Exactly what they want

[Gopher]

Not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread at all but there was a Muslim community center in one of the towers. Muslims who had nothing to do with the massacre were killed as well.

 

I think the community center story is something that hits home for many of us. Does the idea of that happening make me all fuzzy and warm inside? Nope. Do I think it is another reason for people to bitch about something? Yup. Do I think it is very helpful to Fox News to fill air time? Yup.

 

As far as the Quran burning preacher?

He is an attention seeking whore. Simple as that. He got what he wanted lot's and lot's of attention.

Whether he ever intended to do it or not doesn't matter. Just getting the word out there that he was going to, created a stir both here and in the Muslim nations.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if we hear 6 months from now that this guy has been screwing hookers and goats on his congregations dime.

They charge for goats down there?

[untateve]

They charge for goats down there?

 

Yes. We charge a lot. More than you can afford, gopher boy.

[Rovers]

It's what you said.

 

Not what I said.

 

This is a war against a de-centralized enemy. Each soldier plays their part as they see it. At least one of the "people" funding this mosque have financially supported Hamas in the past. This isn't Bin-Laden or the terrorists that train in Muslim countries, I never said that, they are here to collapse this country from the inside out. They hide behind how we protect individual freedom. Any army has a support infrastucture, including subversive and espionage operations. The Muslims behind the mosque are here to create divisiveness taking advantage of the freedom garanteed by our consitution.

 

This is a weakness the terrorists have even talked about openly before the 9-11 attacks. I recall one of Bin-Ladens top men talk about this on might have been 60 Minutes prior to the 9-11 attacks. They were on their way to interview Bin-Laden and it took place in an automobile, I remember it vividly. They said our country so so open, it's easy to enter and attack from the inside. The way they attack isn't only through terrorist acts, it's across the board in any way they think will help defeat us infidels.

 

Yes, the mosque is a victory monument. Now, if Bin-Laden was here supervising it, that would not play very well, would it? So, they send others in for this sort of mission, and it is a mission. They want to set themselves up as victims. Like hiding behind children and shooting. Then blaming civilian casualties on their enemies.

 

This is a decentalized, devious enemy with no clear command and control system to attack. There are quite a few radical Muslim groups that don't even talk to each other, but have one common goal. Take us down, economically, morally and to destroy our freedoms including the right to peacefully parctice our chosen religions or not.

 

You don't get the idealism they have. It is a lot like communism was, something Reagan understood. Our mere existance is cannot co-exist with their ideaology. Do you understand that? They have to convert or kill the infidels. It's in their holy book. Black and white. Read much?

[detlef]

Not what I said.

 

This is a war against a de-centralized enemy. Each soldier plays their part as they see it. At least one of the "people" funding this mosque have financially supported Hamas in the past. This isn't Bin-Laden or the terrorists that train in Muslim countries, I never said that, they are here to collapse this country from the inside out. They hide behind how we protect individual freedom. Any army has a support infrastucture, including subversive and espionage operations. The Muslims behind the mosque are here to create divisiveness taking advantage of the freedom garanteed by our consitution.

 

This is a weakness the terrorists have even talked about openly before the 9-11 attacks. I recall one of Bin-Ladens top men talk about this on might have been 60 Minutes prior to the 9-11 attacks. They were on their way to interview Bin-Laden and it took place in an automobile, I remember it vividly. They said our country so so open, it's easy to enter and attack from the inside. The way they attack isn't only through terrorist acts, it's across the board in any way they think will help defeat us infidels.

 

Yes, the mosque is a victory monument. Now, if Bin-Laden was here supervising it, that would not play very well, would it? So, they send others in for this sort of mission, and it is a mission. They want to set themselves up as victims. Like hiding behind children and shooting. Then blaming civilian casualties on their enemies.

 

This is a decentalized, devious enemy with no clear command and control system to attack. There are quite a few radical Muslim groups that don't even talk to each other, but have one common goal. Take us down, economically, morally and to destroy our freedoms including the right to peacefully parctice our chosen religions or not.

