Randy Moss

[kingfish247]

come on over to my house. I have plenty of tape of Harrison over the middle.

 

Thanks but no thanks. Feel free to post them though. If I'm wrong then surely the times Harrison spends "inside the numbers" will outnumber the times spent outside.

wrong wrong wrong. they've helped make each other. Marvin's routes are impeccable. He has great speed and hands. The one handed toe-tap in New England for a TD last year may be the best catch in NFL history.

 

That's fine but even a casual observer will wonder how Harrison's career would've transpired playing with Moss' QBs as opposed to playing with the QB that will likely end his career leading every major statistical category for the position. Manning made a 1000yd receiver out of Brandon Stokley. Harrison helps but damn Manning helps more imo.

Why exactly is it unfair to compare their worst seasons? They were on really bad teams, with very below average quarterbacks with bad offensive lines. Yet Harrison still produced. Moss didn't.

 

Moss did not produce? You can argue all you want about who's better or who's a HOFer but the stats are stats. In their 3 worst years, Moss had ~150 less yards but had 3 more TDs so at the very least it's a wash. Moss however did it on abysmal offensive teams fielding, at the very least, zero future HOFers.

Moss was putting up similiar numbers with Culpepper, and somehow found a way to be a malcontent.

 

Moss was never a malcontent with the Vikes. He loved the Vikings and their fans. The owners, GM, and 2 teammates gave up on Randy Moss... LINK If you're not familiar, Sid Hartman is probably more connected than Peter King and has been entrenched in Minnesota sports for decades. He's been writing since around WWII.

You conveniently left out the number of receptions. 196 for Harrison, in his worst 3 years (which came at the beginning of his career, as you would expect, in comparison to Moss' which have come in years 7-9). 151 receptions for Moss. Plus your math is off. 2478 yards for Harrison in his worst 3 years, 2325 for Moss. Convenient to leave out 50+ yards for Harrison. By the way, Moss has put up 1500 or more yards exactly ONCE in his entire career, and that was 4 years ago. Not sure why you think he will do it two years in a row all of a sudden.

 

Where to begin:

-You're going to point out my math??? If I remember correctly I included "~" to indicate approximately b/c I didn't exactly pull out my calculator. Anyways, Moss had 153 less yards in his 3 worst years than Harrison in his 3 worst years. You conveniently left out Moss' TDs so again Moss had 3 more TDs so it's at the very least a wash.

-Ok Harrison had more receptions. Advantage Harrison on receptions. However the fact that Moss fell only 153 yds short on 45 less receptions is advantage Moss. If Moss had equaled Harrison's receptions in his 3 worst years, based on Moss' career Y/R avg that would've been an extra 690 total yards. Moss' career Y/R is better than Rice, Brown, Carter, Harrison, Reed, TO, and Shannon Sharpe.

-Moss' career season avg is 1188yds. Harrison's is 1245yds. However excluding their 3 worst seasons... Harrison's is 1402 per year. Moss, 1395 per year. He wouldn't close the entire gap in 2 good seasons but he'd come pretty damn close.

 

Harrison's worst years came early in his career. Ok, he gets a pass on that. WRs tend to need time to adjust. Moss only had the most prolific start to a career for a WR, ever. So advantage Moss.

 

Moss' 3 worst years (7-9) came with nagging injuries causing him to miss games in 04. In 05 he continued to have nagging injuries but still managed to play 16 games, totaled 1000+yds/8 TDs. Moss QBs for those bad years... Culpepper (currently a backup, trying to catch onto another team to compete for a starting spot), Collins (backup), Andrew Walter (55.8 QB rating), and Aaron Brooks (61.7 QB rating).

 

Then again he probably just should've hustled more and ran some better shallow cross routes then those teams would've been 34-14 instead of the opposite and his QBs would've put up Manning type numbers.

[Bill Swerski]

Thanks but no thanks. Feel free to post them though. If I'm wrong then surely the times Harrison spends "inside the numbers" will outnumber the times spent outside.

 

That's fine but even a casual observer will wonder how Harrison's career would've transpired playing with Moss' QBs as opposed to playing with the QB that will likely end his career leading every major statistical category for the position. Manning made a 1000yd receiver out of Brandon Stokley. Harrison helps but damn Manning helps more imo.

 

I love how this standard applies to Marvin, but people conveniently ignore the fact that Moss had a HOF WR lined up opposite him for the first five years of his career.

