Azazello1313 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 None the less, the proof is this: 36 years ago a swimmer set what was an amazing record of 7 golds at the same olympics. In the 36 years that followed, nobody had really come close or even bothered to attempt to go for it with the exception of... you guessed it, another swimmer. Now, finally, after all that time, somebody finally broke the record. A swimmer. yeah, that's the proof alright. he broke a 36 year old record that was thought untouchable. that sorta makes it a once-in-a-generation accomplishment. So, perhaps the point is more that the pool allows someone more chances to medal within a somewhat limited skill set than any other events. pretty long-winded argument to prove a point I doubt anyone would contest. Now, if Phelps won a medal in the 1000 meter freestyle, the 200 meter backstroke, the 200 breaststroke, the 200 fly, and a bunch of freestyle events that would certainly (from a competitive swimmer's standpoint) be an amazing feat. His versatility across the strokes is apparent in his record breaking 400M individual medley, but even as he was the most dominant athlete in that regard he can't compete against specialists in breaststroke and backstroke. If your point is that it is easier for a swimmer to win 8 medals than any other athlete, I might be inclined to agree with you on that. But that was not what I took issue with. It is that somehow different envents take different body types and/or skills in track, but not in swimming. That's just not close to being the case, and the proof is in the results. I see det's point about body type, most elite swimmers seem to be similar in that respect -- at least visibly -- across distances and disciplines (that little japanese guy that destroyed everyone in the breast stroke events would be the first exception to come to mind). but the training regimens preparing for distance events vs sprints really seems to rule out swimmers being elite at both at the same time. phelps, it should be noted, competed in races at 100m and at 400m, which one could probably argue is nearly as difficult and out of the ordinary as a sprinter competing at the same two distances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) You won't find many (if any) swimmers that won medals in both the sprint events and the distance events (say the men's 1500 meter freestyle). Damn near impossible, the training program is completely different. phelps, it should be noted, competed in races at 100m and at 400m, which one could probably argue is nearly as difficult and out of the ordinary as a sprinter competing at the same two distances. Exactly, the 50 and the 100m share similar training programs but adding another 300M requires distance training. Edited August 20, 2008 by twiley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) phelps, it should be noted, competed in races at 100m and at 400m, which one could probably argue is nearly as difficult and out of the ordinary as a sprinter competing at the same two distances. The 400m was the individual medley. Without getting into too much detail, this is not such an uncommon crossover. Because the race covers 4 different strokes the fatigue that is experienced is different that if one were racing 400M in an individual stroke. I am not disagreeing with your point as much as saying that it's like running a race 50 meters forwards, 50 meters running bckwards, 50 meters walking on your hands, and then 50 meters cross stepping. It just used different muscles for each part. To clarify....the main thing with this type of race is not the distance as much as your ability to work across the 4 strokes. The distance is definitely a factor and this race is about as long as any sprinter would want to get involved in, but in a way it's like doing 4 different sprints in a row. Edited August 20, 2008 by Caveman_Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 The 400m was the individual medley. Without getting into too much detail, this is not such an uncommon crossover. Because the race covers 4 different strokes the fatigue that is experienced is different that if one were racing 400M in an individual stroke. I am not disagreeing with your point as much as saying that it's like running a race 50 meters forwards, 50 meters running bckwards, 50 meters walking on your hands, and then 50 meters cross stepping. It just used different muscles for each part. We did different swim ladder programs than those that just swam one stroke. It was a bitch and quite a bit harder IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 We did different swim ladder programs than those that just swam one stroke. It was a bitch and quite a bit harder IMO. the IM is a very difficult race. I would drown in my current physical condition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Now, I never said that anyone in the pool who can win in sprints can win in distance. Rather that they'd be able to hang in there better than a runner doing the same. Forget Bolt v Phelps for a second. Take someone like Walter Dix, who also faired quite well in the sprints vs a borderline medalist in the men's 100/200 Free. Enter them both in the 1600 m against very good but not national caliber athletes. Dix doesn't win that race, but I'd bet the swimmer does. So, what I am saying is that if you ratchet that down, it does become easier to win at two consecutive lengths say 50 and 100 or 100 and 200 or 200 and 400, than it is on the track. Why do you have to pretend that I'm implying a guy could win at 100 and 1600 to make your point? Yes, the training is different but not as different as track. I used to be a coaching intern for the Cal track team. The sprinters did maybe a mile warm-up, then stretched, and then did intervals or stairs or other strength based endurance activities. Middle distance and distance runners had more similar workouts but both were vastly different than the sprinters. With the exception of the 400 IM, all of Phelps races are 200 or less, but dude warms up over 3K and puts in as many miles as a distance guy, he's just doing shorter intervals, but not entirely to exclusion of longer sets. We never sent the sprinters out on a 10K road run. So, again, if Phelps or any other elite swimmer who does the 200 was to be entered into the 