Dogs fighting...legal/moral question

[Bird Dog]

I agree. I would seek legal advise before even thinking about paying that vet bill but before that I would photograph your neighbor walking his dogs without the leash. Don't be a push over you need to position yourself as the Alpha in your new community not sniff his asss..

[The Hitter]

Thanks for the reply, Opie, but you are wrong. If Jake was off-leash and ran over and got his arse whipped by a dog on a leash, I would definitely be upset, but I would certainly not be asking the leashed dog's owner to pay for the damages. To me, that would be the same as if Jake entered into another dog's fenced area. It would be a hard lesson to learn but I would learn it (and Jake too). That's the reason for leash laws.

[dmarc117]

i'd let the guy know how much your willing to give now and not later. be upfront and tell him how u feel.

 

and get all of this documented in case in the future you need to get an association vote for something for your home. you may get shafted by him and need to show that he has a bias against you. imo

Edited September 3, 2008 by dmarc117

[Bird Dog]

What if the off leashed dog gets an infection and needs his leg cut-off or needs to be put down as a result?

 

Also don't forget that this vet might try to take advantage of you.

 

 

Is your dog Jake up to date on his shots?

[Sugar Magnolia]

Some people have already touched on this. Many dogs feel trapped on a leash and are more likely to aggress especially if the other dog is off leash. It is a fear based behavior. It could be he was protecting you but most likely not. I deal with 2-3 leash aggression cases every week.

 

My concern is that Jake chose to bite hard enough to do harm when the other dog was retreating and the other dog was showing non-threatening body language. He either doesn't have good bite inhibition or meant to do harm, and can do that to the next dog he perceives a threat. That's where a trainer needs to come in. You can't afford to have him do this again. In Jake's eyes his actions/aggression worked, it got the other dog to go away. He won't forget that. You need a trainer who has dealt with aggression cases using sound scientific principles. If the trainer doesn't know what counter conditioning and desensitization mean, or have not implemented these methods in his/her practice I'd move on.

 

Like I mentioned, I can probably find someone in your area unless you live way out in the boon docks.

 

Also, when a client tells me a story like this where a dog has been socialized and the aggression comes out of the blue, I recommend to have the dog vet checked. There could be something going on that is not real apparent. Also, you just moved. Moving causes stress. My Gordon Setter went through a period of anxiety and stress that tipped over to aggression when we moved. Anxiety, stress, and frustration are key elements that cause aggression in dogs. In people too, I might add.

[I Like Soup]

I'm asking for legit advice on how to handle this situation. I want to be able to bring it up to Greg when he comes by with the bill, but I'm not sure how I can without it turning very ugly. Like I said, we just moved here so I really don't want to start off on the wrong foot with everyone. Its a very small neighborhood (about 20 homes) and everyone is really friendly. Exactly what we were looking for for our kids to grow up in.

Please offer any serious advice. Thanks in advance.

 

The bolded above is a hugh point, in my opinion. Is your ideal living situation to bring your kids up worth a few grand for a knee jerk decision to ante up for whatever the bill was for Greg's dog's injuries? Seems to me in the long run, probably yes.

[SteelBunz]

Some people have already touched on this. Many dogs feel trapped on a leash and are more likely to aggress especially if the other dog is off leash. It is a fear based behavior. It could be he was protecting you but most likely not. I deal with 2-3 leash aggression cases every week.

 

My concern is that Jake chose to bite hard enough to do harm when the other dog was retreating and the other dog was showing non-threatening body language. He either doesn't have good bite inhibition or meant to do harm, and can do that to the next dog he perceives a threat. That's where a trainer needs to come in. You can't afford to have him do this again. In Jake's eyes his actions/aggression worked, it got the other dog to go away. He won't forget that. You need a trainer who has dealt with aggression cases using sound scientific principles. If the trainer doesn't know what counter conditioning and desensitization mean, or have not implemented these methods in his/her practice I'd move on.

