Send your kids to college ... or not ...

[muck]

Don't send your kids to college.

 

With college costs rising 20x faster than the rate of inflation, even faster than healthcare costs, is sending your kids to college still the best thing to do ... especially since a recent study came out that said (iirc) more than 1/3 of all college kids learn "hardly anything" during their four years in college (and by "hardly anything" I think the reference is not including life skills like 'how to use a beer bong' and 'mastering intramural flag football', etc.)?

[Perchoutofwater]

Muck, your poll is flawed. I have two kids and both are very different individuals. At the ages of 9 and 12 it is to early to determine if they will be mature enough to go to 4 year university straight from high school, or if they will go to a junior college. Additionally they are too young to know what they really want to do in life. My oldest is very, very bright and has a good chance of getting an academic scholarship. My youngest is very athletic as well as very creative, and could possibly get an athletic scholarship or want to go somewhere that has a strong theatrical program. At this point I'm saving like they will both go to an elite university, and that I'm going to pay for it, but it way too early to tell what I'm going to do with them. I see no reason to send my daughters to an elite university if they are going to be a teacher, but if they want to be a doctor, lawyer, or possibly an engineer I'd be more inclined to sending them to an elite school. If they want to open their own business, depending on what that business is, I might suggest that they go to work straight out of high school for that type of business to get a feel for it, then go to JUCO for a couple of years taking accounting and management classes.

 

Long story short, I'll have to wait until it is a lot closer to that time to make that decision with them. Depending on their maturity level, and what they want to do as a career will depend on where I would be willing to send them. If they end up getting a scholarship, if it is to a good school, and they don't know what they want to do, then I'll let them go there and figure it out on someone else's dime. If I truly think they will benefit from going to an elite school, I'll send them to an elite school, if I think the field they have chosen gains no benefit from an elite school, then I'll send them to a good college, or maybe just suggest they get some management and accounting courses at a JUCO and give them the money I would have spent on an elite school to start their own business once I think they have a firm enough grasp on how to run that business.

 

Because I didn't feel that poll correctly identified my intentions I did not vote. Based on my financial situation I do feel that I would let my kids down if I could not afford to send my kids to a 4 year university, but that is based on our circumstances, and I don't think all parents should feel that way. I would not feel that I was letting my kids down if I required them to do something else prior to going to a 4 year university, as I'm not going to throw my money away if they don't know what they want to do, or if they are going to do something that I don't feel requires going straight to a 4 year university. I'd rather give the money I would have spent on the 4 year university to the kids to either buy a home or start a business if the career they chose does not require a 4 year university degree.

[Savage Beatings]

Your poll makes it sound as if it is only our choice. My kids will make their own decisions with my input and guidance, but I will not require them to follow my wishes.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Your poll makes it sound as if it is only our choice. My kids will make their own decisions with my input and guidance, but I will not require them to follow my wishes.

wurd

[whoopazz]

Both my kids went straight from HS to 4 year college because they wanted to and have prospective career paths that require a degree (not one of the choices).

 

They were qualified to go essentially anywhere they wanted and selected the best possible school that they liked for which costs were in line with our family budgets/savings (also not one of the choices)

[Ursa Majoris]

Your poll makes it sound as if it is only our choice. My kids will make their own decisions with my input and guidance, but I will not require them to follow my wishes.

This.

 

One of mine went straight to college and is now doing a PhD. She may not ever leave academia, she enjoys it so much. The other went straight to the Marines from HS and is now in school getting a degree but only so that he can rejoin as an officer.

 

Kids are their own people - let them decide, just offer guidance and help.

[The Holy Roller]

Mandatory military service for ALL 18 year olds, like Isreal.

[Big Country]

Your poll makes it sound as if it is only our choice. My kids will make their own decisions with my input and guidance, but I will not require them to follow my wishes.

 

This, however I am saving as much as I realistically can towards their potential college costs. Truth is, with how fast college costs are rising and the fact that you can borrow for college but you can't borrow for retirement, it is not the highest savings priority. All 3 kids have a 529 plan. If they choose to exceed what we have been able to save for them, they will need to acquire financial aid or have enough income to cover the difference. If they go to a school within budgetary means, than they won't. If for some reason they do not go to college, then I guess that is more money for any of the other kids that do choose to go.

[The Irish Doggy]

So long as employers still require a college education, my daughter will go.

 

I can see the benefits of other pursuits temporarily before college, or taking up a trade instead of college. However, my daughter will not turn out like my cousins who were never encouraged to seek education and my aunt/uncles did not offer to help pay for it. 2 are unemployed with no skills. 1 can't keep the same job for more than a year even when he is employed, and 1 is 29, living with his parents, and barely making a living working at a UPS/FedEx mailbox place with little likelihood of advancement in the company.

 

Of course, thankfully, I have 18 years before that has to happen. Education is surely a bubble that will burst and reform will happen before then.

