Judge Rules Health Care Law Is Unconstitutional

[tosberg34]

The slogan is Repeal and Replace. We both know they aren't going to replace it with anything. They are going to do nothing, as usual.

 

You very well could be right and I understand why you're so pessimistic. However, I feel that they (the Rs) get it this time. I think between the over-reaching behavior of the Democratically controlled Congress over the last two years and the Tea Party it just might have made a difference.

[bpwallace49]

You very well could be right and I understand why you're so pessimistic. However, I feel that they (the Rs) get it this time. I think between the over-reaching behavior of the Democratically controlled Congress over the last two years and the Tea Party it just might have made a difference.

 

What indicators show this?

[Ursa Majoris]

What indicators show this?

This is what I would like to know as well. Having gotten put back into power on the wave of "do something about the economy and jobs, oh and fix the debt / deficit problem too" they've reverted to type already, trundling out abortion and gun bills. Great.

[tosberg34]

This is what I would like to know as well. Having gotten put back into power on the wave of "do something about the economy and jobs, oh and fix the debt / deficit problem too" they've reverted to type already, trundling out abortion and gun bills. Great.

 

It's been less than 30 days since they got in. Relax.

[bpwallace49]

It's been less than 30 days since they got in. Relax.

 

So you are saying that during the whole health care mess, they never worked on any health care plans to roll out to "replace" what was passed? So you are saying they decided to start thinking about a plan now? So there really is NO plan at all? I thought they had all these really really awesome ideas but . . .gosh darn it . . . no one would LISTEN to all these awesome ideas!

 

 

I would love to see a plan. i really really would. But I severely doubt one is forthcoming.

[tosberg34]

So you are saying that during the whole health care mess, they never worked on any health care plans to roll out to "replace" what was passed? So you are saying they decided to start thinking about a plan now? So there really is NO plan at all? I thought they had all these really really awesome ideas but . . .gosh darn it . . . no one would LISTEN to all these awesome ideas!

 

 

I would love to see a plan. i really really would. But I severely doubt one is forthcoming.

 

Chill out, dude! I'm working on it. I'm writing as fast as I can.

[bpwallace49]

Chill out, dude! I'm working on it. I'm writing as fast as I can.

 

Quick! Someone bring him another box of crayons! Stat!!!!

[tosberg34]

Quick! Someone bring him another box of crayons! Stat!!!!

 

Nah, that's okay. I'm using the same set the the Dems used to write ObamaCare in.

 

Sample Colors:

 

Pork Blue

Union Green

Welfare White

Pass-It-Before-You-Read-It Red

Commerce Clause Cyan

Edited February 2, 2011 by tosberg34

[SEC=UGA]

This is what I would like to know as well. Having gotten put back into power on the wave of "do something about the economy and jobs, oh and fix the debt / deficit problem too" they've reverted to type already, trundling out abortion and gun bills. Great.

 

Well, for one, they launched a proposal for budget cuts, but you guys roundly criticized it. They have forced the senate to vote on the HC bill and specifically the part that requires business to send tax forms to every vendor from whom they purchased 600 dollars of goods. They pressured Obama to extend the tax cuts.

 

Now, if they could only lower the corporate tax rate we'd be off to a good start.

[gbpfan1231]

It's been less than 30 days since they got in. Relax.

I seem to recall these same people saying that we had to give Obama more than 2 years to do something.

[caddyman]

I seem to recall these same people saying that we had to give Obama more than 2 years to do something.

Really? I forgot about that. Now that we can use the phrase" the mess was worse than we thought" we should certainly get more than 30 days to fix things. But then again, that kind of horse shiat excuse did not serve the libs well.

[Duchess Jack]

I agree - 30 days is too early, but it really sounded like the GOP had their own plans on the table when the health care bill was first rolled out. I would like to see that as a place to start.

[redrumjuice]

30 days is too early

 

They've already voted in the house, passed OVERWHELMINGLY, now its the senates turn, but for some reason, Reid won't let them vote.

