Dumbing-Down of America

[BeeR]

If you go with a voucher system, the poor people would very likely be getting screwed a whole lot less than they are now.

 

That may be. Mixed feelings on the voucher thing.

[Yukon Cornelius]

In Texas they make more than an electrical engineer for the number of days they work. An electrical engineer has some large responsibilities. If they screw up your building catches on fire and people die.

 

then electrical engineers should move here they make more than teachers...

[BeeR]

if you think teacher only work 9 months at 40 hours a week you have no street cred .. its that simple

 

It varies. Again I know and/or have discussed this at length with more than a few teachers...I would say they have "street cred."

 

Sure teachers would like to be making more and I don't have a problem agreeing that, given the importance of their job, they should....but the orig point was they are GROSSLY underpaid, at which point I threw up the BS flag. The money isn't so horrible. Agree to disagree I guess.

[Azazello1313]

If you go with a voucher system, the poor people would very likely be getting screwed a whole lot less than they are now.

 

 

i think that is correct, which is why minorities are often the most vigorous supporters of school vouchers. it would FINALLY give them some power over their kids' education.

 

i definitely see the downside to vouchers as well. schools will be a lot more stratified and specialized, and i am a big believer in the idea that kids lose a lot when they are exposed to less. but the public school system is so incredibly f'ed up, i really think at this point in time it NEEDS something like vouchers to change the way our kids are educated in a positive way. i have no faith whatsoever in the current governmental education bureaucracy to bring about better ways of teaching our kids.

[Pope Flick]

In Texas they make more than an electrical engineer for the number of days they work. An electrical engineer has some large responsibilities. If they screw up your building catches on fire and people die.

 

'

 

 

Ok. So what? That doesn't change my mind. Not in the slightest.

 

In fact, let me add this: you increase the quality of education starting in grade schools and by the time those kids get into their EE programs they are going to become even BETTER EE's than we have now, so fewer people will die even if they don't make as much as their 9th grade algebra teacher. Smarter people will make better engineers.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Pope Flick

[BeeR]

I think the decline of the public school system started with the liberal agenda that came out of the 1960's. First, they decided to end nieghborhood schools, where pride in your school, your area, your teams, was very important. They tossed all of that aside in favor of the liberal notion that we needed to bus kids to areas far from their homee to conquer societal ills. I was one of the unfortunate victims of this misguided liberal idea. I am pretty sure that everyone will agree that bussing was an umittigated disaster. It was just another failed liberal social policy that ended up doing ALOT more harm than good. Everyone's academic achievement suffered as a result of this fiasco. And white flight, along with the explosion in the number of private schools, as a result of busing, has decimated school systems in big cities across the country. When we get away from educating children and start trying to achieve other goals such as correcting social problems, thats when education went downhill.

 

Couple that with several other failed liberal social policies that have been shoved down the school systems throats and we are left with a failing school system. Social promotion. Diversity. Not wanting to hurt a childs "self esteem". Affirmative action. No Child Left Behind. All of these ideas have had a deliterious affect on our schools, because they are always given priority over what the mission should be: Educate the f'n kids! But no! Social agendas must come first while our children suffer the consequences. Throw in the Unions who dont care nearly as much about educating kids as they do about protecting their own, good or bad, and we have a recipe for disaster. Is anyone really surprised that when education of the children is given such a low priority, just so social policy can be made the ultimate goal, that we get exactly what we asked for?

 

Also very well said. Of course most liberals probably rather kiss Rush Limbaugh on the lips before admitting any of that, but....

 

PS that's not to say all liberals/liberal ideas are bad. duh. But in this respect, IMO absolutely.

[bushwacked]

PS that's not to say all liberals/liberal ideas are bad. duh. But in this respect, IMO absolutely.

 

 

Nothing is as bad as a lying welcher.

[spain]

Also very well said. Of course most liberals probably rather kiss Rush Limbaugh on the lips before admitting any of that, but....

 

He11 no they wont admit it. Skins and his ilk still thinks bussing was a great idea! The liberals continue to fiddle as Rome burns...

[spain]

Nothing is as bad as a lying welcher.

 

Ok. what did I miss?

[Ursa Majoris]

187 days is the number of days. I really don't know how many hours per day they work. My wife has to be at work by 8:00am and is rarely there after 4:00pm, and only had to bring home work during the end of six weeks grading period. My wife changed jobs now and is a department head and doesn't actually teach in the classroom this year, but does work part of the day in the star lab (remedial lab for special ed students). Prior to this year she had a 30 minute lunch and 1 1/2 hours of conference where she was only required to be available for one day out of 5 unless she actually had a conference scheduled. I'm sure some work more than others, but I doubt few work more than 8 hours a day unless they are involved in after school activities or athletics in which case I'm sure they get a stipend. Now I'll be the first to admit that stipends are a joke, but these activities are activities the teachers choose to volunteer for such as sponsoring a class or the student senate.

