muck Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I, like you, am on several daily emails of a variety of sorts. One of the ones I gets deals with a variety of Christian / ethics types of things. It seems that today's email (see below) puts a rather fine point on the cause of much of today's economic issues: ................................................. Ravi Zacharias, a renowned Christian apologist, spoke at a conference and recounted an intriguing story. A reporter from the New York Times called to get his perspective on the economic collapse, and specifically on the unethical behavior of many business executives. Ravi agreed to answer his questions if the reporter would answer one for him first. "Why is it that we train our future leaders throughout their school years that truth is relative;" Ravi asked, "that right and wrong depends upon their own personal beliefs, and then when they live and act accordingly, we want to put them in jail?" The reporter was stumped. If we desire to build ethical leaders we need to heed Jesus' words in Matthew 5:19, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." God's Word is absolute, not relative. Let's train others accordingly. ................................................. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) I suppose my concern with the notion that god's word is absolute is the fact that I have no reason to believe that bible is actually god's word. I don't think the practice of cramming one's ideology down another's throat is something new in this world and I have no more faith that those who wrote the bible were any less inclined to politics than ideologues of today. It is my ardent opinion that the bible is nothing more than the first stab ever at some version of the Constitution. They just figured out a pretty impressive way to back up their rules. Tell everyone these are absolute truths handed down from above. In this respect, the bible is nothing more than the postulates put in place to define math. These rules are taken as given and then the entire science is based upon them. Thus, all subsequent laws could then reference the bible as justification. Evidence? That there's a ton of different religions in this world and all of them claim to have a one on one with god, yet none are getting the exact same story. So, either all or all but one are sort of making things up. I'm inclined to believe the former. So, you can say that god's word is absolute and, provided there's a higher power (which I'm inclined to believe there is), I'm pretty sure that higher power is above waffling with regards to what is right and wrong. It's the next step that fails. Is it fair to say the bible explains that all of us are fundamentally flawed and less than god? OK, so you're asking me to take the word of one of these fundamentally flawed beings that this is god's word. Edited February 18, 2009 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) I don't buy that in the slightest. If you want to talk about the role that lack of ethics or lack of morality played in this mess, then that's a legitimate conversation to have. But moral relativism is still morality. This person seems to be suggesting that moral relativism isn't moral at all. It's morality in context, or with a qualifier. Just because it's not an absolute that disregards circumstances, doesn't negate it altogether. To me, this is just more evangelical agenda hogwash. Edited February 18, 2009 by billay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) I, like you, am on several daily emails of a variety of sorts. One of the ones I gets deals with a variety of Christian / ethics types of things. It seems that today's email (see below) puts a rather fine point on the cause of much of today's economic issues: ................................................. Ravi Zacharias, a renowned Christian apologist, spoke at a conference and recounted an intriguing story. A reporter from the New York Times called to get his perspective on the economic collapse, and specifically on the unethical behavior of many business executives. Ravi agreed to answer his questions if the reporter would answer one for him first. "Why is it that we train our future leaders throughout their school years that truth is relative;" Ravi asked, "that right and wrong depends upon their own personal beliefs, and then when they live and act accordingly, we want to put them in jail?" The reporter was stumped. If we desire to build ethical leaders we need to heed Jesus' words in Matthew 5:19, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." God's Word is absolute, not relative. Let's train others accordingly. ................................................. Thoughts? In order to even consider this, you must accept the Bible as absolute truth, which it is not. It is a collection of stories written by men in order to control others. So in essence, the versioning of the truth you so castigate in the beginning of you statement has it's biggest advocate in the very book you cite as the answer. Edited February 18, 2009 by cre8tiff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) the bible teaches you, besides other things, to be a good, upstanding person. who cares who wrote it or who said it. Edited February 18, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 the bible teaches you, besides other things, to be a good, upstanding person. who cares who wrote it or who said it. Seriously? I'll tell you who cares. People who don't want to have someone who's just a man tell them that these are the laws has handed down by the allmighty so follow them all or else. The bible also defines "good and upstanding" in very specific ways that may ore may not actually me accurate and cites a source that can't be confirmed as justification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) Seriously? I'll tell you who cares. People who don't want to have someone who's just a man tell them that these are the laws has handed down by the allmighty so follow them all or else. The bible also defines "good and upstanding" in very specific ways that may ore may not actually me accurate and cites a source that can't be confirmed as justification. so why do you let the method of the teaching affect the actual message? the overall message is to be a good person, no? who gives an f who teaches it or how they do it. believe i know where you are coming from. i was raised catholic and went to catholic institutions for my entire education. i hated the method but now can see thru all that crap and get the message to be a good person. Edited February 18, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 the bible teaches you, besides other things, to be a good, upstanding person. who cares who wrote it or who said it. Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Essentially the question is, "Given a set of choices, is there always a right and wrong choice to be made?" If you can honestly answer that in every circumstance the answer is black and white, there is ALWAYS a right and a wrong choice and that there are no shades of gray in between, then and only then could one entertain the notion that his point about the bible has merit as a discussion point. That however, is an entirely different kettle of fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) who isnt up for a good sacrificing every now and then? once again, the overall message is to be a good person. Edited February 18, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) who isnt up for a good sacrificing every now and then? once again, the overall message is to be a good person. Doesn't the phrase, the overall message, imply that there are parts you may want to skip but the gist of it all is thus? Doesn't that sort fly in the face of these are absolute facts and defying even the least of these or applying moral relativism is wrong? Edited February 18, 2009 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Doesn't the phrase, the overall message, imply that there are parts you may want to skip but the gist of it all is thus? Doesn't that sort fly in the face of these are absolute facts and defying even the least of these or applying moral relativism is forbidden? yes it does. i skip parts, i dont take it literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 yes it does. i skip parts, i dont take it literally. Well, I suppose that's what it comes down to. The rest of us "skip parts" as well. It's just that we also don't skip parts despite the fact that we don't read it. I, for instance, don't "skip the part" that says I shouldn't kill, steal, or bang the married woman next door. Maybe this is in part because so many before me went by the bible and many of these morals just sort of infiltrated the general notion of being a good person. Maybe people have always been wired this way and those who wrote the bible used these easily accepted morals as a nice jumping off point to lay a bunch of other rules down on people. In that respect, it's not unlike a rider on a bill. You start out with something that everyone can get down with and toss a few other things in to promote your agenda. As someone who feels the bible is of human construct and not handed down from above, this seems totally reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I've always believed you can teach right from wrong, even in the absence of God. That would certainly be the case if you are speaking in terms of "absolute truths", whatever those are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I think the #1 rule to follow is the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I think if everyone lived their lives like that, we'd all be in a better place right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 If the bible is such absolute truth, then why isn't there just one flavor of Christianity? Why are there hundreds of different sects with different beliefs and even a wide variety of teachings within each sect depending on who is doing the talking? I find this "absolute truth" to be a complete fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBalata Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ravi agreed to answer his questions if the reporter would answer one for him first. "Why is it that we train our future leaders throughout their school years that truth is relative;" Ravi asked, "that right and wrong depends upon their own personal beliefs, and then when they live and act accordingly, we want to put them in jail?" The reporter was stumped. ................................................. Thoughts? Ok....one of you guys that is smarter then me, help me out. Who/what exactly teaches our future leaders this? All the schools I went to taught that cheating, lying, stealing, killing was wrong. They have special schools that say it's ok to lie, cheat, steal? I understand that some people don't have a problem lying, stealing, or cheating...but now I find out they went to a school that taught this? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ok....one of you guys that is smarter then me, help me out. Who/what exactly teaches our future leaders this? All the schools I went to taught that cheating, lying, stealing, killing was wrong. They have special schools that say it's ok to lie, cheat, steal? I understand that some people don't have a problem lying, stealing, or cheating...but now I find out they went to a school that taught this? :confused: George W and Hillary both attended Yale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ok....one of you guys that is smarter then me, help me out. Who/what exactly teaches our future leaders this? All the schools I went to taught that cheating, lying, stealing, killing was wrong. They have special schools that say it's ok to lie, cheat, steal? I understand that some people don't have a problem lying, stealing, or cheating...but now I find out they went to a school that taught this? :confused: That was my point. Nobody is really being taught this. It's an attack on liberal intellectualism. Nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBalata Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 That was my point. Nobody is really being taught this. It's an attack on liberal intellectualism. Nothing more. That's what I thought. Just wanted clarification. So basically, this Ravi guy is just as much, or more, full of chit as the politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 once again, the overall message is to be a good person. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's not exactly accurate. The overall message isn't to be a good person (at least that's not the most important overall message). The overall message is that throughout the history of mankind, God has been calling us to have a loving and meaningful relationship with Him. We continue to fail to answer that call, but still God has given up everything for us in order to make it as easy as possible through his Son. The overall message is, come to me (no matter whether you're good or bad, no matter where you are in your life, here is the way, PLEASE come to me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 the bible teaches you, besides other things, to be a good, upstanding person. who cares who wrote it or who said it. according to whose set of standards? how can you define 'good"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheikYerbuti Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." God's Word is absolute, not relative. Let's train others accordingly. ................................................. Thoughts? I hope there's enough room in hell for all those Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Shintos, Atheists. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I understand what you're trying to say, but it's not exactly accurate. The overall message isn't to be a good person (at least that's not the most important overall message). The overall message is that throughout the history of mankind, God has been calling us to have a loving and meaningful relationship with Him. We continue to fail to answer that call, but still God has given up everything for us in order to make it as easy as possible through his Son. The overall message is, come to me (no matter whether you're good or bad, no matter where you are in your life, here is the way, PLEASE come to me). I always get a kick out of reading your posts while watching the loop of the guy pummeling the xerox machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 according to whose set of standards? how can you define 'good"? http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Actions_which...e_Old_Testament Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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