[CaptainHook]

Thanks but no thanks. Feel free to post them though. If I'm wrong then surely the times Harrison spends "inside the numbers" will outnumber the times spent outside.

 

 

talk about backtracking! You said that you "defy" someone to post links of Harrison over the middle. I posted several in a clip in Post #58. There ya go! Oh, and you are really going out on a limb saying that Harrison spends more time outside the numbers than inside. He is a wide receiver. But he does go over the middle regularly.

 

Moss did not produce? You can argue all you want about who's better or who's a HOFer but the stats are stats. In their 3 worst years, Moss had ~150 less yards but had 3 more TDs so at the very least it's a wash. Moss however did it on abysmal offensive teams fielding, at the very least, zero future HOFers.\

 

no Moss did not produce. Last year was atrocious. Makes it better when you lump in his three worst years so you can take advantage of his 13 TD's in his last year with the Vikes, don't it?

 

Moss was never a malcontent with the Vikes. He loved the Vikings and their fans. The owners, GM, and 2 teammates gave up on Randy Moss

 

 

when you turn on your Pro Bowl quarterback, you are a malcontent.

 

 

-Ok Harrison had more receptions. Advantage Harrison on receptions. However the fact that Moss fell only 153 yds short on 45 less receptions is advantage Moss. If Moss had equaled Harrison's receptions in his 3 worst years, based on Moss' career Y/R avg that would've been an extra 690 total yards. Moss' career Y/R is better than Rice, Brown, Carter, Harrison, Reed, TO, and Shannon Sharpe.

 

 

So now it's somehow a bad thing that Marvin made more catches? Maybe it's because he's open more often than just streaking down the sideline, or loafing around when his number isn't called? If "ifs and but's were candy and nuts. . ."

 

 

-Moss' career season avg is 1188yds. Harrison's is 1245yds. However excluding their 3 worst seasons... Harrison's is 1402 per year. Moss, 1395 per year. He wouldn't close the entire gap in 2 good seasons but he'd come pretty damn close.

 

 

why exactly are we excluding their three worst seasons? Oh yeah, to make your argument look better.

 

 

 

Then again he probably just should've hustled more and ran some better shallow cross routes then those teams would've been 34-14 instead of the opposite and his QBs would've put up Manning type numbers.

 

I guess we'll never know.

[CaptainHook]

You're holding playoff record against a WR?

 

That is just stupid.

 

um, why?

 

If a guy is borderline HOF stats, but has 3 Super Bowl rings (Michael Irvin), isn't he more likely to get in than a guy who has stats alone, but never got it done in the play-offs? Plus, I don't understand why everyone talks only about a QB's play-off record. There are other guys on the team too . . .

Edited June 28, 2007 by CaptainHook

[kingfish247]

I love how this standard applies to Marvin, but people conveniently ignore the fact that Moss had a HOF WR lined up opposite him for the first five years of his career.

 

Moss had 2 of his highest catch totals WITHOUT Carter.

He had his best yardage total WITHOUT Carter.

He tied his career high TDs in a season WITHOUT Carter.

 

So in 2003 it was really Dwayne Bates and Kelly Campbell that allowed Randy to break free for his 1600+/17 TDs ??? Nice try.

[kingfish247]

talk about backtracking! You said that you "defy" someone to post links of Harrison over the middle. I posted several in a clip in Post #58. There ya go! Oh, and you are really going out on a limb saying that Harrison spends more time outside the numbers than inside. He is a wide receiver. But he does go over the middle regularly.

 

I missed it. I didn't bother wading through the entire thread. I'll watch it. It still doesn't change the fact that Harrison and Moss are both prolific WRs and don't make their livings "inside the numbers". The whole inside-outside numbers thing is stupid. You line up to catch passes, gain as many yards as possible, and make TDs. Moss might not catch a lot of passes but he's been pretty good at gaining yards and making TDs. As an average per catch, he's better than quite a few names already in the Hall including Harrison.

no Moss did not produce. Last year was atrocious. Makes it better when you lump in his three worst years so you can take advantage of his 13 TD's in his last year with the Vikes, don't it?

 

So now we're not talking about their 3 worst years??? Makes it better when you tailor arguments to serve your own purpose. Harrison, in any year, has not had such abysmal QB performance as last year. When Harrison's QBs combine for a sub 60 rating, 7 TDs, and 23 INTs then get back to me.

when you turn on your Pro Bowl quarterback, you are a malcontent.

