ben's plays from scrimmage, watch football three days a week all season long. Where do you find time for a life after dedicating half the week to football. I know you've said you have a job. Do you sleep???

 

Being serious, if you've been a student of football for the time you say you have then you know Ben is not a great QB. AS stated, he's a game manager and does have some sparks of being on his way to a good QB but, is not quite there. His success is the product of a great team and running game. He will turn out to be a good QB. Can't you be good with that? If he does turn out to be a great QB for Pitt. all the better but don't make him out to be more than what he is right now.

 

 

Well, my personal life comes first, and if something important comes up, I knew where my priorities are. I do, admittedly, have a bit of an obsession with football, which will probably calme down when my son is born in December.

 

I'm not putting Ben up there with Carson Palmer and Peyton Manning by any means. Also, realize that when talking about him, I am taking into account his youth and that there is still room to grow. I just think that people are too quick to diminish his impact on the Steelers. They were 6-10 in the year before he took over at QB. He is a HUGH reason for their past success. Obviously their are others, but, he is definitely a big reason. If you don't believe me, watch the 3 playoff games last year.

[Bengal Mania]

I'm not putting Ben up there with Carson Palmer.....

 

"Not anymore" anyway, there was a time where you had them pretty equally ranked.

 

But you have been consistent in your updated comparison.

 

Damm!t, I just agreed with you again! I need a beer.

[Menudo]

"Not anymore" anyway, there was a time where you had them pretty equally ranked.

 

But you have been consistent in your updated comparison.

 

Damm!t, I just agreed with you again! I need a beer.

 

 

Well, at the time, there was reason to compare, Carson has changed that.

[Vet]

I can't believe this post has gotten 53 responses.

 

KevinL should be on one of those Saturday morning bass fishing shows on ESPN.

 

[LooGie]

Your delusional Menudo- get real for once. Just glancing at the stats- I counted 15 MINIMUM QB's I would take over Roth. If you think he has a strong arm you really don't know football- he throws ducks, his ball flutters. This is nothing personal at all-as I have told you I like alot of Pitt players.

 

Roth to me is one of the more overrated players in the NFL- period.

 

 

 

There's no way, anyone would be this blind, except perhaps an actual blind person. Roth is not only mobile, he's damn near IMPOSSIBLE to tackle in the pocket. He strong arms his way through would be tacklers and scrambles and throws on a FROZEN ROPE constantly. For a 2 year QB last year, he was AMAZING. For a 3 year QB this year, he looks like a rookie. But he nearly died. He had an emergency appendectomy and played..15 DAYS LATER!!! That alone warrants a nod as a starting QB in the NFL. If there's 15 other fantasy QBs you'd rather have, great. If there's 15 other QBs for your NFL team you'd rather have, you're an idiot.

[Menudo]

 

There's no way, anyone would be this blind, except perhaps an actual blind person. Roth is not only mobile, he's damn near IMPOSSIBLE to tackle in the pocket. He strong arms his way through would be tacklers and scrambles and throws on a FROZEN ROPE constantly. For a 2 year QB last year, he was AMAZING. For a 3 year QB this year, he looks like a rookie. But he nearly died. He had an emergency appendectomy and played..15 DAYS LATER!!! That alone warrants a nod as a starting QB in the NFL. If there's 15 other fantasy QBs you'd rather have, great. If there's 15 other QBs for your NFL team you'd rather have, you're an idiot.

 

 

Unfortunately Loogie, Wildcat wasn't fishing. He has been saying that Ben has a weak arm and is immobile for some time now.

[wildcat2334]

 

Wow, Menudo and Loogie on the same side- I am in trouble.

 

Roth is one of the most OVERRATED players in the league end of story, and I could care less what Menudo and Loogie think. And yes, there are at least 15 QB's in the NFL that give you a better chance to win on Sundays and throw a better ball than Roth. His arm is below average-

 

Big Ben is one he11 of a tackler though.

[Menudo]

 

Wow, Menudo and Loogie on the same side- I am in trouble.

 

Roth is one of the most OVERRATED players in the league end of story, and I could care less what Menudo and Loogie think. And yes, there are at least 15 QB's in the NFL that give you a better chance to win on Sundays and throw a better ball than Roth. His arm is below average-

 

Big Ben is one he11 of a tackler though.