 

Like I mentioned, I can probably find someone in your area unless you live way out in the boon docks.

 

Also, when a client tells me a story like this where a dog has been socialized and the aggression comes out of the blue, I recommend to have the dog vet checked. There could be something going on that is not real apparent. Also, you just moved. Moving causes stress. My Gordon Setter went through a period of anxiety and stress that tipped over to aggression when we moved. Anxiety, stress, and frustration are key elements that cause aggression in dogs. In people too, I might add.

 

All great stuff here, hitter. Your dog sounds like a great dog.....don't get rid of him over one incident. And it does sound like Jake felt ganged up on and a little hampered on a leash. I love Great Danes....but because they seem so layed back, they can be hard to read at times. If they came at him nose to nose, even if it seemed friendly...that's a bad way for dogs to greet each other. And because it had never happened before.....I think it's safe to say you weren't paying strict attn to the signs from Jake at the time. Not a knock....just nature. You were waiting for the owner to catch up with his dogs.

 

Sugar is right, of course. A move and a new neighborhood is stressful for a dog. New smells.....new lay of the land.......lol. Get a little help from a behaviorist....and at some point down the road.....try to ask the other owner to bring his dogs on a walk with Jake on leashes. The 5 of you walking together might aleviate the stress and create a better living situation for you all in the future.

 

As for the money thing....really tough call. I'd feel exactly as you do....responsible, yet a bit miffed at the other dogs running freely, regardless of how friendly they might be. Even though you offered quickly to pay for it....I think I'd try the 50/50 route after a calm discussion about leash laws. He won't be happy......but he might be more reasonable about it than you think.

[I Like Soup]

All great stuff here, hitter. Your dog sounds like a great dog.....don't get rid of him over one incident. And it does sound like Jake felt ganged up on and a little hampered on a leash. I love Great Danes....but because they seem so layed back, they can be hard to read at times. If they came at him nose to nose, even if it seemed friendly...that's a bad way for dogs to greet each other. And because it had never happened before.....I think it's safe to say you weren't paying strict attn to the signs from Jake at the time. Not a knock....just nature. You were waiting for the owner to catch up with his dogs.

 

Sugar is right, of course. A move and a new neighborhood is stressful for a dog. New smells.....new lay of the land.......lol. Get a little help from a behaviorist....and at some point down the road.....try to ask the other owner to bring his dogs on a walk with Jake on leashes. The 5 of you walking together might aleviate the stress and create a better living situation for you all in the future.

 

As for the money thing....really tough call. I'd feel exactly as you do....responsible, yet a bit miffed at the other dogs running freely, regardless of how friendly they might be. Even though you offered quickly to pay for it....I think I'd try the 50/50 route after a calm discussion about leash laws. He won't be happy......but he might be more reasonable about it than you think.

Yeah, a simple comment like "after the incident, I thought about the fact that your dogs weren't on a leash and mine was and what those legal implications would be as far as payment for damages..."

[SteelBunz]

Yeah, a simple comment like "after the incident, I thought about the fact that your dogs weren't on a leash and mine was and what those legal implications would be as far as payment for damages..."

subtle.....lol.

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

subtle.....lol.

 

What bunz said.

You offered up a gentleman's agreement. If you follow that up with the equivalent of "I lawyered up..." acrimony will soon follow.

Do look into the legal aspect of it, but when you interact with him make it clear that it is as a fairminded human being, apealing to his own fairmindeness, not quoting article 5 section 6 of the bylaws of the state of .....

[TimC]

This is what you need to do. Trust me, it works 100% of the time:

 

1. Buy rocking chair

2. Buy shotgun

3. Buy Confederate Flag

4. Place rocking chair on front porch

5. Hang Flag on post supporting said front porch

6. Cradle shotgun in arms while slowly rocking on said rocking chair placed on said front porch.

7. Randomly grunt and cough loudly while slowly rocking on said rocking chair placed on said front porch.

8. Enjoy peace and quiet.

 

100% effective 100% of the time.