 

He turned on his QB? Or did his QB turn on him? Tit-for-tat if you ask me. Culpepper had 3 Pro Bowl Seasons... one with Carter and Moss, two with Moss. Moss has one season with some nagging injuries but manages to contributes 13 TDs in 13 games to Culpepper's LAST Pro Bowl year and suddenly Moss is expendable to Culpepper? Lots of good it's done Daunte since.

So now it's somehow a bad thing that Marvin made more catches? Maybe it's because he's open more often than just streaking down the sideline, or loafing around when his number isn't called? If "ifs and but's were candy and nuts. . ."

 

I never said that. Harrison and Moss are both outstanding WRs. Harrison catches more passes... advantage Harrison. Moss catches fewer passes but gains more Y/R and has a much lower reception:TD ratio... advantage Moss. I was only pointing out the fact that Moss has a greater Y/R and TD average than the all-time greats at the position... including Harrison.

why exactly are we excluding their three worst seasons? Oh yeah, to make your argument look better.

 

Maybe because I'm making a better argument. As a matter of comparison, Harrison AND Moss in their best statistical seasons (any season with 1100+yds AND 7+ TDs) are nearly identical except for receptions.

I guess we'll never know.

 

True, and I'll guess we'll never know what Harrison would do with an offensive coordinator fresh off 10+ years running a B&B in Idaho, a HC out of the league for 13 years, Andrew Walter and Aaron Brooks as his QBs, RBs combining for a sub 3.9 ypc, a league low 10.5pts per game, a league low 246yds per game, and a league high 73 sacks.

 

Manning has been sacked 68 times... since 2003.

[Bill Swerski]

Moss had 2 of his highest catch totals WITHOUT Carter.

He had his best yardage total WITHOUT Carter.

He tied his career high TDs in a season WITHOUT Carter.

 

That's nice. But he padded his first five years' worth of stats WITH Carter. How is that any different than Marvin benefitting from playing with Peyton? Do you not think that Randy also benefitted from a few really good years from Cunningham and Culpepper. Hell, Daunte put up an MVP-caliber season in '04 with Nate Freaking Burleson as his most productive receiver while Randy was limited with an injury.

 

So in 2003 it was really Dwayne Bates and Kelly Campbell that allowed Randy to break free for his 1600+/17 TDs ??? Nice try.

 

So in 2002, it was Quadry Ismail and a not-yet-very-good Reggie Wayne that allowed Marvin to break the single-season receptions record??? Or are you trying to argue that Peyton morphed into Superman and accurately threw the ball into double- and triple-coverage 143 times that year? Nope, I don't think that argument works, either. Nice try.

[Chavez]

um, why?

 

If a guy is borderline HOF stats, but has 3 Super Bowl rings (Michael Irvin), isn't he more likely to get in than a guy who has stats alone, but never got it done in the play-offs? Plus, I don't understand why everyone talks only about a QB's play-off record. There are other guys on the team too . . .

 

Yeah, that's why the whole "QB playoff record" is specious too; football is a team game, and for a QB/RB to do their job, they at least need the OL to provide them some operating room. An EXCELLENT QB can still be productive when lacking a star WR; I think it's pretty fair to say that it's tough for a wideout to excel with a poor QB, though.

 

It's all tremendously intertwined - and in the realm of importance, it's pretty rare for a WR to be the deciding factor on a team good enough to win a SB. And focusing on rings has gotten Irvin and Lynn Swann in but not Art Monk (key part of 3 SB winning-teams himself) or Andre Reed - both of whom have better #s than Swann or Irvin.

 

But I figure you'd realize this since Harrison has had all of 1 100+ yd game (only 2 over 75 yds) and scored 2 tds in 14 career playoff games - the playoffs don't matter as much as people like to think they do.

[CaptainHook]

I missed it. I didn't bother wading through the entire thread. I'll watch it. It still doesn't change the fact that Harrison and Moss are both prolific WRs and don't make their livings "inside the numbers". The whole inside-outside numbers thing is stupid. You line up to catch passes, gain as many yards as possible, and make TDs. Moss might not catch a lot of passes but he's been pretty good at gaining yards and making TDs. As an average per catch, he's better than quite a few names already in the Hall including Harrison.