 

You don't get the idealism they have. It is a lot like communism was, something Reagan understood. Our mere existance is cannot co-exist with their ideaology. Do you understand that? They have to convert or kill the infidels. It's in their holy book. Black and white. Read much?

And you know all this how?

[tosberg34]

Not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread at all but there was a Muslim community center in one of the towers. Muslims who had nothing to do with the massacre were killed as well.

 

I think the community center story is something that hits home for many of us. Does the idea of that happening make me all fuzzy and warm inside? Nope. Do I think it is another reason for people to bitch about something? Yup. Do I think it is very helpful to Fox News to fill air time? Yup.

 

As far as the Quran burning preacher?

He is an attention seeking whore. Simple as that. He got what he wanted lot's and lot's of attention.

Whether he ever intended to do it or not doesn't matter. Just getting the word out there that he was going to, created a stir both here and in the Muslim nations.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if we hear 6 months from now that this guy has been screwing hookers and goats on his congregations dime.

 

This is where I have a problem with comments like this. You completely ignore the fact that the OTHER lefty, mainstream media blew the story waayyy out of proportion (and gave legs to the story) as well to fill their air time up. You think if two dudes in back-ass Alabama decided to burn Korans it would have been the media sensation it has been? No, of course not. But because it was some Christian it made the headlines of all the lefty media so they can say, "See? All Christians are kooks". So before you go off on Fox News you might want to take a step back and level some of that vitriol at CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc... for being just as unbalanced as you accuse Fox of being.

 

You make fun of Fox's "Fair and Balanced" slogan but if you're going to criticize them then YOU need to be damn sure not you're EXACTLY what you accuse Fox of being.

 

That's all. Thank-you.

[tosberg34]

And you know all this how?

 

Mainly because he has his eyes open and is able to see the situation for what it is. He's not drinking the Kool-Aid, holding hands, singing Kum-bay-ah and pretending there really are no bad guys (just misunderstood, that's all) in the world .

[Gopher]

Yes. We charge a lot. More than you can afford, gopher boy.

Pretty sure your going rate is well out of my "price range."

[Pope Flick]

Not what I said.

 

This is a war against a de-centralized enemy. Each soldier plays their part as they see it. At least one of the "people" funding this mosque have financially supported Hamas in the past. This isn't Bin-Laden or the terrorists that train in Muslim countries, I never said that, they are here to collapse this country from the inside out. They hide behind how we protect individual freedom. Any army has a support infrastucture, including subversive and espionage operations. The Muslims behind the mosque are here to create divisiveness taking advantage of the freedom garanteed by our consitution.

 

This is a weakness the terrorists have even talked about openly before the 9-11 attacks. I recall one of Bin-Ladens top men talk about this on might have been 60 Minutes prior to the 9-11 attacks. They were on their way to interview Bin-Laden and it took place in an automobile, I remember it vividly. They said our country so so open, it's easy to enter and attack from the inside. The way they attack isn't only through terrorist acts, it's across the board in any way they think will help defeat us infidels.

 

Yes, the mosque is a victory monument. Now, if Bin-Laden was here supervising it, that would not play very well, would it? So, they send others in for this sort of mission, and it is a mission. They want to set themselves up as victims. Like hiding behind children and shooting. Then blaming civilian casualties on their enemies.

 

This is a decentalized, devious enemy with no clear command and control system to attack. There are quite a few radical Muslim groups that don't even talk to each other, but have one common goal. Take us down, economically, morally and to destroy our freedoms including the right to peacefully parctice our chosen religions or not.

 

You don't get the idealism they have. It is a lot like communism was, something Reagan understood. Our mere existance is cannot co-exist with their ideaology. Do you understand that? They have to convert or kill the infidels. It's in their holy book. Black and white. Read much?