 

Like I said earlier I'm not saying teachers are over paid, I'm just trying to dispel the myth that they are underpaid.

 

Your fundamental problem here, Perch, is that, unlike your earlier post, you are completely wrong. You are failing to count prep time, marking papers time. I do some slight volunteer committee work for my local HS and I can guarantee you the teachers there work not less than 50 hours a week when school is in session, plus they spend their own money to help fund many activities and facilities, including basic classroom needs. Pump that back into your formula and you'll be closer to the mark.

 

Also, who else's job involves trying to teach 30+ people at a time, many of whom are bent on nothing more than disruption?

[TimC]

No parent wants to admit their little Cindy or Jimmy is dumb...or ugly. I blame the parents. Everyone can't be smart and good looking. If I had a nickel everytime some parent shoved their ugly baby picture in my face and said their kid wasn't the one humping the couch, I wouldn't need the lottery.

 

What really ticks me off are the parents that put the little pink bandana on the bald kid's head to hide the fact the kid has no hair. Sure, it works for Skins...

Edited March 7, 2007 by TimC

[Ursa Majoris]

No parent wants to admit their little Cindy or Jimmy is dumb...or ugly. I blame the parents. Everyone can't be smart and good looking. If I had a nickel everytime some parent shoved their ugly baby picture in my face and said their kid wasn't the one humping the couch, I wouldn't need the lottery.

 

On a more serious note, if kids don't go to college straight out of HS, so what? Don't we need tradesmen any more? Electricians, carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, crane operators, bricklayers, drywall guys, garbage guys, are all these redundant somehow?

 

Not only that, none of the above can be outsourced, unlike the degree-laden guy in the IT Department.

[TimC]

On a more serious note, if kids don't go to college straight out of HS, so what? Don't we need tradesmen any more? Electricians, carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, crane operators, bricklayers, drywall guys, garbage guys, are all these redundant somehow?

 

Not only that, none of the above can be outsourced, unlike the degree-laden guy in the IT Department.

 

 

Exactly...and every kid expects to be President of the company making millions by 23 nowadays and are disappointed when they aren't (as I imagine the parents are). We call them "temps" where I work.

[yo mama]

If you go with a voucher system, the poor people would very likely be getting screwed a whole lot less than they are now.

 

I don't know as much about vouchers as I should. However, I like what some of public elementary schools are doing in my area: they segregate children into classrooms based on which kids have parents that comply with the voluntary "parent participation" requirements, and those that don't. The requirements are basicallly a number of hours per school year the parent contributes, both inside the class room and for the school in general. Many private schools have something similiar, and parents who comply usually get a break on tuition.

 

Not surprisingly, the "parent participation" class rooms kick ass. Personally, I love the idea. If other parents don't want to be involved in their own kid's education, fine. That's their business. It ain't about rich or poor, cultural diversity, or any of that. I just want my kid surrounded by other kids who are there to learn; kids who come from families that place an emphasis on education.

[BeeR]

On a more serious note, if kids don't go to college straight out of HS, so what? Don't we need tradesmen any more? Electricians, carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, crane operators, bricklayers, drywall guys, garbage guys, are all these redundant somehow?

 

Bingo. And many of those make nice salaries too.

[Perchoutofwater]

Your fundamental problem here, Perch, is that, unlike your earlier post, you are completely wrong. You are failing to count prep time, marking papers time. I do some slight volunteer committee work for my local HS and I can guarantee you the teachers there work not less than 50 hours a week when school is in session, plus they spend their own money to help fund many activities and facilities, including basic classroom needs. Pump that back into your formula and you'll be closer to the mark.

 

Also, who else's job involves trying to teach 30+ people at a time, many of whom are bent on nothing more than disruption?

 

 

Last year when my wife was a classroom teacher instead of a department head, she rarely had to work any overtime what so ever. The only time that she had to was at the end of a six weeks, when six week grades were due. Now sure some teacher because of the subjects they teach will have to work longer than others. It will take an English teacher longer to grade a written report than it will for a math teacher to grade some homework. On the whole though most teachers that I know don't work much if any over 40 hours a week, and most do their prep and grading during their conference period, because parents rarely if ever request parent teacher conferences. Most of those working the long hours are English teachers and those involved in extra cirricular activities which they choose to be a part of. Being that my wife is a teacher, my mother was a teacher, and about 5 of our closest friends are teachers, I can attest to this with almost absolute certainty.