 

 

So, basically, you are right, and all of the people in those sources that I quoted are wrong ? Each one says that Ben's biggest strenghts are his arm and mobility.... and trust me, there are thousands more.

 

O.k. I've got it now.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Menudo

[alexgaddis]

well certainly every team would rather have say, Michael Vick...I mean, have you seen how fast that guy is?

[wildcat2334]

If you think Roth has a strong arm, can throw the deep out well, you flat out do not know football. PERIOD.

 

In no particular order, guys I want as my QB over Roth.

 

McNabb

Favre

PManning

Brees

EManning

Pennington

Bledsoe

Delhomme

Bulger

Palmer

Hasselbeck

Brady

Carr

McNair

Leftwich

 

could probably throw in

Rivers

Grossman

not even including the man, the myth Ron Mexico

[Perchoutofwater]

If you think Roth has a strong arm, can throw the deep out well, you flat out do not know football. PERIOD.

 

In no particular order, guys I want as my QB over Roth.

 

McNabb

Favre

PManning

Brees (Maybe)

EManning

Pennington

Bledsoe

Delhomme

Bulger

Palmer

Hasselbeck

Brady

Carr

McNair

Leftwich (Maybe)

 

could probably throw in

Rivers (Not this year, but probably in the future)

Grossman (I probably would)

not even including the man, the myth Ron Mexico (No way I want him on my team)

 

[Bier Meister]

what can i say? i'm nostalgic...... from a post following the SB

 

 

 

 

 

just wanted to remind you of my stance...... running game and D.

 

 

 

QUOTE(Bier Meister @ 1/22/06 11:18pm)

i'm sorry riki... but i don't think he is there yet... he is getting better.

 

today he took what was given to him.... i saw a very loose secondary giving large cushions to the wr's. i also saw 3 balls that should have been picked (one for a td). i still think you could insert about 75% of the current starting qb's and get similar results.

 

he still has a way to go to reach the status that you are currently giving him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

QUOTE(Menudo @ 1/23/06 1:40pm)

Well, see you are still below where I'm at. I'd put Peyton, Brady, & Carson in the A- to A+ range and Ben at the B to B+ range. Roethlisberger has done everyting asked of him, and has rarely failed. It has been said over and over again that he can't put the team on his back and win it with the passing game. He proved that wrong in both of the last two games. I think proving that wrong in the 2 most important games of your life is quite impressive.

 

I do think he is a great QB, just not as great as the 4 others that were mentioned. There is still room for improvement though. I guess a lot of it depends on what you want out of your QB. I want efficiency, and he was 5th in the NFL last year, and 3rd in the NFL this year in that department.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

QUOTE(Bier Meister @ 1/23/06 11:58pm)

by system guy i specifically mean that he is a guy that benefited from the system that he is in. pitt has traditionally been a run first type of team... similar to brady the past few years with respect to the running game and defense. years that brady had his best numbers they didn't reach playoffs one year and missed the sb this year. pitt's system allows him to take fewer risks. i wouldn't argue that it holds him back, but it is to his advantage. he does a fine job.... doesn't turn it over often.... but i really don't think he can carry a team like brady finally did this year.

 

riki... while i think he did well vs indy, i still don't think he did anything anyone else couldn't have done vs denver with the pass protection and soft coverage.

 

edit: just for kicks i looked up his game log for the year:

 

- 1 300 yd game (lost)

- 6 games with 20 or fewer attempts (6-0)

- 6 games with less than 200 yards (5-1)

- he did not play in 4 games (2-2)

- passed for 30 or more attemps 2 times (1-1)

- defense allowed fewer than 17 pts 8 times (7-1)

- defense allowed 10 or fewer pts 6 times (6-0)

- defense allowed more than 20 pts 7 times (3-4) (ben was 3-3)

[Menudo]

If you think Roth has a strong arm, can throw the deep out well, you flat out do not know football. PERIOD.

 

 

Lets hear your football resume. I've heard guys like Pasquerelli & Jaworski talk about Ben's arm strength and mobility, do you know more than them.