 

I know there's a lot of crap in both the Bible and Quran. Some of it is used by people to play to the masses. Because it's used selectively it is not nearly as black and white as you would like it to be. Your post is garbage, pure and simple.

 

Our mere existence cannot co-exist with those living in caves, willing to strap bombs onto themselves to blow themselves up or maim women and children. Those people are not building this mosque so get over it.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Our mere existence cannot co-exist with those living in caves, willing to strap bombs onto themselves to blow themselves up or maim women and children. Those people are not building this mosque so get over it.

and u know this how??

[tbimm]

This is where I have a problem with comments like this. You completely ignore the fact that the OTHER lefty, mainstream media blew the story waayyy out of proportion (and gave legs to the story) as well to fill their air time up. You think if two dudes in back-ass Alabama decided to burn Korans it would have been the media sensation it has been? No, of course not. But because it was some Christian it made the headlines of all the lefty media so they can say, "See? All Christians are kooks". So before you go off on Fox News you might want to take a step back and level some of that vitriol at CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc... for being just as unbalanced as you accuse Fox of being.

 

You make fun of Fox's "Fair and Balanced" slogan but if you're going to criticize them then YOU need to be damn sure not you're EXACTLY what you accuse Fox of being.

 

That's all. Thank-you.

2 separate news stories and you appear to have them mixed up. Please read what I typed again and then go on the attack with proper info.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Looking at my post again I think I even gave you a head start on this one by putting a big space between the 2 stories and you still got it wrong?

Edited September 14, 2010 by tbimm

[tosberg34]

2 separate news stories and you appear to have them mixed up. Please read what I typed again and then go on the attack with proper info.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Looking at my post again I think I even gave you a head start on this one by putting a big space between the 2 stories and you still got it wrong?

 

I did read your post. That's my point. You've completely ignored the other side. You accuse Fox of flaming the mosque story yet completely ignore the lefty media's fanning-of-the-flames of the Koran-burning pastor story (after you, yourself take potshots at him as well). What don't you get?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited September 14, 2010 by tosberg34

[tbimm]

I did read your post. That's my point. You've completely ignored the other side. You accuse Fox of flaming the mosque story yet completely ignore the lefty media's fanning-of-the-flames of the Koran-burning pastor story (after you, yourself take potshots at him as well). What don't you get?

 

Thanks in advance.

Not sure why you can't see that without the media the nutjob pastor doesn't get the attention at all? He found his audience through the media and it was across the board.

 

As far as accusing Fox of anything??? Man they don't need me to prove they are divisive and inciting in just about everything they report on.

You need me to say something bad about another news source?? No problem. I have quit watching CNN because it has become the National Enquirer. Worthless as far as really knowing whats going on.

 

Here is an interesting snippet on the beloved pastor from our local news.

[Duchess Jack]

No, of course not. But because it was some Christian it made the headlines of all the lefty media so they can say, "See? All Christians are kooks".

That's all. Thank-you.

So are you trying to say that the 'left wing' media was trying to use this nutbag to paint ALL Christians as nutbags. Are you saying that they were making this guy into your average Christian and applying that image to all Christians? Because I am Christian and while I do feel this guy made my faith and country look bad (with the help of ALL news outlets) I cannot say that I felt that any news channels were attacking me as a Christian

[cre8tiff]

So are you trying to say that the 'left wing' media was trying to use this nutbag to paint ALL Christians as nutbags. Are you saying that they were making this guy into your average Christian and applying that image to all Christians? Because I am Christian and while I do feel this guy made my faith and country look bad (with the help of ALL news outlets) I cannot say that I felt that any news channels were attacking me as a Christian

 

That's because you don't consider yourself a poor, helpless victim.

[SEC=UGA]

100% Wrong. A demonstration of religious tolerance (building the mosque) is diametrically opposed to a demonstration of religious intolerance (burning the Quran). It is just that simple.

 

Where's the outrage at Catholic Churches being built near elementary schools?