 

Again, I'm not saying teachers are over paid, I'm just arguing that when you take into consideration the amount of time they have off they are not under paid. Yes teachers are important to our society, but so is nearly every other trade. If it weren't for plumbers and garbage men, we'd all be suffering from disease. If it weren't for engineers, our homes and the building we work in would either fall down or burn down. Some make it sound like a teacher is the most important profession in the world. If you feel that way then you should really be trying to get rid of all the bad ones. If I thought raise would go to only those that merit a raise, then I might be for throwing more money at them, but not under the current system.

[Perchoutofwater]

then electrical engineers should move here they make more than teachers...

 

 

The cost of living is pretty low in Texas, particularly if you don't live in Dallas, Houston, Austin or San Antonio.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Last year when my wife was a classroom teacher instead of a department head, she rarely had to work any overtime what so ever. The only time that she had to was at the end of a six weeks, when six week grades were due. Now sure some teacher because of the subjects they teach will have to work longer than others. It will take an English teacher longer to grade a written report than it will for a math teacher to grade some homework. On the whole though most teachers that I know don't work much if any over 40 hours a week, and most do their prep and grading during their conference period, because parents rarely if ever request parent teacher conferences. Most of those working the long hours are English teachers and those involved in extra cirricular activities which they choose to be a part of. Being that my wife is a teacher, my mother was a teacher, and about 5 of our closest friends are teachers, I can attest to this with almost absolute certainty.

 

Again, I'm not saying teachers are over paid, I'm just arguing that when you take into consideration the amount of time they have off they are not under paid. Yes teachers are important to our society, but so is nearly every other trade. If it weren't for plumbers and garbage men, we'd all be suffering from disease. If it weren't for engineers, our homes and the building we work in would either fall down or burn down. Some make it sound like a teacher is the most important profession in the world. If you feel that way then you should really be trying to get rid of all the bad ones. If I thought raise would go to only those that merit a raise, then I might be for throwing more money at them, but not under the current system.

 

hmmm how do these trades people learn what to do??? are the born with an innate ability to wire a house, sling burgers or sell used cars??

[Bill Swerski]

I do understand that, but a big problem is that these kids aren't learning because there are unqualified people out there trying to teach them. They're protected by these unions from being replaced. Blow it up! The good one will stay and those not qualified need to find work elsewhere because they're not qualified.

 

 

That's part of the problem. But the greater problem is that too many children these days are lazy, undisciplined, and don't try in school. And that's the fault of the parents, not the teachers.

[Perchoutofwater]

hmmm how do these trades people learn what to do??? are the born with an innate ability to wire a house, sling burgers or sell used cars??

 

 

Most learn more the first 6 months on the job than they do during their entire school education. Sure most learn basics in school, but that is not the case of all of them. Both of my children could read a full two years before they started teaching it to them in school, thanks to the work me and the missus put in with them. Don't get me wrong, school is important, teachers are important, but lets not blow it out of proportion.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Most learn more the first 6 months on the job than they do during their entire school education. Sure most learn basics in school, but that is not the case of all of them. Both of my children could read a full two years before they started teaching it to them in school, thanks to the work me and the missus put in with them. Don't get me wrong, school is important, teachers are important, but lets not blow it out of proportion.

 

never mind

[H8tank]

And that's the fault of the parents, not the teachers.

 

Then why should my tax dollars be wasted to teach your ignorant bastards?

[yo mama]

Then why should my tax dollars be wasted to teach your ignorant bastards?

 

They shouldn't. Tell you what: you pay for this stupid war out of your own pocket, I'll pay to educate my kids out of mine. Deal?

 

Didn't think so.

[Azazello1313]

I don't know as much about vouchers as I should. However, I like what some of public elementary schools are doing in my area: they segregate children into classrooms based on which kids have parents that comply with the voluntary "parent participation" requirements, and those that don't. The requirements are basicallly a number of hours per school year the parent contributes, both inside the class room and for the school in general. Many private schools have something similiar, and parents who comply usually get a break on tuition.

 

Not surprisingly, the "parent participation" class rooms kick ass. Personally, I love the idea. If other parents don't want to be involved in their own kid's education, fine. That's their business. It ain't about rich or poor, cultural diversity, or any of that. I just want my kid surrounded by other kids who are there to learn; kids who come from families that place an emphasis on education.

 

 

sounds like you're very much in favor of the "voucher effect".

[chiefjay]

hmmm how do these trades people learn what to do??? are the born with an innate ability to wire a house, sling burgers or sell used cars??

 

 

OTJT