 

I don't mind you listing who you think is better than Roethlisberger, more power to you, but, to say his weaknesses are mobility and arm strength proves that you really haven't watched him play very much.

 

Please keep telling me how I don't know football Even my biggest haters admit that I know football.

 

Roethlisberger = Immobile

[Menudo]

what can i say? i'm nostalgic...... from a post following the SB

just wanted to remind you of my stance...... running game and D.

QUOTE(Bier Meister @ 1/22/06 11:18pm)

i'm sorry riki... but i don't think he is there yet... he is getting better.

 

today he took what was given to him.... i saw a very loose secondary giving large cushions to the wr's. i also saw 3 balls that should have been picked (one for a td). i still think you could insert about 75% of the current starting qb's and get similar results.

 

he still has a way to go to reach the status that you are currently giving him.

QUOTE(Menudo @ 1/23/06 1:40pm)

Well, see you are still below where I'm at. I'd put Peyton, Brady, & Carson in the A- to A+ range and Ben at the B to B+ range. Roethlisberger has done everyting asked of him, and has rarely failed. It has been said over and over again that he can't put the team on his back and win it with the passing game. He proved that wrong in both of the last two games. I think proving that wrong in the 2 most important games of your life is quite impressive.

 

I do think he is a great QB, just not as great as the 4 others that were mentioned. There is still room for improvement though. I guess a lot of it depends on what you want out of your QB. I want efficiency, and he was 5th in the NFL last year, and 3rd in the NFL this year in that department.

QUOTE(Bier Meister @ 1/23/06 11:58pm)

by system guy i specifically mean that he is a guy that benefited from the system that he is in. pitt has traditionally been a run first type of team... similar to brady the past few years with respect to the running game and defense. years that brady had his best numbers they didn't reach playoffs one year and missed the sb this year. pitt's system allows him to take fewer risks. i wouldn't argue that it holds him back, but it is to his advantage. he does a fine job.... doesn't turn it over often.... but i really don't think he can carry a team like brady finally did this year.

 

riki... while i think he did well vs indy, i still don't think he did anything anyone else couldn't have done vs denver with the pass protection and soft coverage.

 

edit: just for kicks i looked up his game log for the year:

 

- 1 300 yd game (lost)

- 6 games with 20 or fewer attempts (6-0)

- 6 games with less than 200 yards (5-1)

- he did not play in 4 games (2-2)

- passed for 30 or more attemps 2 times (1-1)

- defense allowed fewer than 17 pts 8 times (7-1)

- defense allowed 10 or fewer pts 6 times (6-0)

- defense allowed more than 20 pts 7 times (3-4) (ben was 3-3)

 

 

So, the team wins more when the defense plays better. Wow. Amazing. Lets see these same numbers for Carson Palmer please.

 

I've never said that Ben didn't get put into a good system. However, it works both ways. His lack of attempts give him less opportunities to put up big yardage and TD numbers.

 

Obviously, I'm not talking about this year, but, prior to the Superbowl and this year's game, he has been a terrific QB. He doesn't make mistakes and wins games when they need him to (see last year's playoffs)........... I'm just waiting for that guy to show back up.

 

It's all a matter of opinion, and you make some valid points, but, its the people who go to the other extreme and say he has a weak arm, is immobile , and is in the bottom half of NFL QB's that bother me. People like you who state your opinion in a well thought out way, even if I disagree with it, don't bother me at all.

[LooGie]

 

Wow, Menudo and Loogie on the same side- I am in trouble.

 

Roth is one of the most OVERRATED players in the league end of story, and I could care less what Menudo and Loogie think. And yes, there are at least 15 QB's in the NFL that give you a better chance to win on Sundays and throw a better ball than Roth. His arm is below average-

 

Big Ben is one he11 of a tackler though.

 

oh. well i didn't realize you were basing your points on such obvious facts as "Roth is one of the most OVERRATED players in the league end of story, and I could care less what Menudo and Loogie think."

 

You'll forgive me if I assumed you were only basing your arguments on rediculous, asinine, half-thoughts rumbling around your anti-steeler sub concious. Keep up the good work bud. Let me know the next time you have to debate.

I'll pick the opposite view of you, just for the pure pleasure of it.

