Moon: You are a racist if you criticize Newton

[detlef]

Can you name the white cornerbacks? I dont think its racism I think any coach would hire an alien if he could play the position because all coaches want is to win. Now I do think people stereotype and think white QB's can be better and black DB can be better but I think the NFL is the least racists organization around due to the fact they are all trying to win. I also think blacks have done great in the NFL.

 

I dont see them complaining there are too many blacks in the NBA. Nascar dosent have too many blacks either. Before you call the NFL racist look around. How many black hockey players are there? How many white rappers are there?

 

If you want to make a race quota everywhere then do it. Everything will be fair and people will still bitch about it.

 

I think when people only complain one way on anything they have an agenda.

 

There I go beating the dead horse I got sucked in again.

I'd appreciate if you wouldn't attach this rant to my post because doing so implies I was making complaints that I wasn't.

 

For instance, where did I bring up quotas?

 

Surely you're not denying my main point in that post, that the fact that there are more white QBs in the NFL could be because white kids are targeted for that position from an early age rather than because white guys are genetically pre-disposed to be better at the position. A point I later mentioned may not be the only reason but simply one that was worth considering.

[tazinib1]

I just found gbpfan's question to be an interesting one

 

 

I'm really beginning to think people just skip over my posts....

[lennykravitz2004]

Wasn't there an option QB from Neb (Crouch?) who had a short stint as a CB for the NYJ? I wouldn't say he succeeded at the NFL level, or anything, but he came to mind as a white QB who had the ability to play elsewhere.

 

Matt Jones (Arkansas QB that moved to WR in JAC) is another.

 

Give me a minute, and I'm sure I can come up with seven more.

 

I'm not saying I take either side in this debate (although I do think Moon's a bit off on this one). I just found gbpfan's question to be an interesting one, because I know there HAVE been a few college QB's (some white) to move to other positions, over the years. Coming up with a solid list of ten, though, might be pretty tough.

 

Crouch was drafted by the Rams to play WR, and Steve Bellisari was drafted as a safety. In the same year, IIRC.

 

IMHO, Moon's comment is unfounded. Although, I won't criticize him, as I have said some dumb things in my life too.

[Bronco Billy]

Though used in a variety of institutions, the Wonderlic test has become best known for its use in the NFL pre-draft assessments of prospective football players.

 

This assessment roughly corresponds to examples from Paul Zimmerman's The New Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football. According to Zimmerman, examples of average scores for each position are:

 

Offensive tackle – 26

Center – 25

Quarterback – 24 (Most teams want at least 21 for a quarterback.)[6]

Guard – 23

Tight end – 22

Safety – 19

Linebacker – 19

Cornerback – 18

Wide receiver – 17

Fullback – 17

Halfback – 16

 

link

 

NFL Total: 31% W-EUD, 67% B-AFD, 1% H/LD, 1% ASD

99% National, 1% International

 

NFL By Position: (H/LD and ASD less than 1% per position)

 

QB – 79% W-EUD, 21% B-AFD

HB – 10% W-EUD, 90% B-AFD

WR – 10% W-EUD, 90% B-AFD

TE – 56% W-EUD, 44% B-AFD

OT – 45% W-EUD, 55% B-AFD

OG – 56% W-EUD, 44% B-AFD

C – 76% W-EUD, 24% B-AFD

CB – 3% W-EUD, 97% B-AFD

S – 15% W-EUD, 85% B-AFD

LB – 23% W-EUD, 77% B-AFD

DE – 23% W-EUD, 77% B-AFD

DT – 19% W-EUD, 81% B-AFD

 

link

 

FWIW: It's pretty easy to see that some positions require a lot more smarts to play, whereas some positions' predominant qualification is superb athleticism. This is not to say whites are smarter than blacks as a generalization, but rather that some of the gifted athletes gravitate to the positions that their particular set of skills and ability lend themselves to. It's pretty simple to see that positions like DB, RB, and WR require extraordinary athletic ability. That would predispose that kids who are not well educated or do not have great cognizant ability but do have superior physical ability would start leaning to and filling these positions.

 

Also what I see is not that blacks can't compete mentally with whites, but rather that whites struggle to compete athletically with blacks. That would mean that in positions that require lesser mental capacity the superior athletes are taking many more of the jobs available. In positions that rely on mental ability as much or more than just sheer physical giftedness that the white kids can compete and consequently fill as many of the positions as blacks. In positions like QB and C where mental ability and technique can mean even more than just raw physical talent, the white players fill more of the positions available probably because the more physically talented blacks Josh Gordon themselves out of the positions by gravitating to other positions where there isn't as much competition (the pool has a restricted number of qualified candidates of one race and so it is easier to earn and keep one's position there).

