Savage Beatings Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Why do you hate America ? Can we please get back to ESPN only showing the f'n Yankess and the stupid Red Sox only on TV now? I didn't even realize there were other teams still playing nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 No matter if he used them or not, in my mind he's one of the top 5 players of all time, period. The game is a joke for the way the league let the athletes do whatever they could to gain an advantage over others, but that's what some competitors do, they look for anyway to seperate themselves from the pack. I wouldn't be surprised at all if ARod had envolvement in this a few years back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheikYerbuti Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 No matter if he used them or not, in my mind he's one of the top 5 players of all time, period. 1. Ruth 2. Mays 3. Aaron So now the real question is, does Bonds get one of the last 2 spots that could be filled by: DiMaggio, Gehrig, Musial, Cy Young, Nolan Ryan, Ted Williams, Bonds, Mantle, Robinson, Rogers Hornsby, Rose, or Clemens. Maybe. . .but he's still a Megan Fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 1. Ruth2. Mays 3. Aaron So now the real question is, does Bonds get one of the last 2 spots that could be filled by: DiMaggio, Gehrig, Musial, Cy Young, Nolan Ryan, Ted Williams, Bonds, Mantle, Robinson, Rogers Hornsby, Rose, or Clemens. Maybe. . .but he's still a Megan Fox. From that list I'd probably pick Teddy Ballgame and Hornsby (not on the list, Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb getting serious consideration). As far as pitchers, I'd probably throw my lot in with Walter Johnson or Christy Mathewson. I loved what I read on ESPN. A guy wrote in that if he caught the 756th home run ball, he'd pull his Sharpie out and put an asterisk on it immediately! Now that would be great for history! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgaddis Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) F'ing Cheater... I can't wait until Torii Hunter breaks the record... Edited August 8, 2007 by alexgaddis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 1. Ruth2. Mays 3. Aaron So now the real question is, does Bonds get one of the last 2 spots that could be filled by: DiMaggio, Gehrig, Musial, Cy Young, Nolan Ryan, Ted Williams, Bonds, Mantle, Robinson, Rogers Hornsby, Rose, or Clemens. Maybe. . .but he's still a Megan Fox. I'd probably list him at #4 honestly. He's the Home Run King. Is 15 RBI's away from #2 all time. He's 85 hits away from 3000. He's the only member of the 500, 500 club, has 7 MVP's, tons of golden gloves, nobody has the stats he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeeman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) Wow, lots of hypocrisy here. Many of us have talked about dumb mistakes made in the past, including driving - speeding, drunk driving, etc. And yet we drill those who have been caught. The difference lies only in who has been unlucky enough to get caught. Does anyone think Rose was the only high profile player to bet on baseball, or Sosa the only slugger to use a corked bat? I seriously doubt it..... Either vote everyone into the HOF who deserves it on numbers, and avoid any dumb asterisks on records, or keep em all out and put asterisks everywhere that there is even a suspiscion. There are so many who have cheated, in one way another, throughout the years - how do you selectively keep it all straight? Some guys sound like we should resurrect a new sports version of the Spanish Inquisition, and get to the bottom of it all. That won't happen, so we're stuck with this crap forever. Just because someone got caught, or someone is suspected but never caught - how are they different from the ones who got away with it? I'm sorry, but with the boozing, gluttony and women things, Ruth was not a great role model either. But probably deserves the title of ' the most talented'; to do those great athletic things despite being hungover half the time - amazing! And don't forget some of those years were during Prohibition - so it was 'illegal' too. Baseball, NASCAR, cycling, track, football, swimming - the list of sports cheating scandals (usually drugs, but sometimes equipment,) is long and will continue to get longer. Baseball lookeed the other way for years, because the sport needed the attention (read: money $) that the homerun chases brought after the strike. And the decisions to cheat are all about the money for that person and their family - and what they see everyday in the lockeroom and elsewhere makes it easier to cheat. I'm sure that from the insider's perspective, all this 'integrity of the sport' is pure crap. Its always about the money... We can all say we'd never do it, if put in the same situation - yeah, right. So here it is: 1) use the juice and make a ton of money in the bigs for your family, or 2) stay clean and risk being sent down to the minors because your hitting suffers, relatively speaking, due to the juiced pitchers throwing harder and harder at you and the other hitters next to you juicing. And eventually maybe suffer an injury in the minors, and never get back to the 'show' to earn the big $ again. Hmm... can we really say we'd make the right choice - really? Its soooo eeasy here on a message board.... Edited August 8, 2007 by Coffeeman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 i think the problem is that he has not come clean and admitted that he used steroids or some other performance enhancing drug.