 

Thank you for the assessment. How is the building of the community center a display of tolerance? Especially when they can see that this action has become extremely divisive and has upset MANY people? Could you not view it in the manner that their building this center is actually a display of religious intolerance by their forcing an unwanted religious establishment upon the people of the US. Much the same way that the Qur'an burning nut job was threatening to do his act despite an overwhelming amount of negative feelings.

 

Wouldn't religious tolerance entail either the public not being outraged by either of these actions or by the two actors not going forth with their plans?

[detlef]

Thank you for the assessment. How is the building of the community center a display of tolerance? Especially when they can see that this action has become extremely divisive and has upset MANY people? Could you not view it in the manner that their building this center is actually a display of religious intolerance by their forcing an unwanted religious establishment upon the people of the US. Much the same way that the Qur'an burning nut job was threatening to do his act despite an overwhelming amount of negative feelings.

 

Wouldn't religious tolerance entail either the public not being outraged by either of these actions or by the two actors not going forth with their plans?

According to the imam, the reason for the location is because they have lived and peacefully practiced their faith in that neighborhood for nearly 30 years.

 

But, why not build it a little bit farther away? Let’s say a mile away?

No one should be driven out of his or her own neighborhood – especially for religious reasons. It is unconstitutional and un-American. Our congregation has been peacefully worshipping in this area for almost three decades. Our neighbors have encouraged us to remain here, and the City and the Community Board have encouraged our continued presence here. The community has backed up their support by approving every resolution and challenge in the community center’s favor

 

Here's the link and it answers other questions as well.

[Azazello1313]

I think you have touched upon one of the most virulent and, IMO, dangerous aspects of modern society - everybody seems to want to feel offended and if they don't, they're willing to push the boundaries of what offends them until they are suitably offended.

 

Whatever happened to live and let live, thick skins, etc? I mean, what the frack is wrong with people that they always have be victims of something?

 

speaking of which, I thought we'd pretty much agreed that everyone here felt more or less the same way about this stupid mosque -- that of course they have a right to build it, but that doing so seems to be in pretty poor taste. and yet here we go again with all the phony "outrage" at the tea partiers who are supposedly burning korans because of phony "outrage" about the stupid mosque. what a friggin joke all around

[driveby]

The Road to Wahhabism

[detlef]

speaking of which, I thought we'd pretty much agreed that everyone here felt more or less the same way about this stupid mosque -- that of course they have a right to build it, but that doing so seems to be in pretty poor taste. and yet here we go again with all the phony "outrage" at the tea partiers who are supposedly burning korans because of phony "outrage" about the stupid mosque. what a friggin joke all around

Well, speaking for myself at least, my initial concern with the "mosque" had much to do with not actually understanding what was being built. Further, the fact that the right has attempted to compare this to the book burning also soured me to their stance. That and the blatant misrepresentation of what what was going on. Well, that and the fact that more and more seem to simply be anti-Muslim and, while insisting that they do not mean to imply that the guys building this thing have anything to do with the 9/11 attackers, well, basically implying that these guys have something to do with the 9/11 attackers. And that's freaking lame.

 

Frankly, all along, my opinion was essentially, "I suppose I can see why someone would be insulted by this." And now, while I still understand why someone could be insulted, I just don't see how someone reasonable could.

 

So, my opinion has changed somewhat.

[SEC=UGA]

Well, speaking for myself at least, my initial concern with the "mosque" had much to do with not actually understanding what was being built. Further, the fact that the right has attempted to compare this to the book burning also soured me to their stance. That and the blatant misrepresentation of what what was going on. Well, that and the fact that more and more seem to simply be anti-Muslim and, while insisting that they do not mean to imply that the guys building this thing have anything to do with the 9/11 attackers, well, basically implying that these guys have something to do with the 9/11 attackers. And that's freaking lame.

 

Frankly, all along, my opinion was essentially, "I suppose I can see why someone would be insulted by this." And now, while I still understand why someone could be insulted, I just don't see how someone reasonable could.

