To IDP or not to IDP

[Hambone]

OK - looking for feedback. Running a league for a long time and a couple owners keep begging for IDP.

I am also in 1 other league with IDP.

 

I have tried playing with scoring rules in multiple fashions and I am not impressed with IDP.

It just does not seem to make a difference.

Looking for feedback.

Here are my concerns

Unlike Offensive players - you cann say on a weekly basis that this IDP is going to force a fumble recover and run 50 yards for a touch down - Maybe there a couple players you suspect will have 1 or 2 a season, but it is not like you can count on it week in week out.

Also - IDP with points for tackles tends to favor players on bad offensive teams more than good defensive teams. Bad Offense means D is on the field.

Bad D that give up 5 yards a carry means 20 plays down the fielld = 20 tackles

So a lineman on a team with a bad offense and a so/so D will be able to get 8 tackles a game.

This does not equate to value in my opinion.

Take away points for Tackles, Assists, Passes Defended, and then you are just looking at points for special actions. Sacks is about hte only thing I could say you can look at a player and go -

WOW he gets a sack almost every game!

is it worth setting up IDP and only giving points for sacks and interceptions?

I also looked at multiple scoring designs and notice there tends to be a lot of parity between the #1 player and the #20 player maybe a 10% drop. Compared to QB, RB, WR the rate of change between 1 - 20 is up over 25%

 

So as I look at an IDP system with 2 IDP (DT,DE, LB, CB, S) and build a basic scoring system

I am seeing that players just tend to get 7-10 points a game with maybe a stand out week or 2

and you cannot predict what that week or 2 will be. Force Fumble, recovery and TD - maybe it happens most likely not week in week out

 

So what am I missing?

[bostonsoxandy]

I'm in the same boat. League is split 50/50 on IDP. Debating on whether or not to do a taste test of IDP next year w/ 2 slots for any positions.

[keggerz]

I'm in the same boat. League is split 50/50 on IDP. Debating on whether or not to do a taste test of IDP next year w/ 2 slots for any positions.

 

As much as I want to get people to play IDP, doing what you are suggesting is something that I think does more damage than good...with just 2 slots per team you are pretty much making IDPs like kickers....have to run now but will try to chime in more later

[Bronco Billy]

Here's a pretty good thread from last year that you might want to take a good look at. It includes some analysis and some pretty strong opinions (shocking, I know) from me, as well as very solid input from others. I bumped it to the top for ease of finding it.

 

Link to IDP forum thread on this topic

[Bronco Billy]

Here are examples of 3 different leagues with differing IDP impact by scoring. I'm linking the scoring rules, but you can back out and go to the top performers listing to see how the IDP players compare to the O players in each league.

 

Low IDP impact - Ironman 2

 

Medium IDP impact - TOCOL

 

High IDP impact - ATAP

[Gopher]

I get what you're saying, but what does it matter if the best defensive players (statistically, anyway) are on teams with poor offenses? I don't think that's always the case, but nevertheless... The best play-makers on defense will score the most points, typically, no matter what scoring system is used. You could make the same argument about kickers... The ones who kick the most field goals (and often times score a lot of points) aren't necessarily on the best teams, but rather the teams that can't get the ball in the end zone.

 

Here is the thing about IDP versus non-IDP... The more simple the league, the easier it is for the casual fan to draft a relatively competitive team. In other words, back in the day, scoring was as simple as it gets... TD's, FG's, and extra points. Anybody that watches football at all could go out and draft a team, based on whatever fantasy magazine they chose to pick up, and their team would stand a decent chance of being competitive. Then, leagues added yardage points. After that, it was PPR. Then IDP, but only a player or two. Then, leagues decided that, to make things even MORE challenging, it makes sense to have as much value on defense as offense.

 

Depending on who you talk to, the above events might not have taken place in that exact order, but the bottom line is this... The more factors you include, the harder it is for a casual fan to be competitive in fantasy football. If you don't pay attention pretty much year-round, in a 16- or 32-team IDP dynasty league, you have little chance of success. Those leagues take luck out of the equation, to a certain degree... Not completely, but some of it.

 

I'm not trying to slam those who participate in simple leagues (non-IDP, non-PPR, etc.). I'm in a few of those as well, and they're a nice change of pace from the leagues that require more of my attention. But, if you want to compete with the best in the most challenging format possible, IDP is a good way to do so, in my opinion.

[Gopher]

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't use IDP... It depends on the league. For example, I'm in three leagues with mostly friends/family... One keeper (modified dynasty, basically) with my brothers and some friends, one very casual league with cousins/brothers/uncle, and a third (also very casual) with my wife's family. I would never even consider suggesting IDP in any of those leagues, because the majority of those people aren't that into fantasy football. I think they would lose interest quickly, and many of them would have no interest in drafting defensive players to begin with.

 

In my opinion, adding a roster spot or two isn't really IDP... Like Keg said, it's not much different than adding another kicker spot. If you're going to incorporate IDP, it's best done as an all-or-nothing move... Either add enough spots where it adds some significance, or don't bother. That said, if you're going to do IDP, it's probably easier to join an existing league, than to attempt to convince an existing league to adapt IDP (especially if multiple members of the league aren't really on board with the change).

[skhyatt]

I get what you're saying, but what does it matter if the best defensive players (statistically, anyway) are on teams with poor offenses? I don't think that's always the case, but nevertheless... The best play-makers on defense will score the most points, typically, no matter what scoring system is used. You could make the same argument about kickers... The ones who kick the most field goals (and often times score a lot of points) aren't necessarily on the best teams, but rather the teams that can't get the ball in the end zone.

