alchico Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 we had a 3 way tie for the wildcard spot in our league. We have nothing that directly addresses a 3 way tie, other than if 1 of the 3 beat the other 2 heads up. Our normal tiebreakers are: 1. Head to Head 2. Total points 3. division record Team A split 2 games with team C but lost to B - A wins total points tiebreaker with C Team B beat team A but lost to C Team C beat team B but split 2 games with A - again A wins total points tiebreaker with C Since HTH doesn't break the tie does it go to the second tiebreaker for everybody??? (BTW team B is highest scoring team of the three by .3) commish came up with a theory that team A wins the wildcard any help would be appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 we had a 3 way tie for the wildcard spot in our league. We have nothing that directly addresses a 3 way tie, other than if 1 of the 3 beat the other 2 heads up. Our normal tiebreakers are: 1. Head to Head 2. Total points 3. division record Team A split 2 games with team C but lost to B - A wins total points tiebreaker with C Team B beat team A but lost to C Team C beat team B but split 2 games with A - again A wins total points tiebreaker with C Since HTH doesn't break the tie does it go to the second tiebreaker for everybody??? (BTW team B is highest scoring team of the three by .3) commish came up with a theory that team A wins the wildcard any help would be appreciated I've done this before and I didn't have a rule to cover it either. I went to second tiebreaker when we had a 5-way tie and wrote a rule for the following year that H2H would only count in the event of a 2-way tie. In your case, I don't believe you can split them at all as each has beaten the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 What is their cumulative HTH vs each other ... i.e., what is A's record against both B and C ... etc? That may obviously crown one guy the winner ... however, if they are all 3-3 (or whatever), then go to the next level ... Which is total points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) It looks like: A = 1-2 in HTH B = 1-1 in HTH C = 2-1 in HTH ...Team C goes to the playoffs as 2-1 is a better record than either of the other two... Edited December 12, 2006 by muck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 It looks like: A = 1-2 in HTH B = 1-1 in HTH C = 2-1 in HTH ...Team C goes to the playoffs as 2-1 is a better record than either of the other two... I don't think you can do it that way. A beat C. I'd definitely scrap it and go to points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I don't think you can do it that way. A beat C. I'd definitely scrap it and go to points. So what? C beat A, too. C has the best HTH record, and if that's their first tie breaker, the C has the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 considering win percentage between all tying teams: A = .333 B = .500 C = .667 Looks like C to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Unless the rules specifically state that one team must have 100% H2H dominance over the other teams in the tie ... team C has the superior H2H percentage amongst tied teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Misfit Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Head-to-head cannot apply to a three-way tie. That's a mathematical impossibility. Look at it another way: Say you had four teams tie, and they all came from the same division. If you try to apply head-to-head logic, what you are saying is that the team with the best divisional record gets the tiebreaker. If that were the intent of the rules, the rules would say that. Now, say only two of those teams tie -- would the team with the best divisional record get the tiebreaker? Nope, not necessarily. You get two different outcomes from the same tiebreaker because h-to-h among three teams is impossible. The next tiebreaker -- points -- decides the matter, simply because the first tiebreaker is inapplicable to a three-way tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Head-to-head cannot apply to a three-way tie. That's a mathematical impossibility. Mathematically impossible? A = 1-2 in HTH, or a winning percentage of .333 B = 1-1 in HTH, or a winning percentage of .500 C = 2-1 in HTH, or a winning percentage of .667 The MATH says that Team C has the best H2H percentage and advances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Pilgrim Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Our league uses a H2H tiebreaker first, then total points 2nd. If H2H is first tiebreaker, then Team C has a 2-1 record in H2H competition. So Team C goes to the playoffs. This happens many years in our league, nuttin' special here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Unless the rules specifically state that one team must have 100% H2H dominance over the other teams in the tie ... team C has the superior H2H percentage amongst tied teams. Should Team B be penalized for only playing 2 games H2H whereas the other 2 teams played 3? Just a thought. I myself would go to the 2nd tiebreaker - total points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Pilgrim Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I'm not sure what you mean by penalized??? Team B could have won both games and had a H2H record of 2-0. And then Team B would have won the tiebreaker. But Team B didn't win the H2H contests and his record is 1-1. That is what causes Team B's downfall. Which is what a H2H tiebreaker is all about. Granted, a lopsided schedule can present problems, but I don't see one in this instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Should Team B be penalized for only playing 2 games H2H whereas the other 2 teams played 3? Just a thought. I myself would go to the 2nd tiebreaker - total points. I agree with that. Seems unfair to put Team C past Team B given that Team B had less H2H opportunities within the group. It's unfortunate obviously that your rules don't speak to this - in my league, H2H can only be used to advance a team that beat everyone else in the tiebreaker, or to eliminate a team that lost to everyone else in the tiebreaker. If neither applies, you go to the next tiebreaker, which is total points. Under this system, team B gets the nod. But since your rules don't specificially stipulate that, you're in a tough spot. One possible solution is to apply the H2H tiebreaker in the same manner that the NFL would do it - I'm not sure what that is, but I'm gonna' look it up right now and post back. We have a default rule in our league that unanticipated tiebreaking situations get resolved by following NFL procedures to the extent possible, it's not a bad catch-all sorta' rule to deal with situations just like this one. In any event, I'm very curious to see how the commissioner concluded