Texans?

[Azazello1313]

While I am glad that you did find something, I still don't think this proves what you were saying.  The last line of the article says this:

 

The Texans also are interested in North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams. He's the best defensive player in the draft. Ferens has been in contact with Ben Dogra, who represents Williams.

 

They were in contact with both of them.  You very well might be right, they may have wanted Bush, but, he balked at their offer.  Perhaps Bush didn't want to play for Houston ?  Perhaps, Mario settled for less ?  I really don't know the answers to those questions, and I doubt anyone outside of the Texans front office will ever know all of the details.  I just happen to be of the opinion that in the end, the Texans made the best decision for their football team by passing on Bush.  Don't get me wrong, I think Bush is going to be great, I think Mario Williams will be great, I just don't think Bush filled a need on a team that has tons of holes.

 

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well, i think it's obvious they had a very high grade on mario and really wanted him on their team. there's no way they'd pass on bush if they didn't like mario about as much. but i also don't think there's much doubt they take bush if bush agrees to mario's contract. which means, at least in part, that the choice of mario over bush was about money and signability. and THAT's what i was saying is stupid...because it seems like bush's star factor would have been worth tens of millions to the texans, easily offsetting his increased contract demands.

[Grits and Shins]

criminy...here you go, man-u-do....

link

 

then when they can't hammer out a deal with bush, at the 11th hour they decided mario was "co #1" on their board, who of course was more than happy to take what the texans had been offfering bush for at least a week. 

 

so what changed in the last week?  you think their assessment of the two players changed?

 

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You've assumed that they were negiotiating with Reggie Bush in good faith. Simply because they were talking to Reggie Bush doesn't mean they ever had any intentions of signing him.

[Grits and Shins]

but i also don't think there's much doubt they take bush if bush agrees to mario's contract. 

 

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I disagree ... there be no doubt in YOUR mind ... but I believe the Texans would have made the same move.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

well, i think it's obvious they had a very high grade on mario and really wanted him on their team.  there's no way they'd pass on bush if they didn't like mario about as much.  but i also don't think there's much doubt they take bush if bush agrees to mario's contract.  which means, at least in part, that the choice of mario over bush was about money and signability.  and THAT's what i was saying is stupid...because it seems like bush's star factor would have been worth tens of millions to the texans, easily offsetting his increased contract demands.

 

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That's really not a good argument. The best way to make money as an NFL owner is to win games. If Mario Williams make the team better, he's also the better financial investment.

 

Plus, under your set of guidelines, can the best player in any given draft just ask for however much money he wants? What if he wants $40 million guaranteed, just because he believes in his own "star factor"? Should the team give it to him just because he's the best player available? I think not.

 

1. Bush and Williams are relative equals in terms of NFL potential. Whoever claims to know otherwise is just speculating.

2. Williams filled a MUCH bigger need for the Texans; that alone probably means he'll help the TEAM more than Bush.

3. Williams agreed to reasonable contract terms, while Bush did not. For Bob McNair, that's just icing on the cake.

[Azazello1313]

You've assumed that they were negiotiating with Reggie Bush in good faith.  Simply because they were talking to Reggie Bush doesn't mean they ever had any intentions of signing him.

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so you're saying when they went to bush offering him a contract, they weren't ACTUALLY offering him a contract? what if he accepted their offer? "uhh...never mind, we're actually picking someone else".

 

look, you guys can defend the choice of williams being a better choice as far as addressing the team's needs and all that all day long. only time can tell who's right and who's wrong on that score.

 

what i'm saying is, there's a whole lot of circumstantial evidence that seems to clearly tell us that, all else being equal ($$), the texans take bush. HE'S the one they opened negotiations with a week before the draft, only to switch course when he asked for too much money. and to the extent money was involved in their decision AT ALL, they made a bonehead move.

[Menudo]

so you're saying when they went to bush offering him a contract, they weren't ACTUALLY offering him a contract?  what if he accepted their offer?  "uhh...never mind, we're actually picking someone else".

 

look, you guys can defend the choice of williams being a better choice as far as addressing the team's needs and all that all day long.  only time can tell who's right and who's wrong on that score. 

 

what i'm saying is, there's a whole lot of circumstantial evidence that seems to clearly tell us that, all else being equal ($$), the texans take bush.  HE'S the one they opened negotiations with a week before the draft, only to switch course when he asked for too much money.  and to the extent money was involved in their decision AT ALL, they made a bonehead move.