[Bier Meister]

So, the team wins more when the defense plays better. Wow. Amazing. Lets see these same numbers for Carson Palmer please.

 

i will dig up number on palmer for you. but don't miss the point... that d and running game is what produced the wins... this was not ben's doing.

 

I've never said that Ben didn't get put into a good system. However, it works both ways. His lack of attempts give him less opportunities to put up big yardage and TD numbers.

 

as i inferred after the sb, when having to pass, he is not going to find that same success.... losses. he was not asked to do much at the position. now that he is, i believe he is showing more about his qb capa bilities= average qb.

 

Obviously, I'm not talking about this year, but, prior to the Superbowl and this year's game, he has been a terrific QB. He doesn't make mistakes and wins games when they need him to (see last year's playoffs)........... I'm just waiting for that guy to show back up.

 

It's all a matter of opinion, and you make some valid points, but, its the people who go to the other extreme and say he has a weak arm, is immobile , and is in the bottom half of NFL QB's that bother me. People like you who state your opinion in a well thought out way, even if I disagree with it, don't bother me at all.

 

you know, i'm not out to bother anyone. i just want you to see the light i think your glasses are dipped in black and yellow

 

[Menudo]

as i inferred after the sb, when having to pass, he is not going to find that same success.... losses. he was not asked to do much at the position. now that he is, i believe he is showing more about his qb capa bilities= average qb.

 

 

Bier, go look at the 3 playoff wins. In each one, the defenses came out to stop the run in the 1st half, and the Steelers turned Ben loose on them. In the 2nd half of those games, they played with the lead, but, to say this team can't win when they depend on him throwing was proven to be incorrect in those 3 playoff games.

[Menudo]

If you think Roth has a strong arm, can throw the deep out well, you flat out do not know football. PERIOD.

 

 

Wildcat, here is some video proof of his arm strength and mobility. I don't expect you to ever admit you are wrong, but, here it is:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRbLcTEPrA0

 

You don't need to watch the whole thing, as there are lots of examples, here are the best ones:

 

Strong Arm:

 

3:11 mark - Across his body 55 yards.

3:18 mark - On the run across his body 55 yards.

 

Mobility:

 

3:39 mark

4:28 mark

 

[wildcat2334]

 

touche-

 

you can spit out all the facts and homerisms you want. I go by what I see- and I see a QB with a suspect arm that is in the middle of the pack as far as NFL QB's-

 

Let's not get carried away here- any mention of Roth with Palmer,Brady, Mannings, Hass, etc is flat out ridiculous

[Menudo]

 

touche-

 

you can spit out all the facts and homerisms you want. I go by what I see- and I see a QB with a suspect arm that is in the middle of the pack as far as NFL QB's-

 

Let's not get carried away here- any mention of Roth with Palmer,Brady, Mannings, Hass, etc is flat out ridiculous

 

 

Well, at least you went from calling his arm 'weak' to calling it 'suspect' and have dropped the immobile thing, which was downright laughable.

 

You have your right to your opinion, I have my right to mine. I'm guessing I've watched a bit more of Ben than you have, but, then again, you will just accuse me of being swayed by my homerness.

 

By the way, I noticed you threw Hasselbeck in there with Manning, Brady, & Palmer...... And I really hope the (s) on the end of Manning was just a typo.....

Edited September 26, 2006 by Menudo

[Bier Meister]

palmer:

 

300 yd games= 3 (3-1)

less than 20 attempts= 1

less than 200 yds passing= 3 (2-1)

did not play= n/a

30+ attempts= 12

def allows 17 or less= 7 (7-0)

def allows 10 or less= 4 (4-0)

def allows 20 or more= 9 (4-5)

 

asked to do more and excels. remarkable difference imo between the 2 qb's. ben is middle of the pack.

[Menudo]

palmer:

 

300 yd games= 3 (3-1)

less than 20 attempts= 1

less than 200 yds passing= 3 (2-1)

did not play= n/a

30+ attempts= 12

def allows 17 or less= 7 (7-0)

def allows 10 or less= 4 (4-0)

def allows 20 or more= 9 (4-5)

 

asked to do more and excels. remarkable difference imo between the 2 qb's. ben is middle of the pack.

 

 

Remarkable difference ?

