Why all the Lamont love?

[Chavez]

...and let me say that despite what Hugh may want to believe, I don't have a dog in this fight. Last year I was defending Jordan's potential; this year I still think he's a talented back but some of the trends from Shell's previous stint put up some red flags for me.

[Avernus]

...and let me say that despite what Hugh may want to believe, I don't have a dog in this fight. Last year I was defending Jordan's potential; this year I still think he's a talented back but some of the trends from Shell's previous stint put up some red flags for me.

 

 

I'm in the same boat...

 

I spent the whole off-season defending him like I have been for CTaylor this year...

 

and I felt better about Jordan last year than I do CTaylor this year as I at one point allowed Jordan to crack my top 10...something he struggles to do after a good performance....

[Chavez]

I'm in the same boat...

 

I spent the whole off-season defending him like I have been for CTaylor this year...

 

and I felt better about Jordan last year than I do CTaylor this year as I at one point allowed Jordan to crack my top 10...something he struggles to do after a good performance....

 

Not to derail, but for all the reasons out there to like Chester Taylor (and there are plenty, starting with Richardson and Hutchinson) something about him just leaves me overly cautious. Maybe it's the QB who used to back up Slingin' Sammy Baugh, maybe it's that I think Childress will suck as a HC, I don't know.

[Seahawks21]

You guys are missing the biggest factor in this whole entire debate.....Lamont Jordan simply isn't that talented. If the Raiders defense does well and Randy Moss becomes a big threat again, then Lamont, or any other junk RB, will do just fine. If they struggle, Lamont doesn't have the talent to produce numbers regardless. Brooks doesn't throw to his backs much, and the Raiders are going nowhere. Neither is Lamont.

[Hugh B Tool]

...and let me say that despite what Hugh may want to believe, I don't have a dog in this fight. Last year I was defending Jordan's potential; this year I still think he's a talented back but some of the trends from Shell's previous stint put up some red flags for me.

 

 

 

Just pulling your tail young gun Even though in my heart of hearts my Raiders win 4 games if we are lucky, I just don't see how Lamont can't be at least a top 10-12 RB. Shell's past tendencies from years way gone by or not

[Chavez]

You guys are missing the biggest factor in this whole entire debate.....Lamont Jordan simply isn't that talented. If the Raiders defense does well and Randy Moss becomes a big threat again, then Lamont, or any other junk RB, will do just fine. If they struggle, Lamont doesn't have the talent to produce numbers regardless.

 

Erm, so lessee - Lamont needs a solid defense and Moss to be a threat to produce.

 

So what do you call his 1600 total yds and double-digit tds last year when their defense was in the bottom 1/4 of the league and Moss was dinged up all year? Luck?

[Liverlips]

I would think in my vision, he looks like one of the bigger backs in the NFL. Shell will probably just pound it up the gut, like a true lineman would want. Not try and let Brooks win it. Who were some of the quarterbacks in Shell's old days of the Rbbc?

 

P.S. I truely like him best for his name, Lamont. Always think of Sanford and Son. Can't help it. "You big dummy!"

[Clubfoothead]

Actually, by those points in time, Dickerson and Craig were TREMENDOUS slouches. Part of Shell's problem IMO was that if you look, Marcus Allen was getting the same # of carries as Nick Bell and Steve Smith - now, Jackson was a tremendous talent and Dickerson and Craig, while being CLEARLY on their downside had been signed to be "The Man" but considering the level of production Allen had in KC, SOMEBODY was making a massive mistake.

 

I don't disagree but I'm wondering if that was the coach or the GM's fault. Somebody brought in Craig for one year and somebody brought in Dickerson for one year. I don't know my Raiders history well enough to say but if the GM brings those guys in the coach probably has to play them. Sounds like Emmitt going to Arizona. I'm not sure those are coaches' decisions.

 

My hesitancy is a combination of the fact that for whatever reason he never had a 300 carry RB PLUS the fact that his teams regularly finished no better than middle of the pack in rushing attempts, despite decent enough RB talent:

 

 

Were they slouches or decent enough talent? You've called them both.