[i_am_the_swammi]

Regardless of the amount, I will explain to him the need for him to leash his dogs at all times.

 

I feel really bad for you...you are in one tough spot.

 

Your neighbor ain't gonna like being told to leash his dogs one bit. Sounds like its a small enough neighborhood where everyone kinda lets "rules" go by the wayside. If he has lived there 10 years, his dogs have probably had free reign from leashes since they were pups. And since he is Mr. Popular, no one seems to care...I would guess they have become the "neighborhood" pets. You, as the newb, putting an end to that is gonna paint you and your family into a bad corner from the get-go, even though you'd be 100% in the right place to tell him to leash-up his Danes.

 

What I'd do: when he comes over, apologize yet again, but politely let him know that you have been thinking about it, and that your dog probably reacted the way he did because he felt threatened by the Danes charging over the play. Had they been leashed, he likely would never have acted that way. Then politely ask if he thinks it would be more fair that they split the bill, since (1) you only originally offered to cover stictches, and never dreamed that Greg's "more $$$" comment would result in multiple thousands of dollars, and (2) his dogs are partly repsonsible for coming at you unencumbered. How was your dog supposed to know their intentions? If he is in any way reasonable, he will agree. He is still getting a bargain. And you are off the hook for half of your original committment.

 

I don't think you need to bring up what he should do with his dogs in the future. If he has half a brain, he won't let his dogs near your pooch again until he is confident they won't be bitten. Telling him what to do, though, isn't your place...he should have learned a lesson at this point.

 

Sadly, you will be labled by the other families....and hopefully, they won't hold your dog against when deciding whether to let their kids play with yours while Jake is still around. Thats a real decision you will have to make in regard to how you want the neighborhood dynamic to evolve going forward.

 

Best of luck in a horrible scenario for a newbie trying to fit in amongst new neighbors.

[Bird Dog]

One day as a Lion is better than a thousand years as a lamb....

 

 

Why pay for something that's not his fault or anybody for that manner.

[The Hitter]

Again, thanks for all the advice from everyone.

 

I just got a great tip from a friend and I think I'm gonna approach Greg this way. Apologize again and let him know how sorry I am that the incident occurred. Explain to him that I checked with my homeowner's insurance and they will indeed pay the bill, but they need a police report filed in order to complete the claim. I would think that Greg would kinda back off a little since a police report would find his dogs in violation of the leash laws. He may be more acceptable to partial responsibility and maybe offer to pay a portion of the bill at that time. If he doesn't offer that, then I proceed to call the police to report the incident and get a report.

 

Seems like it would be an amicable solution to the problem without making me out to be the neighborhood 'bad guy', right? I mean, I'm willing to pay his bill, but I just want to go through the proper (and legal) paperwork to do so. It would then be on him to decide how willing he is to 'work' this out outside of those proper channels.

 

Sound good? Any downside to this?

[dmarc117]

Again, thanks for all the advice from everyone.

 

I just got a great tip from a friend and I think I'm gonna approach Greg this way. Apologize again and let him know how sorry I am that the incident occurred. Explain to him that I checked with my homeowner's insurance and they will indeed pay the bill, but they need a police report filed in order to complete the claim. I would think that Greg would kinda back off a little since a police report would find his dogs in violation of the leash laws. He may be more acceptable to partial responsibility and maybe offer to pay a portion of the bill at that time. If he doesn't offer that, then I proceed to call the police to report the incident and get a report.

 

Seems like it would be an amicable solution to the problem without making me out to be the neighborhood 'bad guy', right? I mean, I'm willing to pay his bill, but I just want to go through the proper (and legal) paperwork to do so. It would then be on him to decide how willing he is to 'work' this out outside of those proper channels.

 

Sound good? Any downside to this?

 

 

what will police do to the biting dog?