 

 

I've already said that I think Moss is a very good WR, and that I think he will be in the HOF someday. BUT, he could have been the best WR who ever played if he was willing to do the kinds of things Marvin is willing to do.

 

So now we're not talking about their 3 worst years??? Makes it better when you tailor arguments to serve your own purpose. Harrison, in any year, has not had such abysmal QB performance as last year. When Harrison's QBs combine for a sub 60 rating, 7 TDs, and 23 INTs then get back to me.

 

No matter how you stack it, worst cumulative 3 years , worst cumulative two years, worst single season, Marvin's stats are better.

 

I never said that. Harrison and Moss are both outstanding WRs. Harrison catches more passes... advantage Harrison. Moss catches fewer passes but gains more Y/R and has a much lower reception:TD ratio... advantage Moss. I was only pointing out the fact that Moss has a greater Y/R and TD average than the all-time greats at the position... including Harrison.

 

 

How is that "advantage Moss" ? I'd rather have the guy that contributes more often than a "big-play WR".

 

Maybe because I'm making a better argument. As a matter of comparison, Harrison AND Moss in their best statistical seasons (any season with 1100+yds AND 7+ TDs) are nearly identical except for receptions.

 

 

but you can't ignore the fact that Moss' last few years, when he should be in the prime of his career, he has looked like an average WR at best. HOF players make others around them better. They don't drop down to their level and suck with them.

Edited June 28, 2007 by CaptainHook

[kingfish247]

check this video. First two clips are catches over the middle.

 

the catch my favorite part is Vrable crying for a flag after the spiked ball hits him in the facemask. What a little bitch!

 

So one 10 yard-in (in the red zone), an 8yd skinny post, and a deep post is your evidence? Yeah, Moss has never done well on ANY of those... LINK especially not around the 1:45 minute mark.

Edited June 28, 2007 by kingfish247

[CaptainHook]

So one 10 yard-in (in the red zone), an 8yd skinny post, and a deep post is your evidence? Yeah, Moss has never done well on ANY of those... LINK especially not around the 1:45 minute mark.

 

actually it was one clip I found in about 1 minute from ONE GAME. You just posted an entire 6 minute highlight clip of Moss that demonstrates perfectly what kind of WR he is. All of the highlights were down the sideline, outside the numbers. Not a single one over the middle. Thanks!

Edited June 28, 2007 by CaptainHook

[kingfish247]

No matter how you stack it, worst cumulative 3 years , worst cumulative two years, worst single season, Marvin's stats are better.

 

Uhhh... yeah, especially the cumulative part Especially when we conveniently ignore the teams when those worst stats came.

How is that "advantage Moss" ? I'd rather have the guy that contributes more often than a "big-play WR".

 

Now we're talking personal preference. I don't think I'd prefer one over the other specifically because each have parts to their game the other is lacking. Both put up gawdy numbers and both are very productive. If Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter were my QBs, I wouldn't expect EITHER to do any better than last year.

but you can't ignore the fact that Moss' last few years, when he should be in the prime of his career, he has looked like an average WR at best. HOF players make others around them better. They don't drop down to their level and suck with them.

 

Again, I'd like to see Harrison in his "prime" with the abysmal teams that Moss has been on lately. Especially the last 3-4 years. A WR can't suit up at each OL position, prevent 73 sacks, throw the ball (actually Randy was pretty decent at that when given the chance), catch the ball, gain yards, AND make TDs. No more than a QB can completely prevent himself from being sacked 73 times.

Edited June 28, 2007 by kingfish247

[CaptainHook]

Uhhh... yeah, especially the cumulative part Especially when we conveniently ignore the teams when those worst stats came.

 

Now we're talking personal preference. I don't think I'd prefer one over the other specifically because each have parts to their game the other is lacking. Both put up gawdy numbers and both are very productive. If Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter were my QBs, I wouldn't expect EITHER to do any better than last year.

 

Again, I'd like to see Harrison in his "prime" with the abysmal teams that Moss has been on lately. Especially the last 3-4 years. A WR can't suit up at each OL position, prevent 73 sacks, throw the ball (actually Randy was pretty decent at that when given the chance), catch the ball, gain yards, AND make TDs. No more than a QB can completely prevent himself from being sacked 73 times.

 

The fact that Moss was dogging it contribute to any of that? I think so. Marvin was on a team that gave up 67 sacks in 1997. Still produced. Weird, eh?