[Ursa Majoris]

I agree - 30 days is too early, but it really sounded like the GOP had their own plans on the table when the health care bill was first rolled out. I would like to see that as a place to start.

I don't know that anyone really asked that question. They'd have needed a bullhorn to get over the sheer volume from the Republican shills. I did ask the Republican candidate for Ellison's district here in Minnesota what the Republican plans were for health care, social security and medicare. All I got was a blank look and mumbling. He had no idea whatsoever, most likely because there is no plan, not for anything. Much easier to just scream and shout.

[Caveman_Nick]

I don't know that anyone really asked that question. They'd have needed a bullhorn to get over the sheer volume from the Republican shills. I did ask the Republican candidate for Ellison's district here in Minnesota what the Republican plans were for health care, social security and medicare. All I got was a blank look and mumbling. He had no idea whatsoever, most likely because there is no plan, not for anything. Much easier to just scream and shout.

 

 

Gawd, you are so biased that you are ruined. Was it the republican shills making all the noise, or the democrats crying nonsensically over something Rush said.

 

They ALL do nothing but make noise. I want them all to GUMMI BEAR and start a) passing laws that make sense or not passing laws that don't make sense or aren't understood by the people passing them

 

If WE stood together and demanded that instead of the constant name calling that most of the people I know (here and elsewhere) spend most of their time engaging in then perhaps some progress would be made.

 

I am starting to blame the politicians less and the people more, because the more time goes by the more I see that the politicians are just a reflection of the people voting for them.

[Ursa Majoris]

Gawd, you are so biased that you are ruined.

Am I? I did take the trouble to ask a real Republican Congressional candidate about his and his party's positions on some of the most important issues of the day. Given the non-response, what else am I to think other than the conclusion I came to i.e. there is no plan, no ideas and no thought beyond destruction? I will concede that the Republican Ryan has published a thoughtful and far-reaching plan, most of which I could support but his party has completely cold-shouldered it.

[Perchoutofwater]

I believe the judge got it right, and the bill is unconstitutional. I do not believe the government has the right to regulate inactivity via the commerce clause. Some of you have brought up some very good points as to why we need a mandate, but if it is not allowed by the constitution, then it is not allowed, and regardless of how much good may come of it, unless you change the constitution in proper way then it is not legal. That is just my opinion, and I know that everyone has one. I'm so tired of politicians on both sides of the isle enacting legislation that the more than likely know doesn't pass the constitutional mustard, but do so in the hopes that it never gets challenged, or that the courts will give them a break when it does.

 

The current health care law in an abomination. Even if it isn't replaced with something, repealing it is still better than letting it stand. The bill has made health care costs go up, has increased the burden on employers as well as on the states. It may save the federal government some money (though that is questionable, see original projections for medicare and SS spending vs where we are today), but it redistributes that cost to the states and the responsible individuals. Maybe had the dems not tried to ram it through so fast and actually invited the Repubs to the table to discuss it, we would have ended up with something that might have made things better, then again we might not have, but we will never know. The bill, and the manner in which it was passed were terrible.

 

Do we need health care reform? Yes! Is what was passed better than what we had before? Hell No! Ursa and others have claimed that the GOP offered nothing, but didn't Paul Ryan offer up a proposal? Of course this and the other 5 or so proposals are largely ignored by liberals like Ursa. It's just like the spending cuts the GOP proposed. They didn't like the proposals or who they came from so they will ignore them or try to marginalize them. I'll be honest I didn't look into the GOP plans in any detail, so I couldn't tell you if they are better than the Obamanation that was passed. The main reason I didn't look at them was it was apparent that the Dems were going to ram whatever they wanted to through congress, regardless of how many bribes it took, and weren't going to allow the GOP a seat at the table.

 

We should repeal this bill, though if the SC has any sense they will deem it unconstitutional. I know that many liberals even questioned the constitutionality of it, but where hoping that it would take so long to get to the court the court would decide that it would do more harm than good to follow the constitution, as by that time many thought that most of it would be activated.