 

Which part ? The part that he is 4-5 when his defense allow 20 or more and Ben is 3-3 ?

 

I also found it humorous that you cited this sesaon as a good example of how right you are. First, that is completely forgetting all of the issues that he has had to overcome (not an excuse, but, he has dealt with a lot and is behind a bit), and 2nd, the running game and defense have done well.

 

He is failing right now, because, he is not the QB he has been in his previous two seasons.....and, what do you know, the team is suffering because of it. I've never seen a guy get so little credit for his wins and positive statistics and so much blame for his losses and negative statistics.

 

You can call him middle of the pack all you want, but, I can show you some remarkable numbes as well, that you will just continue to ignore and not give him credit for. Truth is, he is probably somewhere between where I have him and you have him, though, I don't expect you to admit that.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Menudo

[LooGie]

palmer:

 

300 yd games= 3 (3-1)

less than 20 attempts= 1

less than 200 yds passing= 3 (2-1)

did not play= n/a

30+ attempts= 12

def allows 17 or less= 7 (7-0)

def allows 10 or less= 4 (4-0)

def allows 20 or more= 9 (4-5)

 

asked to do more and excels. remarkable difference imo between the 2 qb's. ben is middle of the pack.

 

 

which is why you heard Menudo earlier say that Palmer is no longer comparable. Ben is middle of the pack. And for a 3rd QB, that's pretty impressive, but for a 2nd year QB, last year, he was incredible..

However, this debate started when someone said his arm was weak and he was immobile.

[Perchoutofwater]

Remarkable difference ?

 

Which part ? The part that he is 4-5 when his defense allow 20 or more and Ben is 3-3 ?

 

I also found it humorous that you cited this sesaon as a good example of how right you are. First, that is completely forgetting all of the issues that he has had to overcome (not an excuse, but, he has dealt with a lot and is behind a bit), and 2nd, the running game and defense have done well.

 

He is failing right now, because, he is not the QB he has been in his previous two seasons.....and, what do you know, the team is suffering because of it. I've never seen a guy get so little credit for his wins and positive statistics and so much blame for his losses and negative statistics.

 

You can call him middle of the pack all you want, but, I can show you some remarkable numbes as well, that you will just continue to ignore and not give him credit for. Truth is, he is probably somewhere between where I have him and you have him, though, I don't expect you to admit that.

 

 

 

Palmer has 3 times the 300 yard games

Ben through less than 20 yards 6 times compared to Palmer's 1.

Ben had less than 200 yds twice as often as Palmer

Palmer had 30+ attempts 12 times and Ben only twice.

 

Those are huge differences. Palmer is counted on to win games for his team, where as Ben is counted on not to lose the game for his. Ben is a game manager, not a game winner. Don't get me wrong, Ben doesn't suck, but he is only a little bit better than average.

[Menudo]

Palmer has 3 times the 300 yard games

Ben through less than 20 yards 6 times compared to Palmer's 1.

Ben had less than 200 yds twice as often as Palmer

Palmer had 30+ attempts 12 times and Ben only twice.

 

Those are huge differences. Palmer is counted on to win games for his team, where as Ben is counted on not to lose the game for his. Ben is a game manager, not a game winner. Don't get me wrong, Ben doesn't suck, but he is only a little bit better than average.

 

 

Though I disagree, and think he is getting blamed for something that is out of his control (the Steelers strong rushing game & defense), at least you make a valid argument.

 

If you look throughout his career, there have been games where he has won games for them, and not just managed them. I believe all three playoff games are good examples, as the Steelers came out throwing in all three, but, your point is well taken. Due to the fact that his team has a good defense and running game, we haven't had a chance to see what he can do in shootouts often enough to judge him.

 

Even I have to admit, this argument is sooooooooooooo beaten dead, that there is no need to go into it any further. You all know where I stand, and I know where some of you stand on the issue as well.

 

If Ben continues to play like garbage, you won't hear any excuses from me. Hopefully though, he will get back to playing like he did his first two years, because, whether he was mediocre in all of your eyes or not, I sure was enjoying all the winning.......

 

P.S. I asked for Palmer's numbers out of curiosity. I've stated several times that I think Palmer and Peyton are in a tier of their own at this point.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Menudo