 

When I look at Shell's tenure, personally, I'm not that concerned about how many attempts Jordan will get, as the one time Shell was in the situation to pound a single back, Harvey Williams was good enough. Shell never had great passing offense either. They were only in the top 20 in passing attempts twice under Shell. So while Shell doesn't appear to run that much, he still seems to prefer it to passing.

 

Based on the circumstances at the time, I'm not sure one can deduce that Shell doesn't want to run the ball but you might be able to deduce his team's aren't real good at it.

 

Either way, if Jordan gets the carries (I think he will), I think he will do well enough to be ranked right about where he is on thehuddle cheat sheet. The projections might be a little lofty but where he's ranked seems about right. Probably the biggest thing is how well the defense plays.

 

There are legit concers with Jordan this year, I don't disagree. Art Shell's philosophy isn't one but maybe his ability is.

 

Not sure if I just talked myself out of Jordan or not, now.

[Chavez]

Were they slouches or decent enough talent? You've called them both.

 

They WERE both - Jackson - phenomenal talent; Allen - still could be productive, proved so in KC; S Smith - good runner for a FB; Craig/Dickerson - shadows of former selves, probably slightly below average starters during their time with the Raiders; Nick Bell - ;

Based on the circumstances at the time, I'm not sure one can deduce that Shell doesn't want to run the ball but you might be able to deduce his team's aren't real good at it.

 

There are legit concers with Jordan this year, I don't disagree. Art Shell's philosophy isn't one but maybe his ability is.

 

Not sure if I just talked myself out of Jordan or not, now.

 

I know how you feel - it's why I'm so quick to lump him in with C Taylor - like the talent, don't trust the coaching. Though I think Jordan is more talented than Taylor.

[Clubfoothead]

I know how you feel - it's why I'm so quick to lump him in with C Taylor - like the talent, don't trust the coaching. Though I think Jordan is more talented than Taylor.

 

 

I don't like Chester Taylor either.

[chonchito]

Everyone looks at Jordan's overall stats, but his trend was definitely negative as the season went along. In his last seven games last season, lj2 scored a grand total of 2 tds, both in the same game against miami. He went over 100 yds rushing once, in the last game he played which was week 15. True he came close two other games, and had over 100 yards combined in four of the seven. Depending on your scoring rules, the value of those 100 yards combined will vary. In my MML, we get bonus points at 100 yds rushing/receiving so the combined 100 yds isn't as helpful. His avg. of 3.8 ypc is not exactly stellar either. And don't forget he did have turf toe which caused him to miss the last two games. Not sure how often that becomes a recurring problem. All in all, I think he's a very risky rb1, but a solid 2 w/limited upside imo.

[Big Score 1]

So what do you call his 1600 total yds and double-digit tds last year when their defense was in the bottom 1/4 of the league and Moss was dinged up all year? Luck?

 

Lamont had an average ypc of 3.8 for only 1025 yards on the ground, which is pretty bad for a starting RB.

The only thing that made his season respectable, were his receptions.

 

Before the season started last year, I double dog dare you to find one...and I mean only ONE prognosticator, that projected Jordan to lead the entire NFL in both targets (103) and receptions (70) for RB's.

 

Brian Westbrook...yeah, Tiki Barber...sure, LT2...maybe

But LaMont freakin' Jordan...NO WAY JOSE!

 

A lot of things had to align just so, for Jordan to have the incredible number of targets and receptions that he did.

 

The O'line had to suck - Check

 

Moss had to be dinged - Check

 

Jordan had to have a non mobile QB - Check

 

No go to TE like Gonzo, Gates, Crump or Shockley - Check

 

The QB needed to be comfortable dumping off to the RB - Check

 

So yes, I think there was a lot luck involved in the year Jordan had.

[Return Of S&B]

I hate to say this, but I do agree with Big Score 1 on this one....but for entirely different reasons than he had listed.