 

So, my opinion has changed somewhat.

 

Let me start with this, I have always thought of you to be a free thinker and a good, thoughtful, contributor here (with a left leaning bent, of course) and I may be very wrong with what I am about to write... But it is just conjecture and maybe some food for thought.

 

From reading this post it seems to me that you may be rejecting the notion that there could be validity to the complaints surrounding Park 51 due to the fact that the right is so rabidly against it and you don't want to see your opinion lining up with theirs. You see the people that are protesting this as "unreasonable" (not necessarily in this instance, maybe, but in the balance of their ideology) and you, nor, any of us for that matter, would want to ally ourselves with people whom we believe to be generally unreasonable in most of the stances that they take. So are you divorcing yourself from your initial feelings due to the fact that you pelieve you now have more info or are you divorcing yourself from your initial feelings due to who it seems is lining up against Park 51?

 

You do explain that you feel that you didn't imitially have the full story, and quite frankly most did not, due to the development being described (or derided) as a mosque. So, I'm guessing, that an Islamic community center, with a prayer space (mosque) in it is completely different than a stand alone mosque (I haven't even really looked at it from that perspective until just now)?

[Azazello1313]

Well, speaking for myself at least, my initial concern with the "mosque" had much to do with not actually understanding what was being built. Further, the fact that the right has attempted to compare this to the book burning also soured me to their stance. That and the blatant misrepresentation of what what was going on. Well, that and the fact that more and more seem to simply be anti-Muslim and, while insisting that they do not mean to imply that the guys building this thing have anything to do with the 9/11 attackers, well, basically implying that these guys have something to do with the 9/11 attackers. And that's freaking lame.

 

Frankly, all along, my opinion was essentially, "I suppose I can see why someone would be insulted by this." And now, while I still understand why someone could be insulted, I just don't see how someone reasonable could.

 

So, my opinion has changed somewhat.

 

in other words, you're just convinced that the teabagger koran burners must be completely wrong, whatever their position, and therefore you are intent on characterizing that position as simplistically stupid and intolerant a strawman as possible.

[Ursa Majoris]

speaking of which, I thought we'd pretty much agreed that everyone here felt more or less the same way about this stupid mosque -- that of course they have a right to build it, but that doing so seems to be in pretty poor taste. and yet here we go again with all the phony "outrage" at the tea partiers who are supposedly burning korans because of phony "outrage" about the stupid mosque. what a friggin joke all around

I wasn't aiming specifically at the mosque or anything else, just generally pointing out that everybody seems to be in need of being offended these days. This applies to pretty much every minority group and even to the majority - everybody seems to have "hurt feelings" over something. It's a phenomenon.

[SEC=UGA]

I wasn't aiming specifically at the mosque or anything else, just generally pointing out that everybody seems to be in need of being offended these days. This applies to pretty much every minority group and even to the majority - everybody seems to have "hurt feelings" over something. It's a phenomenon.

 

It's en vogue and curse on this society... well, that and the entitlement attitude, but I guess they are pretty much one in the same.

[detlef]

Let me start with this, I have always thought of you to be a free thinker and a good, thoughtful, contributor here (with a left leaning bent, of course) and I may be very wrong with what I am about to write... But it is just conjecture and maybe some food for thought.

 

From reading this post it seems to me that you may be rejecting the notion that there could be validity to the complaints surrounding Park 51 due to the fact that the right is so rabidly against it and you don't want to see your opinion lining up with theirs. You see the people that are protesting this as "unreasonable" (not necessarily in this instance, maybe, but in the balance of their ideology) and you, nor, any of us for that matter, would want to ally ourselves with people whom we believe to be generally unreasonable in most of the stances that they take. So are you divorcing yourself from your initial feelings due to the fact that you pelieve you now have more info or are you divorcing yourself from your initial feelings due to who it seems is lining up against Park 51?