 

If this bill is a good bill, why is Obama giving over 700 waivers to different organizations? Why are they needed? Why just give them to those that are politically active like unions and large corporations? Why not give a blanket waiver to all until they can get the bill amended where it makes sense? I find it hard to believe that anyone that puts rational thought ahead of partisan politics can stand in favor of this bill based not only on the shady way it was passed, but the additional cost to employers, states, and individuals, not to mention the constitutional questions it raises.

 

It is legitimate to say the GOP hasn't done enough in the past. Of course even when the bill was first being pushed by the Dems over 80% of the population was happy with their coverage. The health care crisis was largely a political and media made crisis. Yes there were some that fell through the cracks, an no system is going to be perfect, but the vast majority were happy with their coverage. Should the GOP have started working on health care earlier? Yes they should have, and criticizing them for it is legitimate to a point, though not to the extent some here are doing. Should the health care bill that was passed been passed? No it shouldn't have been. Look at it, are most people better off because of it passing than they were before it passed? No. Is it really going to save money? It might and that is a big might save the federal government some money, but it is going to cost the States, employers, and individuals more. So in short we have a bill that is no better than what we had to begin with, that cost more than what we had to begin with, and that if most looked at it would say it is unconstitutional based on as strict reading of said document.

 

I'd love to see repeal and replace. I'd love to see this also be tied into a good immigration policy, as the cost health care for illegals in some areas is astronomical. I'd like to see medical malpractice reformed where punitive damages are done away with, or where the punitive award doesn't go to the lawyers or the victim, but rather to a pool to help fund medical care for the destitute. I'd like to see Medicare and Medicaid streamlined. I'd love to see insurance being available across state lines. I'd love to see the link between the employer be broken. I'd rather see reforms that make people more responsible about their health care choices. I'd like to see insurance turned back into Major Medical Insurance instead of a $30 doctors visit and $2 generic drugs. If his were to happen it would be much more market based as people would not be going to the doctor every time they got a sniffle and demand would decrease thus the cost would decrease. These are just a few of the things the GOP has proposed that Ursa and his buddies seem to forget about. I'd love to see repeal and replace, but even if we drop the replace, repeal by itself is better than crap they passed.

[Caveman_Nick]

Am I? I did take the trouble to ask a real Republican Congressional candidate about his and his party's positions on some of the most important issues of the day. Given the non-response, what else am I to think other than the conclusion I came to i.e. there is no plan, no ideas and no thought beyond destruction? I will concede that the Republican Ryan has published a thoughtful and far-reaching plan, most of which I could support but his party has completely cold-shouldered it.

 

Yes, you are.

 

As are all the people that whine incessantly about what "the other side" is doing. Your side is doing much of the same stuff. If you held your own side accountable for what they did and they held their side accountable for that those people did then much of this mess wouldn't be.

 

While I tend to dislike the policies of the Democrats to a slightly greater degree than those of the Republicans, both parties are generally useless to me. No...they are generally useless in general.

 

Congress has become the Jerry Springer show, and people just can't stop watching the train wreck. Perhaps there are a few that are not in the studio audience (see your comment on Ryan), but most are than those that aren't can barely be heard in the din.

 

I have some local politicians that I have corresponded with on both sides of the isle that have been attentive to my communications. I find that party nonsense on the local level is much, much less extreme than it is on the federal level. That does not make much of the nonsense that goes on in my state more palatable, but it's done with much less shouting and name calling, and much greater public support. I'm okay with it even if it's not what I would choose, because that's just the way life is.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Caveman_Nick

[bpwallace49]

I believe the judge got it right, and the bill is unconstitutional. I do not believe the government has the right to regulate inactivity via the commerce clause. Some of you have brought up some very good points as to why we need a mandate, but if it is not allowed by the constitution, then it is not allowed, and regardless of how much good may come of it, unless you change the constitution in proper way then it is not legal. That is just my opinion, and I know that everyone has one. I'm so tired of politicians on both sides of the isle enacting legislation that the more than likely know doesn't pass the constitutional mustard, but do so in the hopes that it never gets challenged, or that the courts will give them a break when it does.