 

No, Jordan wont get the reception yards and catches he had last year....but not because of shear luck...it will have everything to do with the change in offensive coach/scheme in Oakland

 

Last year, Norv loved having Jordan, thought he was the perfect back for his scheme. Now whether he was the perfect back for his scheme is debatable. In Norv/Jimmy Raye's offense, Collins was told to dump the ball off to Jordan 1) when he didnt have time to wait for the receivers to run their 20 to 30 yard routes or 2) on 3rd and medium yardage. Sure Collins had experiencing dumping the ball off to Tiki back in NY but Jordan's receiving totals were all PLANNED by Norv and his offensive coordinate Jimmy Raye (who worked with Curtis Martin in the past)

 

This year, Shell brought back Tom Walsh from prehistoric times. Tom Walsh's approach to offense is very similar to Norv's but with one HUGE exception, in Walsh's offense the TIGHTEND is the primary dumpoff recipient when the 20 to 30 yard wide receiver routes do not have time to develop. In Walsh's offense the TIGHTENDs (Courtney Anderson, Randall Williams, Santiago...) will be getting most of not all the receptions Jordan received last year. IF you are not convinced of this go check out the stats from Sunday nights game against SanFrancisco. In that game the TIGHTENDS accounted for more than 120 yards while the running backs had minimal receptions and receiving yards.

 

In a reception league Jordan will not be as valuable as he was last year. I estimate that he will be a lot closer to 30 total receptions this year (versus 70). As for rushing yards, its anyones guess how he does, but I expect his rushing yardage and totals to pretty much match last years totals (1000+, 10+). Art/Walsh will emphasize the rush more than Norv/Raye did last year, but Jordan will be spelled a little bit more by the backup running backs (Fargas, Lee) this year under Art

[Big Score 1]

Jordan's receiving totals were all PLANNED by Norv and his offensive coordinate Jimmy Raye (who worked with Curtis Martin in the past)

I am highly skeptical that with Moss, Porter, Curry & Gabriel at WR along with Collins at QB (known for his strong arm), Norv & Raye "PLANNED" on targetting Jordan over 100 times in the passing game.

 

Way too many short dump offs to Jordan, on 3rd & long. NOT the way any Head Coach or OC expects to convert many 1st downs.

[Return Of S&B]

I am highly skeptical that with Moss, Porter, Curry & Gabriel at WR along with Collins at QB (known for his strong arm), Norv & Raye "PLANNED" on targetting Jordan over 100 times in the passing game.

 

Way too many short dump offs to Jordan, on 3rd & long. NOT the way any Head Coach or OC expects to convert many 1st downs.

 

 

This is the way Norv/Raye approached the play-calling last year...this is why so many Raider fans wanted Norv/Raye out of Oakland by week 10 last year. If you watched every Raider game last year, like i did, you would have witnessed all the poor play calling in person and realize why Norv/Raye was hated so much in Oakland.

 

In my opinion, Collins received way too much blame last year...it was the piss poor play calling that did the Raiders in by week 9 (they were 3-4 at one point in the season and Norv/Raye's ultra conservative approach killed whatever momentum the Raiders had last year after beating the Skins in Washington). They were so worried about Collins throwing interceptions they instructed him to dump it off to Jordan whenever things werent materializing in terms of pass protections and receivers getting open. Calling draw plays when it was 3rd and 14 and dumping off to Jordan every third play even when the defense knew it was coming was completely Norv/Raye.

[Big Score 1]

They were so worried about Collins throwing interceptions they instructed him to dump it off to Jordan whenever things werent materializing in terms of pass protections and receivers getting open.

That is not a designed play. That is a safety outlet for Collins.

 

This goes back to Moss being dinged, the O'line sucking, no go to TE, Collins being very comfortable with dumping the ball off to the RB & Collins lack of mobility.

 

Of course I could well be wrong, but again, I would be highly skeptical that Norv & his OC went into last season "PLANNING" on throwing to their RB over 100 times.

[DKF]

Cool name

 

 

When he was on Sanford & Son, I always thought it was a stupid name.

[Return Of S&B]

That is not a designed play. That is a safety outlet for Collins.

 

This goes back to Moss being dinged, the O'line sucking, no go to TE, Collins being very comfortable with dumping the ball off to the RB & Collins lack of mobility.