[detlef]

Again, thanks for all the advice from everyone.

 

I just got a great tip from a friend and I think I'm gonna approach Greg this way. Apologize again and let him know how sorry I am that the incident occurred. Explain to him that I checked with my homeowner's insurance and they will indeed pay the bill, but they need a police report filed in order to complete the claim. I would think that Greg would kinda back off a little since a police report would find his dogs in violation of the leash laws. He may be more acceptable to partial responsibility and maybe offer to pay a portion of the bill at that time. If he doesn't offer that, then I proceed to call the police to report the incident and get a report.

 

Seems like it would be an amicable solution to the problem without making me out to be the neighborhood 'bad guy', right? I mean, I'm willing to pay his bill, but I just want to go through the proper (and legal) paperwork to do so. It would then be on him to decide how willing he is to 'work' this out outside of those proper channels.

 

Sound good? Any downside to this?

Nicely done. Especially considering the very difficult situation you've found yourself in. That is, assuming that you're not making the bit about your homeowners insurance up.

[The Hitter]

I was told they may 'quarantine' him for a couple fo days to check for aggression. He's up to date on all his shots so no issues regarding rabies, or anything like that.

 

But I'm almost certain that Greg would be issued a pretty serious fine for the leash violation, and would have to be put on notice for future violations since he never leashes them.

 

So, knowing that, I would imagine Greg would not want the police involved.

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

Again, thanks for all the advice from everyone.

 

I just got a great tip from a friend and I think I'm gonna approach Greg this way. Apologize again and let him know how sorry I am that the incident occurred. Explain to him that I checked with my homeowner's insurance and they will indeed pay the bill, but they need a police report filed in order to complete the claim. I would think that Greg would kinda back off a little since a police report would find his dogs in violation of the leash laws. He may be more acceptable to partial responsibility and maybe offer to pay a portion of the bill at that time. If he doesn't offer that, then I proceed to call the police to report the incident and get a report.

 

Seems like it would be an amicable solution to the problem without making me out to be the neighborhood 'bad guy', right? I mean, I'm willing to pay his bill, but I just want to go through the proper (and legal) paperwork to do so. It would then be on him to decide how willing he is to 'work' this out outside of those proper channels.

 

Sound good? Any downside to this?

 

 

Well from what you have posted on this thread you sound like a very reasonable guy.

Is this actually what your home owner's insurance said, or are you just making it up? If its' true than go with it, if not, no need to make chit up, just tell him, reasonably that you are willing to share in the bill with him.

I don't know how well you know greg, but wouldn't it suck to find out after telling him about the fabricated home owners insurance that he was an insurance salesman?

[Savage Beatings]

Again, thanks for all the advice from everyone.

 

You're welcome.

[JoJoTheWebToedBoy]

Your dog sounds like he has an obedience problem. He has no respect for the leash or your voice. What have you done so far to stop this unwanted behavior?

 

Back to Hitters problem. Sounds like you have a Alpha dog problem and who the real boss is. A muzzle will only mask the problem not fix it. May I offer a suggestion on how to correct your problem? Do you have a crate inside the house? Keep your dog inside of it for 2-3 days or so. Only let him out to go to the bathroom on a leash and to feed. When you feed him feed him only by hand. Then he goes back in his crate. With this you are showing him that he needs you and that you control him.Your dominant and not him. Then when you are out walking your dog and he sees another one make him sit facing away from the other dog paying attention to you. If he looks away, jerk his leash sharply calling his name to get his attention. The object is divert his attention, get him to pay attention only to you and not let him get to the point where he can act or show aggression. If he lunges for another dog again you need to yank back with the force necessary to flip him on his back combined with a very sharp "NO". If it knocks the wind out of him and he bangs his head on the sidewalk he's learning respect. All training should incorporate the verbal and physical force necessary to earn respect and get the compliance you want. Training doesn't always require this level of force so use only what is actually necessary but be prepared to turn up the heat if needed.