 

The current health care law in an abomination. Even if it isn't replaced with something, repealing it is still better than letting it stand. The bill has made health care costs go up, has increased the burden on employers as well as on the states. It may save the federal government some money (though that is questionable, see original projections for medicare and SS spending vs where we are today), but it redistributes that cost to the states and the responsible individuals. Maybe had the dems not tried to ram it through so fast and actually invited the Repubs to the table to discuss it, we would have ended up with something that might have made things better, then again we might not have, but we will never know. The bill, and the manner in which it was passed were terrible.

 

Do we need health care reform? Yes! Is what was passed better than what we had before? Hell No! Ursa and others have claimed that the GOP offered nothing, but didn't Paul Ryan offer up a proposal? Of course this and the other 5 or so proposals are largely ignored by liberals like Ursa. It's just like the spending cuts the GOP proposed. They didn't like the proposals or who they came from so they will ignore them or try to marginalize them. I'll be honest I didn't look into the GOP plans in any detail, so I couldn't tell you if they are better than the Obamanation that was passed. The main reason I didn't look at them was it was apparent that the Dems were going to ram whatever they wanted to through congress, regardless of how many bribes it took, and weren't going to allow the GOP a seat at the table.

 

We should repeal this bill, though if the SC has any sense they will deem it unconstitutional. I know that many liberals even questioned the constitutionality of it, but where hoping that it would take so long to get to the court the court would decide that it would do more harm than good to follow the constitution, as by that time many thought that most of it would be activated.

 

If this bill is a good bill, why is Obama giving over 700 waivers to different organizations? Why are they needed? Why just give them to those that are politically active like unions and large corporations? Why not give a blanket waiver to all until they can get the bill amended where it makes sense? I find it hard to believe that anyone that puts rational thought ahead of partisan politics can stand in favor of this bill based not only on the shady way it was passed, but the additional cost to employers, states, and individuals, not to mention the constitutional questions it raises.

 

It is legitimate to say the GOP hasn't done enough in the past. Of course even when the bill was first being pushed by the Dems over 80% of the population was happy with their coverage. The health care crisis was largely a political and media made crisis. Yes there were some that fell through the cracks, an no system is going to be perfect, but the vast majority were happy with their coverage. Should the GOP have started working on health care earlier? Yes they should have, and criticizing them for it is legitimate to a point, though not to the extent some here are doing. Should the health care bill that was passed been passed? No it shouldn't have been. Look at it, are most people better off because of it passing than they were before it passed? No. Is it really going to save money? It might and that is a big might save the federal government some money, but it is going to cost the States, employers, and individuals more. So in short we have a bill that is no better than what we had to begin with, that cost more than what we had to begin with, and that if most looked at it would say it is unconstitutional based on as strict reading of said document.

 

I'd love to see repeal and replace. I'd love to see this also be tied into a good immigration policy, as the cost health care for illegals in some areas is astronomical. I'd like to see medical malpractice reformed where punitive damages are done away with, or where the punitive award doesn't go to the lawyers or the victim, but rather to a pool to help fund medical care for the destitute. I'd like to see Medicare and Medicaid streamlined. I'd love to see insurance being available across state lines. I'd love to see the link between the employer be broken. I'd rather see reforms that make people more responsible about their health care choices. I'd like to see insurance turned back into Major Medical Insurance instead of a $30 doctors visit and $2 generic drugs. If his were to happen it would be much more market based as people would not be going to the doctor every time they got a sniffle and demand would decrease thus the cost would decrease. These are just a few of the things the GOP has proposed that Ursa and his buddies seem to forget about. I'd love to see repeal and replace, but even if we drop the replace, repeal by itself is better than crap they passed.

 

A mixture of decent ideas and republican chain emails. I love when you show up Perch, I really do.

 

My company's health care has not only NOT risen, it just DEcreased by 12%. So your "it has made health care prices rise" has not been experienced by my company at all.

[Perchoutofwater]

A mixture of decent ideas and republican chain emails. I love when you show up Perch, I really do.