 

It also means Moon is full of dog-doo, since it is difficult to make an argument that blacks are discriminated against in any way in terms of NFL positions. In fact, if any race is discriminated against, these numbers would lend credence to whites being at a disadvantage in terms of acquiring and keeping employment as DBs, RBs, and WRs.

 

My thoughts. Have at it.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[bushwacked]

Moon's comments were dumb, and the reaction is predictable. I find the whole race card thing uninteresting, kind of a 'who cares' deal, I'm always a bit bewildered by how much of a reaction it gets. Methinks the people who detest the race card most also wait for it to happen and feed off of it bit.

Edited April 2, 2011 by bushwacked

[Bronco Billy]

Methinks the people who detest the race card most also wait for it to happen and feed off of it bit.

 

I agree, but that is likely because when one side uses an unsupportable argument for adamently and vociferously advocating a position, opponents to that position, or even those who know better out of common sense, tend to get some satisfaction out of watching them step on their dicks when they do it.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[tazinib1]

I agree, but that is likely because when one side uses an unsupportable argument for adamently and vociferously advocating a position, opponents to that position, or even those who know better out of common sense, tend to get some satisfaction out of watching them step on their dicks when they do it.

 

 

Where did you dig up the definition of the Tailgate at? I've been looking for it.

[Gopher]

 

I'm really beginning to think people just skip over my posts....

Sorry. In the back of my mind, I actually thought it was your question. Then, in my haste of browsing through the previous posts to see who asked it (whether or not someone could name 10 white QB's, etc.), I just happened to see his post before yours. No, I do not have you on ignore, or anything.

[bushwacked]

I agree, but that is likely because when one side uses an unsupportable argument for adamently and vociferously advocating a position, opponents to that position, or even those who know better out of common sense, tend to get some satisfaction out of watching them step on their dicks when they do it.

 

Everyone wants to be a victim, it isn't limited to race. Heck, back to the race card, some of us want to be victims of other people claiming they are victims.

Edited April 2, 2011 by bushwacked

[tazinib1]

Ryan Mallett needs to hire Rush Limbaugh cause he's not getting a fair shake either. Damn racists. How dare you make a comment about somebody's personality/work ethic/demeanor or the size of his dick. Especially this close to the draft..I mean really.

 

And I'm wondering how Newton feels about good ole Moon's comments. Cause if he wasn't prepared to answer questions about it before, he sure as hell better be ready now. Oh Moon....you just torpedoed your boy.

Edited April 2, 2011 by tazinib1

[tazinib1]

No, I do not have you on ignore, or anything.

 

[Rovers]

I believe that the NFL is in fact color blind. Teams will draft and play the best players to the best of thier ability to do so, regardless of position on the field. This is based soley on their player evaluations. Sometimes they get it wrong.

 

The mechanisms that bring players to being the best in a given position are too variable and numerous to even attempt to get a handle on. If Newton for instance can be a very good NFL QB, that we will find out soon enough. Was Danny Woodhead discriminated against because he was a small white guy with speed? No, the Jets were just too stupid (some would argue bad system fit) to realize his potential. I don't think it was a racial issue with Woodhead... not a stereotyping problem as much as the fact the Jets didn't let him play.

 

One could make an arguement that the NFL has far too many blacks in it's ranks, and that position would be equally ridiculous. NFL teams want to win, and they will draft more highly those players that they beleive will help them to win. It's the same with coaches. Owners want to win. They will get the personnel that they believe will help them win games.

 

Racism exists, surely, but on the NFL playing field? No. NFL teams will draft the best player they can based on their player evaluations, less character issues. Every single time. It's the same for the NBA and MLB. They will go after the best players, period.

 

The race card is played far too often, and it is in fact counterproductive in terms of reducing racism where it actually does exist.

[Bronco Billy]

Was Danny Woodhead discriminated against because he was a small white guy with speed? No, the Jets were just too stupid (some would argue bad system fit) to realize his potential.

 

I'd lean to disagreeing. I can point to Woodhead and Welker as guys who are very talented and could start at the NFL level and NY and MIA overlooked their talent, whereas Bellicheck was actually open minded and turned their former teams' pigeonholing into his benefit - from division rivals no less. I think you can look at Hillis, who proved that he could perform at a high level getting taken completely off the field by McDaniels and the Browns capitalizing on his stupidity by gaining a very talented RB for next to nothing (one could argue it was nothing). Hillis was clearly the most talented RB on the DEN roster and McDaniels never gave him so much as a sniff.