 

Of course I could well be wrong, but again, I would be highly skeptical that Norv & his OC went into last season "PLANNING" on throwing to their RB over 100 times.

 

Big Score 1, they were dumping the ball off to the RBs in PRESEASON last year....way before Moss got dinged.

 

Norv had used his backs in a similar fashion when he was OC for Miami (Ricky Williams) and San Diego (Tomlinson) so yes Norv PLANNED to use his primary RB in a similar fashion.

 

Now with the same exact RBs, "no go to" TEs and "sucking" OL as last year the Raiders gained over 150 yards of receiving from their TIGHTENDs Sunday night against San Francisco while their RBs received minimal yards.

 

If this evidence isnt obvious enough for you that an offensive scheme changes everything I dont know what is...

Edited August 22, 2006 by Return Of S&B

[Big Score 1]

Big Score 1, they were dumping the ball off to the RBs in PRESEASON last year....way before Moss got dinged.

 

Norv had used his backs in a similar fashion when he was OC for Miami (Ricky Williams) and San Diego (Tomlinson) so yes Norv PLANNED to use his primary RB in a similar fashion.

 

Now with the same exact RBs, "no go to" TEs and "sucking" OL as last year the Raiders gained over 150 yards of receiving from their TIGHTENDs Sunday night against San Francisco while their RBs received minimal yards.

 

If this evidence isnt obvious enough for you that an offensive scheme changes everything I dont know what is...

 

You make some solid points there S&B. Like I said, I could well be wrong.

[Big Score 1]

You know what S&B?

 

I think you nailed there being a definite shift in offensive philosphy. I went through the "Play by Play" of the Raiders pre season games so far and Jordan has only been thrown to once, while the TE's have seen several targets. (BTW Jordan did catch that one pass, howver it was nullified by penalty)

 

Seems Norv was more in favor of keeping the TE's in to block and releasing his RB for the short passes while Shell & the Bed & Breakfast guy, look to be favoring the opposite.

 

Now when the second string offense is in, with Walter at QB & Fargas at RB, there are passes to the RB.

 

Not sure I completely understand why there's a difference in roles between the 1st & 2nd string offenses though.

[Return Of S&B]

I think they are trying to work Fargas into the 3rd down back role...personally I dont think Fargas is that effective but they may be checking their options. Fargas has problems running through the tackles but he has great speed for outside runs so maybe they want to keep the option to make the occasional dump-off to Fargas in 3rd and long situations.

 

I still believe the QBs are told to look to the WRs, TEs, and then RBs as their natural progression though. I beleive the new offense has been bothering both QBs until the game against SF, both Brooks and Walter were used to dumping to the ball off to the RB when under pressure (Brooks in NO, and Walter under Norv). Now they are being forced to look for the TEs if the WRs arent open fast enough, because the RBs are being told to block on most pass plays. The SF game was the first game where both QBs looked comfortable with their options though.

[Big Score 1]

Good info S&B. Thanx

[LooGie]

I'm way high on LaMont. He's a stud runner, and good for 80 catches a season (give or take). If he's healthy, he'll be a top 5 producer I believe.

 

Just mah .02

[giantsfan]

1. I truly think Lamont will be THE man this year. I see no way this is a RBBC if he's healthy. Who else gets carries Fargas or Crockett? Shell isn't stupid LJ will get the ball the vast majority of the time.

2. His catches will go way down. Maybe into the 40's at best. Brooks just won't dump it off like Collins did.

 

To me LJ is solid but not great. I won't take him at 8 in a .5 pts per catch league instead going for Edge, Brown, and Caddy in that order, but coming back at 13 I surely would if he's there. He's a nice late 1st very early 2nd round pick IMO.

 

Edit to add LJ and Edge may be the two most underrated backs going into this season. No one likes these guys for the most part.

Edited August 25, 2006 by giantsfan

[LooGie]

Edit to add LJ and Edge may be the two most underrated backs going into this season. No one likes these guys for the most part.

 

I think LT2 is the most underrated of the elite...he's got a new QB..i'm predicting ALOT of dump offs, and running plays...I predict him to have have the rushing title...