Edited June 28, 2007 by CaptainHook

[Chavez]

Bottom line, Moss' 35-723-9 in 8 playoff games means he gets it done FAR better than Harrison's 60-835-2 in 14.

[CaptainHook]

Bottom line, Moss' 35-723-9 in 8 playoff games means he gets it done FAR better than Harrison's 60-835-2 in 14.

 

3 AFC Championship appearances. 1 AFC Championship. 1 Super Bowl Championship.

 

Nada for Moss.

[Bill Swerski]

Bottom line, Moss' 35-723-9 in 8 playoff games means he gets it done FAR better than Harrison's 60-835-2 in 14.

 

Moss has faced some pretty mediocre/bad secondaries over the years (GB, ATL, ARI, DAL, NOR). He was a non-factor against the '00 Giants and '04 Eagles.

 

On the other hand, Marvin has had to face NE several times, BAL, PIT, that '00 MIA squad, and had Ty Law covering him again back in January. Even when the Colts torch DEN in the playoffs, Marvin has Champ Bailey all over his ass. He's been mediocre against a couple of mediocre secondaries ('02 Jets, '99 Titans), but I'd say that overall he's faced much better playoff defenses than Moss.

[Bier Meister]

monk has come up in the discussion. just thought i'd throw it out there.

 

 

				+--------------------------+-------------------------+			 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1980 was |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	58	797  13.7	3 || 1981 was |  16 |	 1	 -5   -5.0	0 |	56	894  16.0	6 || 1982 was |   9 |	 7	 21	3.0	0 |	35	447  12.8	1 || 1983 was |  12 |	 3	-19   -6.3	0 |	47	746  15.9	5 || 1984 was |  16 |	 2	 18	9.0	0 |   106   1372  12.9	7 || 1985 was |  15 |	 7	 51	7.3	0 |	91   1226  13.5	2 || 1986 was |  16 |	 4	 27	6.8	0 |	73   1068  14.6	4 || 1987 was |   9 |	 6	 63   10.5	0 |	38	483  12.7	6 || 1988 was |  16 |	 7	 46	6.6	0 |	72	946  13.1	5 || 1989 was |  16 |	 3	  8	2.7	0 |	86   1186  13.8	8 || 1990 was |  16 |	 7	 59	8.4	0 |	68	770  11.3	5 || 1991 was |  16 |	 9	 19	2.1	0 |	71   1049  14.8	8 || 1992 was |  16 |	 6	 45	7.5	0 |	46	644  14.0	3 || 1993 was |  16 |	 1	 -1   -1.0	0 |	41	398   9.7	2 || 1994 nyj |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	46	581  12.6	3 || 1995 phi |   3 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	 6	114  19.0	0 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 224 |	63	332	5.3	0 |   940  12721  13.5   68 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+[b]Seasons among the league's top 10Receptions: 1984-1, 1985-2, 1988-9t, 1989-3t Receiving yards: 1984-4, 1985-3, 1989-10 Receiving TDs: 1991-9t [/b]Among the league's all-time top 50Receptions: 6 Receiving yards: 11 Receiving TDs: 30t Yards from scrimmage: 32 Postseason dataYear  Opp   Result  |  RSH	YD  TD  |  REC	YD  TD---------------------+-----------------+-----------------1983  ram  W,51-7   |	0	 0   0  |	4	60   21983  sfo  W,24-21  |	0	 0   0  |	3	35   0*1983  rai  L,9-38   |	0	 0   0  |	1	26   01984  chi  L,19-23  |	0	 0   0  |   10   122   01986  ram  W,19-7   |	0	 0   0  |	5	34   01986  chi  W,27-13  |	0	 0   0  |	5	81   21986  nyg  L,0-17   |	0	 0   0  |	8   126   0*1987  den  W,42-10  |	0	 0   0  |	1	40   01990  phi  W,20-6   |	0	 0   0  |	2	44   11990  sfo  L,10-28  |	1	 9   0  |   10   163   11991  atl  W,24-7   |	1	-2   0  |	3	45   01991  det  W,41-10  |	0	 0   0  |	5	94   1*1991  buf  W,37-24  |	0	 0   0  |	7   113   01992  min  W,24-7   |	3	 7   0  |	3	35   01992  sfo  L,13-20  |	1	 3   0  |	2	44   0---------------------+-----------------+-----------------TOTAL				|	6	17   0  |   69  1062   7

 

 

to his detriment, he was on the low side of top 10 in rec categories for his era vs his peers.