Edited February 8, 2011 by The Irish Doggy

[Azazello1313]

our goal is to basically have enough saved for each kid to attend 4 years at a reputable in-state school.

 

my kids are 3 years old, and 1 month old respectively, so I am hoping the higher ed bubble bursts between now and then. but probably we'll just keep blowing it up more and more with taxpayer money.

[SEC=UGA]

My kids will have the option depending on their competency level and career goals.

 

If one of my children would rather take a year off to work after HS to decide on course of study great, if my child is adamant that they want to go into a certain field and is competent enough to get into college, we will send them to the most appropriate school in order to pursue said track of study (this will also be dependent upon many factors, I'm not sending my kid to Harvard for an education degree.) If my child can get into Duke and wants to be an attorney, doctor (MD, not PHD), or accountant, I'm all for shelling out the coin. If my child wants to be a lineman, I'll send him/her to the best place to learn how to be a lineman. I am not going to be adamant that my child attend college just for the sake of saying that my child attended college, you have to play it by ear according to the abilities that your child demonstrates.

[yo mama]

You know who the current economy doesn't suck for? The highly educated. My kids will go to college whether they like it or not. What they choose to do with their education after that is up to them.

[muck]

You know who the current economy doesn't suck for? The highly educated. My kids will go to college whether they like it or not. What they choose to do with their education after that is up to them.

 

I would argue it differently ... the economy doesn't suck for the highly motivated and intelligent ...

 

Not everyone with a college degree is educated or motivated.

 

Not everyone without a college degree is uneducated or unmotivated.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Kids are their own people - let them decide, just offer guidance and help.

 

 

I would argue it differently ... the economy doesn't suck for the highly motivated and intelligent ...

 

Not everyone with a college degree is educated or motivated.

 

Not everyone without a college degree is uneducated or unmotivated.

 

good posting here

[yo mama]

I would argue it differently ... the economy doesn't suck for the highly motivated and intelligent ...

 

Not everyone with a college degree is educated or motivated.

 

Not everyone without a college degree is uneducated or unmotivated.

Hey, I'm not speaking in absolutes. But the unemployment rate for people with graduate degrees is about half that for people with just college degrees. And the unemployment rate for people with college degrees is about half that for people without college degrees. And the inability to apply to and complete college would indicate to me that my kids' don't have the kind of motivation that it takes to make it on their own.

 

If my kids want to be carpenters after college, fine. But they'll be well-educated carpenters who have proven they are capable of rising to the occasion to achieve a long-term goal. Plus, its way harder to go back to school once you're older, or have kids. Better that they get it done while they're young even if they don't end up using their degree until later in life.

[Azazello1313]

often when this kind of topic comes up, people will point to the average salary for someone with a 4 year degree, the average salary for someone with just a HS degree, the average salary for a high school dropout, etc., and then they will say, "ah ha, the value of a college education is this-very-high-number-representing-the-difference-in-income-between-a-high-school-and-college-grad, therefore college is still a good deal." to me, that is incredibly misleading and basically just plain false. as a subset, people who pursue and complete college degrees compared with those who do not are, on average, far more intelligent, hard-working, affluent, motivated, well-adjusted, etc. to discern the true value of a 4 year degree, you would have to begin with people of the same intelligence, the same aptitude, the same work ethic, etc., and then measure the outcomes of those with college degrees versus those without. just saying that the average college grad earns x amount more than the average HS dropout doesn't come anywhere close to that true value.

[yo mama]

1. Not everyone with a college degree is educated or motivated.

 

2. Not everyone without a college degree is uneducated or unmotivated.

1. I'd say having a college degree, by definition, means you are more well-educated than someone without. (Though, I am by no means suggesting that education is the same as intelligence). As far as motivation, those who get off their ass to go to college are, generally speaking, more motivated than the people who could not.

 

2. People can learn through life experience or what not, sure. But for the most part, having an college degree looks far better on a resume, and makes a job candidate more employable. There will always be entrepreneurs and skilled tradesmen who make their own way regardless. But having a college degree would only augment their knowledge base and overall credentials. Yes, the absence of a college degree doesn't mean you are unmotivated. For example, there are a lot of very motivated ditch diggers waiting for work down at the Home Depot parking lot. But motivation alone will only take you so far in life - you generally have to couple is with something like capital, special skills, or education in order for success to blossom.

Edited February 8, 2011 by yo mama

[Azazello1313]

As far as motivation, those who get off their ass to go to college are, generally speaking, more motivated than the people who could not.

 

exactly, which is why it's a fallacy to compare their salaries, rates of unemployment, etc. in trying to discern the value of a college education. it's almost like saying that people who drive BMW's are, on average, smarter and harder working than people who drive toyota tercels, therefore you'll make more money if you trade in your tercel for a beamer.