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Why when you have a difference of opinion why do you when the other person makes their point. I understand what you are saying, IF the Texans actually wanted Bush and settled for Mario Williams because of a few million, THEN that was foolish. However, you still have absolutely NO PROOF that was the case. They were talking to both of the players. Neither you nor I KNOW if they made offers to either players in the weeks leading up to the draft. They may have just been talking numbers with two players that they liked to see where each stood. You keep telling us what you THINK happened, but, none of us know what happened, and we probably never will.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Menudo

[Grits and Shins]

so you're saying when they went to bush offering him a contract, they weren't ACTUALLY offering him a contract?  what if he accepted their offer?  "uhh...never mind, we're actually picking someone else".

 

look, you guys can defend the choice of williams being a better choice as far as addressing the team's needs and all that all day long.  only time can tell who's right and who's wrong on that score. 

 

what i'm saying is, there's a whole lot of circumstantial evidence that seems to clearly tell us that, all else being equal ($$), the texans take bush.  HE'S the one they opened negotiations with a week before the draft, only to switch course when he asked for too much money.  and to the extent money was involved in their decision AT ALL, they made a bonehead move.

 

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You know they offered Bush a contract and he said no? What source do you have? Is there a link?

 

Is it possible that they were negotiating with Bush to strength their trade position with other teams (you know, give the appearance of wanting Bush) or that they were negotiating with Bush to strength their negotiating position with Williams (you know, tell Williams that they will be happy taking Bush if Mario can't come to terms)?

 

Where is this 'circumstantial evidence' that 'clearly tells us' that all else being equal the Texans take Bush? That's bullshucks. There may have been a lot of posturing by the Texans in an attempt to demonstrate that they were willing to take Bush in an attempt to strengthen their positions with other teams and with Mario Williams.

 

Baaaaaa ... baaaaaaa ... does the wool get hot in the summer?

[Big Score 1]

You know they offered Bush a contract and he said no?  What source do you have?  Is there a link?

 

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Of course the flip side is, do you know that they didn't offer Bush a contract? What sources do you have? Is there a link?

Is it possible that they were negotiating with Bush to strength their trade position with other teams (you know, give the appearance of wanting Bush) or that they were negotiating with Bush to strength their negotiating position with Williams (you know, tell Williams that they will be happy taking Bush if Mario can't come to terms)?

 

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The flip side here is, is it possible that they were negotiating with Bush & Williams

to strength their trade position with other teams (you know, give the appearance of wanting Bush & Williams

) or that they were negotiating with Williams to strength their negotiating position with Bush (you know, tell Bush that they will be happy taking Williams if Reggie can't come to terms)?

Where is this 'circumstantial evidence' that 'clearly tells us' that all else being equal the Texans take Bush?  That's bullshucks.  There may have been a lot of posturing by the Texans in an attempt to demonstrate that they were willing to take Bush in an attempt to strengthen their positions with other teams and with Mario Williams.

 

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Just flip the names again.

Baaaaaa ... baaaaaaa ... does the wool get hot in the summer?

 

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Isn't this more a question for spain?

[Azazello1313]

You know they offered Bush a contract and he said no?  What source do you have?  Is there a link?

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uhh, yeah, i just posted it.

 

One week before the NFL draft, the Texans intensified negotiations with running back Reggie Bush in an attempt to get the Heisman Trophy winner from Southern California signed in time to make him the first overall pick.

 

Vice president of football administration Dan Ferens, who handles negotiations, exchanged contract proposals with agent Joel Segal. There are expected to continue negotiations as the Texans try to sign Bush before the draft.

[Grits and Shins]

Of course the flip side is, do you know that they didn't offer Bush a contract? What sources do you have? Is there a link?

 

The flip side here is, is it possible that they were negotiating with Bush & Williams

to strength their trade position with other teams (you know, give the appearance of wanting Bush & Williams

) or that they were negotiating with Williams to strength their negotiating position with Bush (you know, tell Bush that they will be happy taking Williams if Reggie can't come to terms)?

 

Just flip the names again.

 

Isn't this more a question for spain?

 

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Nope I do not know if they did or did not offer Bush a contract.

I don't claim to have any knowledge one way or another, and have no sources.

It is certainly possible that they were negotiating with both in good faith or with Williams to strengthen their position with Bush.