 

I have a Jack Russell that just goes ballistic when other dogs get near him when he is on a leash. AT the dog park, no problems. Yes he is an Alpha dog (it's a Jack Russell) but he understands that I am the ultimate alpha follows my lead but it still doesn't stop him from the same behavior Hitter saw in Jake when a dog gets near him while he is on a leash. Tried all the tricks above, doesn't work.

 

The bolded above is a hugh point, in my opinion. Is your ideal living situation to bring your kids up worth a few grand for a knee jerk decision to ante up for whatever the bill was for Greg's dog's injuries? Seems to me in the long run, probably yes.

 

I would agree with Soup.... You agreed up front, and it causing a stink now (and yes it was 1000% his fault) could make living there a problem.

[untateve]

I feel really bad for you...you are in one tough spot.

 

Your neighbor ain't gonna like being told to leash his dogs one bit. Sounds like its a small enough neighborhood where everyone kinda lets "rules" go by the wayside. If he has lived there 10 years, his dogs have probably had free reign from leashes since they were pups. And since he is Mr. Popular, no one seems to care...I would guess they have become the "neighborhood" pets. You, as the newb, putting an end to that is gonna paint you and your family into a bad corner from the get-go, even though you'd be 100% in the right place to tell him to leash-up his Danes.

 

What I'd do: when he comes over, apologize yet again, but politely let him know that you have been thinking about it, and that your dog probably reacted the way he did because he felt threatened by the Danes charging over the play. Had they been leashed, he likely would never have acted that way. Then politely ask if he thinks it would be more fair that they split the bill, since (1) you only originally offered to cover stictches, and never dreamed that Greg's "more $$$" comment would result in multiple thousands of dollars, and (2) his dogs are partly repsonsible for coming at you unencumbered. How was your dog supposed to know their intentions? If he is in any way reasonable, he will agree. He is still getting a bargain. And you are off the hook for half of your original committment.

 

I don't think you need to bring up what he should do with his dogs in the future. If he has half a brain, he won't let his dogs near your pooch again until he is confident they won't be bitten. Telling him what to do, though, isn't your place...he should have learned a lesson at this point.

 

Sadly, you will be labled by the other families....and hopefully, they won't hold your dog against when deciding whether to let their kids play with yours while Jake is still around. Thats a real decision you will have to make in regard to how you want the neighborhood dynamic to evolve going forward.

 

Best of luck in a horrible scenario for a newbie trying to fit in amongst new neighbors.

 

I think this is the best advice thus far. I am very intelligent but I am not always right. I think you should wait and hear from AtomicCEO as he is always right.

[TimC]

Put your computer by the window facing Greg's house and pop this post up.

 

Put yer dogs on a leash, Greg!!

[I Like Soup]

I think this is the best advice thus far. I am very intelligent but I am not always right. I think you should wait and hear from AtomicCEO as he is always right.

You obviously missed my first post. Please reread the thread again. TIA.

[dmarc117]

one word..........antifreeze

[The Hitter]

I actually did speak to my homeowner's insurance agent and he basically said that there was no way I was responsible as my dog was leashed. He used the analogy that if my dog was fenced and his unleashed dog entered the fenced area, I would not be responsible as my actions (containing my dog) were lawful and his were not (not containing his dogs).

 

My agent thought I was being an idiot for paying anything at all, but after I explained my the situation with the community, he thought it was a good idea. He stated that if Greg wanted me to go ahead and file the claim, they WOULD require a police report of the incident. THEY would then work directly with Greg to resolve the dispute. However, he also stated that the insurance company would use the fact that Greg was acting 'against the law' by letting his dogs roam unleashed, and they would deny any claim based on his negligence causing the injury. Greg has already paid the bill by then, so either he takes my offer of partial responsibility/partial payment or he would pay 100% as they would deny his claim.

 

So I think that's my road. Thanks again for the advice.