[Brentastic]

I'll be encouraging my children to find something they love to do and go for it - and the further away from the corporate structure (i.e. getting a degree etc...) the better. Something creative would be ideal. Reading some of the posts in this thread is discouraging. I don't want my children to be automatons of the system - I want my children to strive for something much greater. Something that progresses humanity. Paying a large fee (college costs) just to get your foot in the door and to be accepted into the corporate system is not only undermining the human capacity, it's sending the wrong message to your children. Maybe in 15 or so years, the entire system will be improved for the better and people will have other choices other than 40+ hour work weeks. But I'm not holding my breath.

[yo mama]

exactly, which is why it's a fallacy to compare their salaries, rates of unemployment, etc. in trying to discern the value of a college education. it's almost like saying that people who drive BMW's are, on average, smarter and harder working than people who drive toyota tercels, therefore you'll make more money if you trade in your tercel for a beamer.

Fallacy might be too strong a word. I'd agree with you that there is less than a direct correlation. But let's be honest: the employment opportunities for someone with advance education and skills are more bountiful than someone without. I have a law degree. That qualifies me for an entire industry of work that would be unavailable, regardless of my motivation level. While more eduction many not translate directly to more success, more education does create more opportunities. And from opportunities come success.

[Brentastic]

As far as motivation, those who get off their ass to go to college are, generally speaking, more motivated than the people who could not.

Motivation sure is relative (isn't everything). So in your eyes, motivation is defined by being obedient to a system put in place by greedy men? The most motivated people I know are people who did not go to college. In fact, I'd argue that the more obedient a person is, the less motivated that person is. Motivation isn't 'doing what you're supposed to do'.

[Azazello1313]

Fallacy might be too strong a word. I'd agree with you that there is less than a direct correlation. But let's be honest: the employment opportunities for someone with advance education and skills are more bountiful than someone without. I have a law degree. That qualifies me for an entire industry of work that would be unavailable, regardless of my motivation level. While more eduction many not translate directly to more success, more education does create more opportunities. And from opportunities come success.

 

sure, but imagine for a moment you had an equally ambitious, intelligent and good-looking doppleganger. you spent 7 years going to school. I would have to imagine that whatever your twin spent those 7 years doing would also open up opportunities and experiences for him that would not be available to you.

 

I'm not saying education is useless, or not worth pursuing. hell, I am a big believer in education for its own sake. I just genuinely wonder what the true material benefits would look like if they were properly quantified -- because right now I think they are almost always grossly overstated due to simple selection bias.

[yo mama]

sure, but imagine for a moment you had an equally ambitious, intelligent and good-looking doppleganger. you spent 7 years going to school. I would have to imagine that whatever your twin spent those 7 years doing would also open up opportunities and experiences for him that would not be available to you.

 

I'm not saying education is useless, or not worth pursuing. hell, I am a big believer in education for its own sake. I just genuinely wonder what the true material benefits would look like if they were properly quantified -- because right now I think they are almost always grossly overstated due to simple selection bias.

First of all, that would be unpossible.

 

Second, I'm a firm believer that education is a form of delayed gratification. Whatever gains my doppelganger made in his 20s I will meet or surpass in my 30s. When my blue-collar doppelganger's aching back can no longer do heavy lifting in his 50s, I will be in my prime income-earning years. During the course of my career I will make more, be able to work longer, and be more intellectually stimulated.

 

That said, my scenario is predicated on getting the RIGHT kind of education. A masters degree in underwater basket weaving doesn't cut the mustard. If the educational degree doesn't qualify one to do something more, or lead to something that will, one has to question the propriety of shelling out the cash in the first place. For me, education is first and foremost about a return on investment, with the added bonus of becoming a generally more well-rounded and enlightened person.

Edited February 8, 2011 by yo mama

[polksalet]

a,b,a,false, true

 

I want my kids to go to private Christian school. Unfortunately the chances of this is happening extremely slim if I have to pay for it. I'm hoping with Jr's Lesnaresque body that he will get a scholly. Who knows about grades. He is doing well now but things change when they get in the 12 year old range. I have no idea about the girl but its pretty evident she won't being playing basketball unless she is really good at the point. I find solace that if neither cam get a good scholly from a Christian school I can hook them up with my cult at Padre. I cannot emphasize how uncomfortable my wife is turning Jr. loose on Padre Island at 18.

[muck]

Right ... take two groups of 18 year old ... 50 kids in each group ...

 

Ten kids in each group get into Princeton, ten into Harvard, ten into MIT, ten into Stanford and ten into Yale.

 

One group of the 50 kids attend college.

 

The other group does not ever attend four year university (or JUCO for that matter), but instead learn a trade, art/music, start a business, etc.

 

Which group has higher cumulative earnings at 40 yrs old (where college costs are 'negative income')? What about at 50yrs old? 75 years old?

 

PS --- Remember that Michael Dell, Bill Gates, Richard Branson and Mark Zuckerberg did not finish their undergraduate degree ... much less their graduate degree ...