 

I'm not the one claiming to know how the Texans were thinking. However, I do believe that if you look at it logically you can see they gained MUCH more by signing Williams than they would have by signing Bush. The projected improvement to the Texan defense with Williams is far and above any projected improvement in the offense with Bush. If your 12 ounce glass already has 11 ounces of water in it, it does you know good to add another 12 ounces or water to that glass ... the extra 11 ounces are spilled over the side and wasted.

 

I would like to see ONE logical argument from ANYBODY that offers a SHREAD of evidence that adding a RB of Bush's perceived value to a team that already has a RB of DDavis' proven value could in ANY way be better than adding a player of Mario Williams' perceived value to a woeful defense. You might get an extra ounce from Bush (or you might not) in your offensive glass of water ... but with Mario Williams the defense gets a full 12 ounces in their empty glass.

 

I'd like to believe that the GM of the Houston Texans is not a total idiot and can percieve the same thing.

 

In terms of fantasy football and using last year's stats:

 

Larry Fitzgerald scored 308.7 points

Chad Johnson scored 297.60

 

Shaun Alexander scored 371.30

Marshall Faulk scored 88.30

 

If you can only start one WR would you rather have Larry Fitzgerald + Chad Johnson + Marshall Faulk ... or would you be better off having Chad Johnson + Shaun Alexander?

 

So even if Reggie Bush is a better player than DDavis ... will any improvement in the Texan offense even come close to improving the Texans as a team as the addition of Mario Williams to the defense --- NO.

[Grits and Shins]

uhh, yeah, i just posted it. 

 

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They were in negotiations ... that means they were discussing terms ... no final offer was made. The exchange of proposals does not constitute a formal offer.

[Big Score 1]

Nope I do not know if they did or did not offer Bush a contract.

I don't claim to have any knowledge one way or another, and have no sources.

It is certainly possible that they were negotiating with both in good faith or with Williams to strengthen their position with Bush.

 

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And there ends your argument. Both Az & you are only speculating

[Azazello1313]

Nope I do not know if they did or did not offer Bush a contract.

I don't claim to have any knowledge one way or another, and have no sources.

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well no, you have lots of sources indicating they were exchanging proposals with bush, you're just choosing to ignore them.

 

They were in negotiations ... that means they were discussing terms ... no final offer was made.  The exchange of proposals does not constitute a formal offer.

 

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so now your argument rests on the distinction that a "proposal" is somehow materially different from an "offer"?

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Az, answer the following (sans "", please):

 

Plus, under your set of guidelines, can the best player in any given draft just ask for however much money he wants? What if he wants $40 million guaranteed, just because he believes in his own "star factor"? Should the team give it to him just because he's the best player available? I think not.

 

If Bush was asking for too much money, just because he thought he was THAT much more of a "star" than Alex Smith last year, should the Texans just cave into his demands because he happens to be a smidge higher on their board?

[Azazello1313]

Az, answer the following (sans "", please):

If Bush was asking for too much money, just because he thought he was THAT much more of a "star" than Alex Smith last year, should the Texans just cave into his demands because he happens to be a smidge higher on their board?

 

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[Azazello1313]

i'm saying the texans shouldn't have passed on bush over money. if they passed because they think mario is a better football player for their team, then hey, more power to 'em. but it seems to me like they passed in part because of money, and that seems pretty stupid and shortsighted to me.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

i'm saying the texans shouldn't have passed on bush over money.  if they passed because they think mario is a better football player for their team, then hey, more power to 'em.  but it seems to me like they passed in part because of money, and that seems pretty stupid and shortsighted to me.

 

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I understand that and I partially agree. However, money certainly has to play SOME part in the process -- especially if A) the player believes he's better than your scouts do and B ) if his contract demands reflect that.

 

Bush asked for too much money, mostly because he (like most others) didn't beleive they'd have the balls to pick somebody else. I don't blame the Texans for declining to overpay.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Swiss Cheezhead

[Swiss Cheezhead]

 

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[Big Score 1]

From Fox Sports Team Draft Grades

 

13. Houston: The Texans slipped based on ignoring Reggie Bush and taking North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, who was simply easier to sign. Williams would have been available later if they wanted to make a trade with someone. Still, Williams could be a star, but the best value choices might have been Alabama linebacker DeMeco Ryans, a total football guy, and Pitt offensive tackle Charles Spencer who retains the attitude of a defensive player. Wisconsin tight end Owen Daniels is a very good blocker. Grade: B-

[Azazello1313]

I understand that and I partially agree. However, money certainly has to play SOME part in the process...