800, they wouldn't be nearly as screwed as a pure track sprinter. It would not be the first time that they were going that distance as quickly as they could. So, it's a combination of a number of things: #1 that even sprinters are training in a fashion that promotes the aerobic capacity to contend with longer distances, #2 that there are 4 strokes at most distances so there's more chances to medal anyway. And yes, AZ, the fact that only two athletes have gotten 7 golds and both just happened to be swimmers says a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 All I know is that I swam the 800M free for poops and giggles once to see how I'd fair and they damn near had to pull me out with the hook. I'm not comparing myself to Phelps but I finished dead last and could kill any of those swimmers 400M or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Yes, the training is different but not as different as track. I used to be a coaching intern for the Cal track team. The sprinters did maybe a mile warm-up, then stretched, and then did intervals or stairs or other strength based endurance activities. Middle distance and distance runners had more similar workouts but both were vastly different than the sprinters. With the exception of the 400 IM, all of Phelps races are 200 or less, but dude warms up over 3K and puts in as many miles as a distance guy, he's just doing shorter intervals, but not entirely to exclusion of longer sets. We never sent the sprinters out on a 10K road run. So, again, if Phelps or any other elite swimmer who does the 200 was to be entered into the 800, they wouldn't be nearly as screwed as a pure track sprinter. It would not be the first time that they were going that distance as quickly as they could. I can't speak for Cal, but sprinters I trained with regularly ran 2-3 mile warm-ups. Whatever. Again, your assertion that anyone that disagrees with you is flat out wrong (see my original post) on body types, etc is what I took issue with. Even if you don't care to retract that statement I think I have shown it to be at the very least an overstatement if not flat out wrong in and of itself. I don't want to stretch this across every training semantic for every kind of swimming/track event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 That said, it is slightly unfair to compare swimmers to other events because the events are so much more similar. The types of bodies it takes to excel at, say the 100, 200, and 400 meters on the track are just vastly different. Not quite as much so for swimming. Plus, there's the different strokes. Now, before any of you hardcore swimmers (or rather people who pretend they know more than they do) try to say that's not the case. Understand that, quite simply, you are flat out wrong if you don't agree. Well I'm not the one who took "not quite as much as vastly different" to mean that any swimmer who's good at any distance can dominate at any other distance. So I don't think I'm the one get hung up on semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 *****Spoiler Alert AZ, Spoiler Alert********************* Holy chit - take a sneak peak at this dude- it is hard to even believe what you are watching is real......... Bolt Is Ridiculous scroll down a bit to the video What Bolt has done is much much more impressive to me than Phelps - IT iS FREAKING SWIMMING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 *****Spoiler Alert AZ, Spoiler Alert********************* Holy chit - take a sneak peak at this dude- it is hard to even believe what you are watching is real......... Bolt Is Ridiculous scroll down a bit to the video What Bolt has done is much much more impressive to me than Phelps - IT iS FREAKING SWIMMING OK, that's just sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Someone needs to run some urine tests on that guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Someone needs to run some urine tests on that guy. yeah, these times seem to be coming out of nowhere for him. up until late last year, he couldn't beat guys that are now finishing 6 10ths of a second behind him. he either really came into his form in a major way, or he's getting a little chemical assistance (or both). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirehairman Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 yeah, these times seem to be coming out of nowhere for him. up until late last year, he couldn't beat guys that are now finishing 6 10ths of a second behind him. he either really came into his form in a major way, or he's getting a little chemical assistance (or both). Yeah, it's true he couldn't beat them when he was only 18 or 19. Track is different than gymnastics and is not a sport that teenagers can dominate. Based upon all the Phelps interviews, they drug tested the crap out of him, and I'm sure Bolt is undergoing the same scrutiny. Maybe, Bolt really is a freak of nature, and his body just finally matured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budlitebrad Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 They've been testing the Jamaicans a lot this month (7 times for Bolt) according to the news. Doing so well obviously raises flags in this day and age. After reading Bolt's bio, it seems like his performance has had a pretty steady progression. He's only 21, so his times could even improve. And if we eventually discover that he's been cheating... man, that'll be one heck of a blow to track and field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 werd - the guy is an absolute freak. What is his time if he finishes the race? 9.59?? what iin the world is goin on here?? I have never seen a human being run like that - it isn't even close edit - link to have a look Bolt - Fastest Man Yeah, it's true he couldn't beat them when he was only 18 or 19. Track is different than gymnastics and is not a sport that teenagers can dominate. Based upon all the Phelps interviews, they drug tested the crap out of him, and I'm sure Bolt is undergoing the same scrutiny. Maybe, Bolt really is a freak of nature, and his body just finally matured. Yeah, I'd probably posit that with Bolt being 6'5, like myself, he has an usually long stride compared to others who have set records. Put the same speed on him as the other guys, well, he goes faster due to his...length. I was