 

to his credit: he has very nice rankings in the top 50 despite an increase in passing and more favorable rules for offense since his retirement.

[Chavez]

3 AFC Championship appearances. 1 AFC Championship. 1 Super Bowl Championship.

 

Nada for Moss.

 

In the Vikings NFC title games, Moss had a solid 6-75-1 against Atl and stank it up (along with the rest of the Vikes) against NY. Of course, since the Vikes D allowed 30 and 41 points, about the only way he could've done more is to play defense.

 

 

Harrison's 3 AFC title game numbers were 12-104-0. TOTAL. And his SB numbers were a workmanlike 5-59.

 

 

Harrison has not been outstanding by any means in the postseason. It doesn't make ME think less of him in the least, but I'm not the one who says those numbers should carry any weight.

[Chavez]

Moss has faced some pretty mediocre/bad secondaries over the years (GB, ATL, ARI, DAL, NOR). He was a non-factor against the '00 Giants and '04 Eagles.

 

There wasn't much Moss could've done against the Giants, aside from pile up garbage yards - that was a total team ass-pounding. I enjoyed every second of it, but that's neither here nor there...

 

ATL - went 14-2 and lost the SB; top ten D in scoring and total yds

 

DAL - top 10 D in scoring and total yds; top ten in TDs allowed, ints, 12th in yds per pass

 

ARI - awful defense. I'm sure Aeneas Williams was nowhere near Moss in that game.

 

NO - 10th in pts, 11th in yds; around the top 10 in all notable passing categories

 

GB, NOR - rotten defenses

 

So, by the numbers, at least 3 of those Ds you disparage as "medicore" were solid. It's not murderer's row, but they ARE defenses that did enough to help their team get into the playoffs.

[Bill Swerski]

There wasn't much Moss could've done against the Giants, aside from pile up garbage yards - that was a total team ass-pounding. I enjoyed every second of it, but that's neither here nor there...

 

ATL - went 14-2 and lost the SB; top ten D in scoring and total yds

 

DAL - top 10 D in scoring and total yds; top ten in TDs allowed, ints, 12th in yds per pass

 

ARI - awful defense. I'm sure Aeneas Williams was nowhere near Moss in that game.

 

NO - 10th in pts, 11th in yds; around the top 10 in all notable passing categories

 

GB, NOR - rotten defenses

 

So, by the numbers, at least 3 of those Ds you disparage as "medicore" were solid. It's not murderer's row, but they ARE defenses that did enough to help their team get into the playoffs.

 

I don't consider those Saints or Cowboys secondaries to be anything near what the Colts have faced in the playoffs over the past 8 years. Randy would've done jack squat against the Pats, Steelers, and Ravens playoff defenses.

 

Outside of Aeneas Williams, I don't see any elite CBs on those squads either (Harris and McKenzie in GB were good, but not much better than Deshea Townsend or Samari Rolle). On the other hand, Marvin has had to line up against, Champ Bailey, Ty Law, Chris McAllister, Sam Madison, Asante Samuel, etc. Seriously, look at Marvin's numbers against the Broncos since they acquired Champ. Peyton doesn't even bother throwing the ball his way.

 

I agree that what Marvin and Randy have or haven't done in the playoffs doesn't mean much. My point is that the level of defensive talent (especially the corners) that the two have faced isn't even close to equal.

[Chavez]

I agree that what Marvin and Randy have or haven't done in the playoffs doesn't mean much.

 

 

So we agree.

 

EDIT - the post that bundled your undies was intended as an obviously facetious poke at Hook's moronic playoff assertion.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Chavez

[Donutrun Jellies]

This man should not drift away and be forgotten, regardless of his punk attitude.

 

Actually that is EXACTLY why he should drift away and be forgotten. Impressed by his numbers? Well, put his numbers in the HOF with a plaque that explains how much of his talent he wasted with his punk attitude ...

[Bill Swerski]

EDIT - the post that bundled your undies was intended as an obviously facetious poke at Hook's moronic playoff assertion.

 

I don't recall my undies being bundled , but I'm glad that we agree on something.

[Chavez]

I don't recall my undies being bundled ,

 

It happens so often to you, I assume you don't even notice it anymore.

[Perchoutofwater]

This thread makes me laugh.