(if he did) just like macguire, his little stint in front of congress will probably cost him the hall of fame. just come clean. we are a pretty forgiving society if you fess up and take some responsiblity. imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 records like this really don't mean much, IMO. barry bonds is not the greatest home run hitter of all time. hank aaron is not the greatest home run hitter of all time. baseball changes so much from one era to another, compaing the pure number of home runs hit of, say, barry bonds versus babe ruth, is an exercise in futility. you've got to look at a LOT of other factors. what is barry bonds? he's the greatest hitter of his era. he's also sort of a prick, but who really cares except the crybaby media who he refuses to cater to? is he a cheater? probably, but that's sort of a grey area IMO. is it cheating to do something the sport as a whole is tacitly endorsing with their lionizing of mcgwire and sosa, and their aggressive marketing of power baseball while intentionally looking the other way? i think it's pretty lame that barry bonds is being made the fall guy for the transgressions of an entire sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Hmm... can we really say we'd make the right choice - really? Its soooo eeasy here on a message board.... The difference is that he wants for us to celebrate his "mistake" instead of owning up to it. Just because a lot of us make immoral or bad decisions in our lives doesn't mean that life should degenerate into a no rules free-for-all. If he were to come clean and admit he actually gave in to temptation in order to gain an advantage by using performance enhancers, then I might finally gain some respect for the guy. As it is, I'm not going to celebrate a guy who "got away with it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Coffeeman, I don't blame Bonds for doing what he did. I blame baseball for not doing anything about it. The hypocrisy lies with them. They wanted to bring people back to the sport after the strike and refused to punish McGwire and Sosa because their home runs were bringing people back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeeman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 The difference is that he wants for us to celebrate his "mistake" instead of owning up to it. Just because a lot of us make immoral or bad decisions in our lives doesn't mean that life should degenerate into a no rules free-for-all. If he were to come clean and admit he actually gave in to temptation in order to gain an advantage by using performance enhancers, then I might finally gain some respect for the guy. As it is, I'm not going to celebrate a guy who "got away with it." Rose didn't get away with it - so is he okay in your book, and deserving of the HOF? Or is it all about repentence? I say Bonds is one of the top 10, maybe top 5, players of all time, and therefore deserves to be in the HOF, regardless of whether he 'comes clean'. I believe in making the right choices in life, but the HOF - and the record books - for a given sport is not a character thing. No one can argue that Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb were high character guys, and I don't think they ever 'repented' of anything. But no one (or few?) would argue that they should be pulled out of the HOF. Armstrong likely cheated in cycling, but wasn't caught - can we say he's the best cyclist ever, or not? Michael Irvin had a tearful, heartfelt induction speech on Saturday for his HOF day. Does he turn into a good role model just because he fessed up? I think not. But maybe getting into heaven is like getting into the HOF - a deathbed confession never hurts..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeeman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Coffeeman, I don't blame Bonds for doing what he did. I blame baseball for not doing anything about it. The hypocrisy lies with them. They wanted to bring people back to the sport after the strike and refused to punish McGwire and Sosa because their home runs were bringing people back. I agree - leave Bonds alone. He is a jerk, but so was Ruth, Cobb, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) No matter if he used them or not, in my mind he's one of the top 5 players of all time, period. The game is a joke for the way the league let the athletes do whatever they could to gain an advantage over others, but that's what some competitors do, they look for anyway to seperate themselves from the pack. I wouldn't be surprised at all if ARod had envolvement in this a few years back. records like this really don't mean much, IMO. barry bonds is not the greatest home run hitter of all time. hank aaron is not the greatest home run hitter of all time. baseball changes so much from one era to another, compaing the pure number of home runs hit of, say, barry bonds versus babe ruth, is an exercise in futility. you've got to look at a LOT of other factors. what is barry bonds? he's the greatest hitter of his era. he's also sort of a prick, but who really cares except the crybaby media who he refuses to cater to? is he a cheater? probably, but that's sort of a grey area IMO. is it cheating to do something the sport as a whole is tacitly endorsing with their lionizing of mcgwire and sosa, and their aggressive marketing of power baseball while intentionally looking the other way? i think it's pretty lame that barry bonds is being made the fall guy for the transgressions of an entire sport. Well said, Well said! Edited August 8, 2007 by keggerz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Rose didn't get away with it - so is he okay in your book, and deserving of the HOF? Or is it all about repentence? I say Bonds is one of the top 10, maybe top 5, players of all time, and therefore deserves to be in the HOF, regardless of whether he 'comes clean'. I believe in making the right choices in life, but the HOF - and the record books - for a given sport is not a character thing. No one can argue that Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb were high character guys, and I don't think they ever 'repented' of anything. But no one (or few?) would argue that they should be pulled out of the HOF. Armstrong likely cheated in cycling, but wasn't caught - can we say he's the best cyclist ever, or not? Michael Irvin had a tearful, heartfelt induction speech on Saturday for his HOF day. Does he turn into a good role model just because he fessed up? I think not. But maybe getting into heaven is like getting into the HOF - a deathbed confession never hurts..... You come out calling everyone hypocrites because they don't like that Barry Bonds probably used performance enhancers while everyone makes mistakes. Your "everybody is doing it so its ok" approach just doesn't fly. You like the guy and you want to celebrate his accomplishments. Good for you. But you can SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS !!! right off for coming here and trying to admonish the people who do not want to celebrate his milestone. I couldn't care less about Rose or Armstrong or Irvin. And frankly even if Bonds (or any of those others) came out with a mea culpa and admitted everything, I wouldn't studdenly think he is HOF worthy. I would simply respect him a little bit more as a human being for having the balls to finally own up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeeman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 And frankly even if Bonds (or any of those