hoping Bolt would absolutely put the 100m record out of reach for many moons, since you never know if he is gonna die on the plane ride back from China or some crazy Chinaman is going to stab him the next day. If you have the opportunity, in my opinion, you take advantage of your "best" run to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 The thing is that looking at Bolt, he looks like he's going to win the race from the very beginning because he's so much bigger than everyone else. It looks like he's a regular size guy that somehow qualified for the midget olympics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 (edited) Yeah, it's true he couldn't beat them when he was only 18 or 19. Track is different than gymnastics and is not a sport that teenagers can dominate. Based upon all the Phelps interviews, they drug tested the crap out of him, and I'm sure Bolt is undergoing the same scrutiny. Maybe, Bolt really is a freak of nature, and his body just finally matured. well, he's 22 tomorrow....so in 2007 he was 20, 21 not 18 or 19. but yeah, he's young and he could just be developing really quickly, because that WOULD be the age where it would happen. but track is one of the dirtiest sports out there, and suspicions are only natural. hopefully they never amount to anything with him. edit: do they test for HGH? IS there a reliable test? Edited August 21, 2008 by Azazello1313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 yeah, these times seem to be coming out of nowhere for him. up until late last year, he couldn't beat guys that are now finishing 6 10ths of a second behind him. he either really came into his form in a major way, or he's getting a little chemical assistance (or both). Either that or he is wearing a wolf shirt under his clothes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Hijacking yer beef with Det a bit here, but wow, Bo Jackson is that you?? I have never met an athlete beyond pee-wee level that has competed in swimming AND track - care to elaborate? I grew up in a swimming-rich area with a ton of guys swimming for Pac 10 schools, NONE of them was ever confused with a track athlete Just isn't reall a good cross-mix of skills are you saying that people that swim can't be good athletes out of the water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 are you saying that people that swim can't be good athletes out of the water? From my personal experience, most stong/elite swimmers are just not good overall athletes on land (football/basketball/baseball, throwing/running/jumping. For example, my high school won state in swimming, and we had quite a few swim D1,II, III - besides cross-country NONE of them crossed over and were good enough to play football, baseball or soccer/track - back in high school, most kids played each sport each season, the best athetes where I am from played some combo of football/basketball/baseball or track - in my conference I knew a bunch of doods that swam for STAN, CAL, UW, ASU - none, zero of them were good in other sports(cept CC) - Some of my boys I grew up with play Pac 10 football, baseball and small college basketball - they all played other sports at a high level I mean, how often do you hear of a swimmer passing up a scholarship to sign a pro baseball contract, or maybe play some D1 football?? where I am from - you played the main sports, and if you couldn't - you swam my idea of a great athlete is someone that can cross over- Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders- and the original Jim Thorpe I mean recently on say for example Superstars competition, we have seen dudes like Johnny Mosely, Brian Moorman show how suprisingly great of an athlete they are, - me thinks Phelps ain't representing too strongly in something like that............ Now maybe swimmers spend too much time in the water, they don't have the time to play other sports, and it doesn't translate - I have no idea, they are just two completely different animals. Currently I have friends here who were good enough to swim in the Olympic trials- and for the most part they throw a football like a chick, can't play hoops for chit and have terrible hand-eye skills..... I have tremedous respek for Phelps, and swimming - doing a triathlon is a goal of mine- I just think in the pecking order of sports and athletes., it is nowhere near the top. I just happen to think in the big picture - a feat like Bolt getting the WR in the 100 & 200 which has never been done in the Olympic games, more impressive............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirehairman Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 well, he's 22 tomorrow....so in 2007 he was 20, 21 not 18 or 19. but yeah, he's young and he could just be developing really quickly, because that WOULD be the age where it would happen. but track is one of the dirtiest sports out there, and suspicions are only natural. hopefully they never amount to anything with him. edit: do they test for HGH? IS there a reliable test? I saw an interview that stated he'd just turned 21, but they said his 22nd birthday was yesterday during the olympic broadcast. The interview I saw must have been older. My bad. Still, it seems like the vast majority of the runners are in their mid to late 20's. Considering the drastic physical development basketball and football players go through during college, I still think he is just starting to fully develop and could even be faster before he peaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSUChiefsTarheelFan Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Someone needs to run some urine tests on that guy. Have you ever had the Josh Gordon in Jamaica? I hear it's pretty good....maybe that's giving him a little boost mon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 I think in order to make sprinting comparable to swimming they need to add in new sprint events like: the 100-meter backwards run the 200-meter skip etc. etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 I think in order to make sprinting comparable to swimming they need to add in new sprint events like:the 100-meter backwards run the 200-meter skip etc. etc. etc. Sure, then you have to add in a 50 meter dash as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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