 

 

Agree with what Gopher said here. I run two IDP leagues and adding a third this year, in addition I am in several basic leagues. I enjoy the basic leagues very much, but by far, have the most fun in the IDP leagues. I believe I have the scoring set up so that basically, your stud LB has almost as much value as your stud RB, and go from there. It's a blast and judging from the owners, they are also having a blast.

[Ice1]

As much as I want to get people to play IDP, doing what you are suggesting is something that I think does more damage than good...with just 2 slots per team you are pretty much making IDPs like kickers....have to run now but will try to chime in more later

 

 

Great Post!

 

IDP is the best game in town IMO but it takes very committed owners to understand defense. I have a run a league for years and our scoring is very balanced between offense and defense that we have tweaked over the years making both LB's and DE's extremely valuable. That said, you need enough starters to make it worthwhile and more importantly you need very committed ownership especially if balanced scoring between all positions is used as knowledge matters big time.

 

Our 14 team league starts 7 IDP players. 2 LB's, 2 DE/DT, 2 DB's, & 1 flex

Edited July 1, 2012 by Ice1

[skhyatt]

Great Post!

 

IDP is the best game in town IMO but it takes very committed owners to understand defense. I have a run a league for years and our scoring is very balanced between offense and defense that we have tweaked over the years making both LB's and DE's extremely valuable. That said, you need enough starters to make it worthwhile and more importantly you need very committed ownership especially if balanced scoring between all positions is used as knowledge matters big time.

 

Our 14 team league starts 7 IDP players. 2 LB's, 2 DE/DT, 2 DB's, & 1 flex

 

 

In our leagues, we start 8 IDP players. 2 DE/DT, 3 LB's and 3 DB's. Definitely requires more knowledge and/or a good site that offers IDP guidance. Anyway, definitely requires more time and commitment.

[TheCommish]

My league has started 9 IDPs (3 DL, 3 LB, 3 DB) for years, and we love it. Yeah, not all players score big points every week, but when your 3rd DL comes through with a 6 tackle, 2 sack game to give you a 3 point victory, it's just as sweet as if your 1st round pick rips off a 70-yard TD run.

[osu1322]

The biggest thing I have against IDP is that it is more work and time consuming. I personally like to have live drafts for our league and I couldn't imagine adding 10 more rds... (I'm assuming each team would have to draft 6 to 8 IDP and 3 to 5 back ups). Plus being a commish of an IDP league would only add to the usual stress of running a league.

[TheCommish]

The biggest thing I have against IDP is that it is more work and time consuming. I personally like to have live drafts for our league and I couldn't imagine adding 10 more rds... (I'm assuming each team would have to draft 6 to 8 IDP and 3 to 5 back ups). Plus being a commish of an IDP league would only add to the usual stress of running a league.

 

Once you get the hang of it, the extra 10 rounds isn't a big deal. We have had a 28-round draft in as little as 3 hours (although we are usually in the 3-1/2 to 4-hour range). And we always take short breaks after rounds 10 and 20 to gather ourselves, relieve ourselves, and re-group. We just reserve a big room in a local bar & grill, so we've got a cute young waitress coming by to take care of our food and drink. The only thing we have to worry about is our team.

 

I had to convince some of my owners to switch to IDP about 8 years ago, but I have been told many times that they would never go back to a non-IDP league. Even a pass defensed is exciting in IDP leagues, and if you happen to get the ultra-rare tackle/sack/forced fumble/fumble recovery/fumble recovery TD, well you just might need to change your shorts afterward.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

I just can't get excited about tracking tackles. :blech:

[irish]

I just can't get excited about tracking tackles. :blech:

 

 

Agreed. I just can't get into adding IDPs. Maybe someday but for now it would be too much and ruin FF for me.

[Bronco Billy]

I sincerely feel for the guys who don't want to consider IDPs. They honestly don't know how much fun they are missing. It's like the difference between driving a Hyundai and driving a Corvette. Sure, you can get the Hyundai up to 80 mph (going down a steep hill and with a stiff tailwind), but there's just no comparison in the two.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I sincerely feel for the guys who don't want to consider IDPs. They honestly don't know how much fun they are missing. It's like the difference between driving a Hyundai and driving a Corvette. Sure, you can get the Hyundai up to 80 mph (going down a steep hill and with a stiff tailwind), but there's just no comparison in the two.

 

 

I drive a Hyundai Sir!

[Bronco Billy]

I drive a Hyundai Sir!

 

 

I told you that you should have bought that corvette!

[Big John]

I told you that you should have bought that corvette!

 

Or the Dodge or Ford?

[keggerz]

people that played in or still play in TD only leagues probably felt/feel the same way about PPR

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Or the Dodge or Ford?

 

 

I do currently own a 1500 pickup and an Escape. Very good. Spooky really. Can you tell me whether I am wearing pants at the moment.

[Zooty]

people that played in or still play in TD only leagues probably felt/feel the same way about PPR points for yards gained.

 

 

And electricity for godsakes. Why bother improving on a candle.

[TheCommish]

I just can't get excited about tracking tackles. :blech:

 

What makes it really interesting is if you have, say, RB Adrian Peterson and LB Desmond Bishop playing in the same game. You would usually be thrilled to see ADP bust off a 50-yard TD, but in IDP you would rather have him rush 10 times for 50 yards and a TD in that drive, because Bishop would probably be involved in quite a few of those tackles.

 

If you say you are against switching to IDP, I would suggest watching a replay of an NFL game, and imagine that you have one IDP on each team (just pick a couple of players, like a DE and LB - good players). And you need 10 to 15 points for the win. You find yourself involved in the game more than you normally would be.