 

My company's health care has not only NOT risen, it just DEcreased by 12%. So your "it has made health care prices rise" has not been experienced by my company at all.

 

And I love it when you try to be dismissive rather than argue the points of an argument.

 

If your premiums have decreased you are definitely in the minority. Did your coverage or deductible change? If not, who is your carrier?

[untateve]

They ALL do nothing but make noise. I want them all to GUMMI BEAR and start a) passing laws that make sense or not passing laws that don't make sense or aren't understood by the people passing them

 

If WE stood together and demanded that instead of the constant name calling that most of the people I know (here and elsewhere) spend most of their time engaging in then perhaps some progress would be made.

 

I am starting to blame the politicians less and the people more, because the more time goes by the more I see that the politicians are just a reflection of the people voting for them.

 

And yet, when most go to the polls, they vote for the 'lesser of two evils' and then complain when nothing changes.

[Caveman_Nick]

And yet, when most go to the polls, they vote for the 'lesser of two evils' and then complain when nothing changes.

yep.

[yo mama]

I believe the judge got it right, and the bill is unconstitutional. I do not believe the government has the right to regulate inactivity via the commerce clause.

Most modern legal scholars disagree with you. But that begs the question of whether modern jurisprudence has strayed too far from its origins.

 

Read and learn. Regardless of what you believe, you'll find some support for your opinion, plus an overall greater understanding of the nuanced contours of this issue.

Edited February 2, 2011 by yo mama

[bpwallace49]

And I love it when you try to be dismissive rather than argue the points of an argument.

 

If your premiums have decreased you are definitely in the minority. Did your coverage or deductible change? If not, who is your carrier?

 

The carrier is Humana.

 

not being dismissive Perch, but I sure as hell am not going to "argue the points" of your chain emails. I have neither the time or the inclination. Your particular mix of good ideas with whacko rhetoric would take way too mcuh time.

 

I just love your presence and contributions to these discussions. Seriously. Dont ever change Perch.

 

You assume the GOP has some awesome plans ready to go, but gosh darn it! Those darn lefties wont listen to their savior plans that would fix everything! Then you say that you havent really even bothered to look to see if the GOP has any plans. I love it!!!

 

the GOP had plans back when Clinton tried to reform health care. They are remarkably similar to the bill that was currently passed. In fact the genesis of this plan could have come from the GOP circa 1997. But now it is the spawn of the debbil. How things change . . .

 

Neither party has any clue what they are doing and each party doesnt give a damn about anything but their own ideas and programs. The right has no plan in place, but they sure as hell want to make political hay out of symbolic gestures of repealing the current bill. The right might actually look competent if they ACTUALLY HAD A REPLACEMENT PLAN and widely publicized it. that would win over independents that want the current bill fixed or streamlined to make it more workable.

[bpwallace49]

And I love it when you try to be dismissive rather than argue the points of an argument.

 

If your premiums have decreased you are definitely in the minority. Did your coverage or deductible change? If not, who is your carrier?

 

The carrier is Humana.

 

not being dismissive Perch, but I sure as hell am not going to "argue the points" of your chain emails. I have neither the time or the inclination. Your particular mix of good ideas with whacko rhetoric would take way too mcuh time.

 

I just love your presence and contributions to these discussions. Seriously. Dont ever change Perch.

 

You assume the GOP has some awesome plans ready to go, but gosh darn it! Those darn lefties wont listen to their savior plans that would fix everything! Then you say that you havent really even bothered to look to see if the GOP has any plans. I love it!!!

 

the GOP had plans back when Clinton tried to reform health care. They are remarkably similar to the bill that was currently passed. In fact the genesis of this plan could have come from the GOP circa 1997. But now it is the spawn of the debbil. How things change . . .

 

Neither party has any clue what they are doing and each party doesnt give a damn about anything but their own ideas and programs. The right has no plan in place, but they sure as hell want to make political hay out of symbolic gestures of repealing the current bill. The right might actually look competent if they ACTUALLY HAD A REPLACEMENT PLAN and widely publicized it. that would win over independents that want the current bill fixed or streamlined to make it more workable.