 

You do explain that you feel that you didn't imitially have the full story, and quite frankly most did not, due to the development being described (or derided) as a mosque. So, I'm guessing, that an Islamic community center, with a prayer space (mosque) in it is completely different than a stand alone mosque (I haven't even really looked at it from that perspective until just now)?

It's a bit of both. Mostly, it comes down to, the more I learn about the project itself, the more I realize that it's simply not a big deal. That these guys are not looking to put a Muslim trophy at ground zero but simply a community center in a neighborhood they've lived and worshiped in for 30 years. In that blog I linked to, he mentioned that Christians have the YMCA, Jews have The "Y" (upper westside) but there is no such place for Muslims. That the guy starting the place is a respected moderate and has been essentially a political asset to the US for some time. That makes up the vast majority of my change of heart.

 

That I've become increasingly annoyed by the grandstanding and purposeful exaggeration has merely helped me along.

 

As to your second question. It does seem different. One, the Cordoba Institute maintains it is an interfaith program and that no more than 50% of it's board members can be of one religion. Obviously there's a Muslim slant and, no coincidence, that means that exactly 50% of the board is Muslim. It is a 15 floor facility with a basketball court, pool (I think) and other activity centers. According to the blog I linked earlier, there will be a prayer room on one of the 15 floors. So, I'm thinking more and more that it will, in fact, be very much like the Y or the YMCA. Two places who's religious affiliation is so downplayed that you actually have to make a point of looking for it. None the less, do yourself a favor and read that Q&A. Sure, it's that guy's words. But "that guy" has a pretty long track record of being an ambassador for the American way, so maybe we should take his word on it.

[SEC=UGA]

It's a bit of both. Mostly, it comes down to, the more I learn about the project itself, the more I realize that it's simply not a big deal. That these guys are not looking to put a Muslim trophy at ground zero but simply a community center in a neighborhood they've lived and worshiped in for 30 years. In that blog I linked to, he mentioned that Christians have the YMCA, Jews have The "Y" (upper westside) but there is no such place for Muslims. That the guy starting the place is a respected moderate and has been essentially a political asset to the US for some time. That makes up the vast majority of my change of heart.

 

That I've become increasingly annoyed by the grandstanding and purposeful exaggeration has merely helped me along.

 

As to your second question. It does seem different. One, the Cordoba Institute maintains it is an interfaith program and that no more than 50% of it's board members can be of one religion. Obviously there's a Muslim slant and, no coincidence, that means that exactly 50% of the board is Muslim. It is a 15 floor facility with a basketball court, pool (I think) and other activity centers. According to the blog I linked earlier, there will be a prayer room on one of the 15 floors. So, I'm thinking more and more that it will, in fact, be very much like the Y or the YMCA. Two places who's religious affiliation is so downplayed that you actually have to make a point of looking for it. None the less, do yourself a favor and read that Q&A. Sure, it's that guy's words. But "that guy" has a pretty long track record of being an ambassador for the American way, so maybe we should take his word on it.

 

Understood.

 

Now, given your recent boycott of the NFL due to the public financing, tax incentives, etc... How do you feel about this:

(Reuters) - The Muslim center planned near the site of the World Trade Center attack could qualify for tax-free financing, a spokesman for City Comptroller John Liu said on Friday, and Liu is willing to consider approving the public subsidy.

 

ETA:

 

and yes I know other nonprofit organizations receive this benefit.

 

ETA 2: From their website... seems interestingly contradictory:

Park51 is the name of the planned Muslim community center being built in lower Manhattan. Park51 is also the name of the nonprofit entity that has already been established, which will fund and oversee this initiative. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf will be the spiritual leader of the Cordoba House which will be the interfaith and religious component of the center and will reside within Park51.”

 

About Park51: Park51 is a nonsectarian community, cultural and interfaith spiritual center along with a Muslim prayer area

Edited September 14, 2010 by SEC=UGA