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i'm not necessarily saying it shouldn't. i'm saying that to the extent money plays a role, in this particular case, the extra revenue in terms of ticket sales, jersey sales, etc. by adding the more marketable bush would have easily offset his additional salary demands. in other words, if they're going to let money be a driving factor, which i think they obviously did, they shoulda looked a little harder at the golden goose potential of picking bush before turning up their noses at his asking price.

[RuleBritannia]

i'm not necessarily saying it shouldn't.  i'm saying that to the extent money plays a role, in this particular case, the extra revenue in terms of ticket sales, jersey sales, etc. by adding the more marketable bush would have easily offset his additional salary demands.  in other words, if they're going to let money be a driving factor, which i think they obviously did, they shoulda looked a little harder at the golden goose potential of picking bush before turning up their noses at his asking price.

 

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Ummm... can you say "Salary Cap"?

[Ziachild007]

From Fox Sports Team Draft Grades

 

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Still just media opinion though.

[rhino]

From Fox Sports Team Draft Grades

 

13. Houston: The Texans slipped based on ignoring Reggie Bush and taking North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, who was simply easier to sign. Williams would have been available later if they wanted to make a trade with someone. Still, Williams could be a star, but the best value choices might have been Alabama linebacker DeMeco Ryans, a total football guy, and Pitt offensive tackle Charles Spencer who retains the attitude of a defensive player. Wisconsin tight end Owen Daniels is a very good blocker. Grade: B-

 

 

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Here, the media indicates that Mario Williams would've been available later if HOU wanted to make a trade with someone.

 

Hmmm.

 

1. Didn't the media also say that NOR would be taking Mario Williams with the 1.02 pick? Is this a case of the media contradicting the media?

 

2. If HOU couldn't trade out of the 1.01 pick with such a talent like Reggie Bush for the taking, then how realistic is it that they could make a trade to also get Mario Williams after using the 1.01 pick on Reggie Bush?

[rhino]

Have to agree with the Menudo and Grits-n-Shins on this topic.

 

1. IF it was true that Bush said f*ck you to the offer, and Williams said "yes sir" to the same offer, because that's what Az heard what happenned, then I would probably sign MWilliams as well, since we know that HOU had them ranked 1a and 1b.

 

2. I believe that Reggie Bush will have a bigger impact on the NFL than Mario Williams. But, I also believe that Mario Williams will have a bigger impact on HOU than Reggie Bush would have. It's a bigger need, a better fit.

 

3. Where would Reggie Bush be when HOU's defense can't get off the field?

 

HOU was 31st in league, giving up 364 yds / game.

 

4. Where would Reggie Bush be when HOU's defense has already given a 20-pt lead in the first half?

 

HOU was 32nd in league, giving up 26.9 pts / game.

 

5. Now I'm being silly, but how many sacks can Reggie Bush make?

 

There were 3 individuals that had more sacks than the top 2 HOU players combined. And with all that time on the field, HOU had plenty of opportunity.

 

6. Is the RB position the real problem at HOU?

 

HOU ranked 15th in rushing yds / game. Not strong, but consider that their #1 RB was only in there for 11 games. And, it wasn't 30th or 31st or 32nd. Now, consider what it could've been if HOU didn't have to give up on the rush to play catch up so much.

 

7. Is the RB position the real problem at HOU?

 

HOU ranked 9th (tied) in rushing avg -- 4.2 yds / carry.

 

8. After I got over my initial reaction to the Mario Williams pick, and looked at these numbers, I feel better with HOU's draft.

 

9. HOU did NOR a huge favor. One -- NOR gets media-hyped, endorsement-heavy, face-of-the-NFL-draft, Reggie Bush. Two, NOR gets Reggie Bush with a chip on his shoulder that he wasn't the 1.01 pick. How good is that?

 

10. CHI can afford to draft a RB (CBenson) in the first round of 2005's draft, have him hold out all pre-season for more money, and then add little to nothing to their rushing game for 2005. CHI has a defense. HOU does not. Until now.

 

I think this is one of HOU's better drafts, in its short history, which isn't saying much.

Edited May 2, 2006 by rhino

[muck]

So, if a horny guy was in a bar and there were two attractive women, both of whom were very horny and free for the entire evening ... and one of the women had been training hard for her job as a swimsuit model, and as such hadn't been going out much (and therefore had a low tolerance for alcahol) and the other woman was a regular at the bar ... wouldn't it make sense for the guy to simply ascertain which woman would would require fewer cocktails to get frisky and pursue her?