that team A advances - that seems the most unlikely outcome. Please tell us that Team A is not his team. One more question - are any of these teams in the same division? I only ask because that would be very relevant under NFL tiebreaking procedures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Should Team B be penalized for only playing 2 games H2H whereas the other 2 teams played 3? Just a thought. I myself would go to the 2nd tiebreaker - total points. The rules do not address if teams don't have the same number of games ... the rules say H2H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) Interesting - per NFL rules, in breaking ties for a division title, the first tiebreaker is: "Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs)." In breaking ties for a wildcard, however, the first tiebreaker is: "Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)" One more note - in breaking ties for a wildcard, if two or more of the teams are from the same division, divisional tiebreakers would be used among those teams to eliminate all but 1, and than that team would advance to another tiebreaker against team(s) from other divisions with the same win/loss record. NFL tiebreaking rules can be found here. EDIT - given that Teams A and C played each other twice, I'm gonna' assume that they are in the same division. So the NFL procedure would be to have those two square off in a tiebreaker first - Team A prevails by virtue of more total points, since they split head-to-head. Team A would then advance to an additional tiebreaker with team B, where Team B would prevail by virtue of having beaten team A H2H. My vote is for Team B. Edited December 12, 2006 by Easy n Dirty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I agree with that. Seems unfair to put Team C past Team B given that Team B had less H2H opportunities within the group. It's unfortunate obviously that your rules don't speak to this - in my league, H2H can only be used to advance a team that beat everyone else in the tiebreaker, or to eliminate a team that lost to everyone else in the tiebreaker. If neither applies, you go to the next tiebreaker, which is total points. Under this system, team B gets the nod. But since your rules don't specificially stipulate that, you're in a tough spot. One possible solution is to apply the H2H tiebreaker in the same manner that the NFL would do it - I'm not sure what that is, but I'm gonna' look it up right now and post back. We have a default rule in our league that unanticipated tiebreaking situations get resolved by following NFL procedures to the extent possible, it's not a bad catch-all sorta' rule to deal with situations just like this one. In any event, I'm very curious to see how the commissioner concluded that team A advances - that seems the most unlikely outcome. Please tell us that Team A is not his team. One more question - are any of these teams in the same division? I only ask because that would be very relevant under NFL tiebreaking procedures. Also agree, H2H doesn't seem to work, I would consider going to the the next tiebreaker or seek NFL procedures to deal with the situation. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 The rules do not address if teams don't have the same number of games ... the rules say H2H. True - but it sounds like the rules do not stipulate how H2H is to be applied, and as you can see from my posts above that is not a clear cut answer by any stretch. You and others have chosen to interpret the H2H tiebreaker as meaning best winning percentage in H2H games, but I don't think that's correct in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysrocking Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Also agree, H2H doesn't seem to work, I would consider going to the the next tiebreaker or seek NFL procedures to deal with the situation. good luck! I always say when in doubt go to total points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 True - but it sounds like the rules do not stipulate how H2H is to be applied, and as you can see from my posts above that is not a clear cut answer by any stretch. You and others have chosen to interpret the H2H tiebreaker as meaning best winning percentage in H2H games, but I don't think that's correct in this situation. It seems to me unless the rules specify that a clear 100% advantage must be had by one team that it must be H2H percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 It seems to me unless the rules specify that a clear 100% advantage must be had by one team that it must be H2H percentage. Why? NFL rules in a wildcard situation stipulate otherwise, why would H2H percentage be the default here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Is this that difficult to understand? The rules say the first triebreaker is H2H. Team C has the best 3-way H2H record. Team C gets the wildcard spot. End of story. No other discussion is relevant. @ H2H records being mathematically impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) Should Team B be penalized for only playing 2 games H2H whereas the other 2 teams played 3? Just a thought. Team B isn't being penalized. If they wanted the playoff spot, they should have swept Team A & Team C. They didn't. Team C gets the spot by rule. Edited December 12, 2006 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Team B isn't being penalized. If they wanted the playoff spot, they should have swept Team A & Team C. They didn't. Team C gets the spot by rule. Same question for you as for Blitz - why do you automatically interpret a H2H tiebreaker to mean best winning percentage in H2H games? There's clearly support in the NFL rulebook to interpret it as requiring a clean sweep, especially as it relates to tiebreakers between teams not in the same division. Supposing Team A swept Team C, but due to a scheduling quirk, Team B never played either of Team A or Team C - would you advance Team A in that situation? The more and more I think about this one, I becme more and more convinced that when breaking ties between teams not in the same division, the H2H tiebreaker can only apply in instances of a clean sweep. And to characterize this as a simple problem, where "no other discussion is relevant" and "Team C advances by rule" is pretty foolish IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I am in quite a few leagues and we seem to have a different set up rules for this in every won. Cumulative H2H Total Points Divisional Records Points Against Take your pick, put it in your rules for next season. As of now, you should use the H2H as your rules state as being the first tie breaker. Although it doesn't specifically state 3+ teams, it doesn't discount that scenario either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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