others) came out with a mea culpa and admitted everything, I wouldn't studdenly think he is HOF worthy. I would simply respect him a little bit more as a human being for having the balls to finally own up to it. Blood pressure ever get raised much? sheesh.... Sounds like nothing Bonds does would make you put him in the HOF, or respect his record - something that both Selig and Aaron did in their statements, despite the (potential, alleged) steriod usage. So what makes someone worthy of being in the HOF for their sport, in your opinion? Being an all around good guy? And I never said I thought that 1) 'everybody does it' or 2) that it makes it okay, if #1 were true. I think it sucks that so many premier players (probably) did this, and baseball should've come down harder a long time ago - not now holding Bonds alone up as the Anti-Christ, as he breaks yet another record. People have said they look forward to A-Rod or Pujols breaking it now - how do we know with 100% certainty that they're clean? Because no accusations have yet surfaced? Seems naive to me... I only suggested that none of us could possibly put ourself in their shoes to know how we'd react. Unless you are a former big leaguer yourself who managed to play a long career without any steroids. In that case, I'll take it back.... Oh, and about all the other players from around 1985 on into the future - we'll NEVER know about most of them, except for the ones who get caught. This goes for referrees on the take also. Same with any sports game/race/Olympic event and any other sporting event you and your kids will ever watch. What's next - alleged pot smoking amongst the X-Games athletes? They'll have to just shut the whole thing down! Yeah, it sucks. So what can we do? View it as entertainment only, and don't ever place real $ betting on a potentially rigged piece of entertainment. Then you can sleep better, let someone have their place in the HOF/record books for what they are, etc. Good luck on the blood pressure thing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) records like this really don't mean much, IMO. barry bonds is not the greatest home run hitter of all time. hank aaron is not the greatest home run hitter of all time. Given that Ruth out-homered entire TEAMS back in the '20s and that Barry is still over 100 HRs shy of Sadaharu Oh, I'd agree with that. Edited August 8, 2007 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh B Tool Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) So.......... How many tests has he failed? How many of the pitchers he faced were on roids? Clemens grew too and nobody has said boo. How many times has he been walked? More than any slugger, EVER. He basically invented the 40/40 category when he was a skinny punk. 8 time gold glove winner. Multiple MVP winner. If you meatwads want an asterik next to his name then each and every stat and or record during that era needs an astrik next to it. World Series included along with Cal Jr. etc. etc. Aloof dinkwad? Yes. Top ten altime ballplayer? without a doubt Edited August 8, 2007 by Hugh B Tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I'm sorry, but with the boozing, gluttony and women things, Ruth was not a great role model either. But probably deserves the title of ' the most talented'; to do those great athletic things despite being hungover half the time - amazing! And don't forget some of those years were during Prohibition - so it was 'illegal' too. I'd think you would agree that none of the boozing, gluttony, and womanizing that Ruth did enhanced his performance. Coffeeman, I don't blame Bonds for doing what he did. I blame baseball for not doing anything about it. The hypocrisy lies with them. Spoken like a true lieberal, don't take responsibility as an individual or give the blame to an organization...oh wait...TimC?... How far you have fallen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeeman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I'd think you would agree that none of the boozing, gluttony, and womanizing that Ruth did enhanced his performance. True dat - like I said, that makes it even more impressive. Although the pitchers he faced weren't juiced either, so its one of those 'comparing different era' problems. Maybe there were other kinds of cheating back then too. So all we have is the # itself, 756 - is it impressive or not? How many guys of any era have been able to sustain that kind of slugging production over that many years? Very few, and I submit that unless a full on Inquisition-type investigation into all players past, present and future can cleary put them all into one category or another, you shouldn't villify one guy over others for alleged cheating. It appears that McGwire, Sosa and Bonds all probably used them - and they're in the spotlight because of their success. What about all those that used them that couldn't rise to the same level, despite the cheating? I say those 3 guys are still pretty unique athletes then, like Ruth clearly was in his day. That is all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 The fact that everyone is suspected of juicing is one of the reasons I no longer watch baseball, along with the Rangers just sucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 it's kinda funny that a guy like gaylord perry is in the HOF, over NO ONE's objection, and cheating is what he was famous for, part of his whole persona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 it's kinda funny that a guy like gaylord perry is in the HOF, over NO ONE's objection, and cheating is what he was famous for, part of his whole persona. troof, and i am sure he wasnt the only one doing those tricks back then either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 (edited) So.......... How many tests has he failed? How many of the pitchers he faced were on roids? Clemens grew too and nobody has said boo. How many times has he been walked? More than any slugger, EVER. He basically invented the 40/40 category when he was a skinny punk. 8 time gold glove winner. Multiple MVP winner. If you meatwads want an asterik next to his name then each and every stat and or record during that era needs an astrik next to it. World Series included along with Cal Jr. etc. etc. Aloof dinkwad? Yes. Top ten altime ballplayer? without a doubt I agree with all of your points here. Also, MLB is what needs the asterik not any individual player. Edited August 9, 2007 by max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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