 

The openminded teams are benefiting from the short sightedness of their former teams - as it should be. There will never be any way to know for sure, and the Jets, Fins, and Broncos will sure as hell never admit that they discriminated based on race. But to see the superb results as these guys performed for their new teams makes one wonder why they couldn't get any kind of opportunity with their past teams.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[Ursa Majoris]

I believe that the NFL is in fact color blind. Teams will draft and play the best players to the best of thier ability to do so, regardless of position on the field. This is based soley on their player evaluations. Sometimes they get it wrong.

 

The mechanisms that bring players to being the best in a given position are too variable and numerous to even attempt to get a handle on. If Newton for instance can be a very good NFL QB, that we will find out soon enough. Was Danny Woodhead discriminated against because he was a small white guy with speed? No, the Jets were just too stupid (some would argue bad system fit) to realize his potential. I don't think it was a racial issue with Woodhead... not a stereotyping problem as much as the fact the Jets didn't let him play.

 

One could make an arguement that the NFL has far too many blacks in it's ranks, and that position would be equally ridiculous. NFL teams want to win, and they will draft more highly those players that they beleive will help them to win. It's the same with coaches. Owners want to win. They will get the personnel that they believe will help them win games.

 

Racism exists, surely, but on the NFL playing field? No. NFL teams will draft the best player they can based on their player evaluations, less character issues. Every single time. It's the same for the NBA and MLB. They will go after the best players, period.

 

The race card is played far too often, and it is in fact counterproductive in terms of reducing racism where it actually does exist.

I agree with this, especially the last sentence. I find it VERY hard to believe that the NFL is a hotbed of racism. In fact, it seems to me to be a poster child for equal opportunity. Blacks bleating about racism because there are more white QBs / coaches is as silly as whites bleating that too many NFL RBs are black.

[MojoMan]

Playing the race card is for losers.

 

That being said, pioneers like Moon have made being a Black QB a non-issue; black QBs are a dime a dozen now.

[tazinib1]

Off topic kinda sorta:

 

NFLN's Brian Baldinger, "I watched this kid dominate the SEC like no one since Bo Jackson."

 

I almost threw up in my mouth. Bo Jackson is my all-time favorite player....one of the best RB's of all time. How dare he. SOB!!!

[Undefeated72]

I'd lean to disagreeing. I can point to Woodhead and Welker as guys who are very talented and could start at the NFL level and NY and MIA overlooked their talent, whereas Bellicheck was actually open minded and turned their former teams' pigeonholing into his benefit - from division rivals no less. I think you can look at Hillis, who proved that he could perform at a high level getting taken completely off the field by McDaniels and the Browns capitalizing on his stupidity by gaining a very talented RB for next to nothing (one could argue it was nothing). Hillis was clearly the most talented RB on the DEN roster and McDaniels never gave him so much as a sniff.

 

The openminded teams are benefiting from the short sightedness of their former teams - as it should be. There will never be any way to know for sure, and the Jets, Fins, and Broncos will sure as hell never admit that they discriminated based on race. But to see the superb results as these guys performed for their new teams makes one wonder why they couldn't get any kind of opportunity with their past teams.

 

 

Miami didnt overlook Welkers talent he was a restricted free agent and the Scumbag Patriots put the poison pill in the contract which Rodger Godell said was wrong and gave them a slap on the wrist and made the Patriots give us a 7th round pick. Miami wanted Welker!!

[Seahawks21]

With the body of work and innate tools he has, if Newton were white, I sincerely believe he'd be getting more comparisons to Elway and Steve Young than he does, and less comparisons to Vince Young. That said, it isn't like the kid is going to slide to the 2nd round. He's still going to be a top pick, and the teams that will be passing on him will be passing on him because of his accuracy and wonderlic score, not because of the color of his skin.

 

If Jake Locker was black, I believe the opposite would be true and there would be no chance he would go in the top-2 rounds given his body of work and innate tools.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Seahawks21

[Rovers]

With the body of work and innate tools he has, if Newton were white, I sincerely believe he'd be getting more comparisons to Elway and Steve Young than he does, and less comparisons to Vince Young. That said, it isn't like the kid is going to slide to the 2nd round. He's still going to be a top pick, and the teams that will be passing on him will be passing on him because of his accuracy and wonderlic score, not because of the color of his skin.

 

If Jake Locker was black, I believe the opposite would be true and there would be no chance he would go in the top-2 rounds given his body of work and innate tools.

 

He is more often compared to Tebow and rightfully so. Anyone copmaring him to Elway or Young simply knows nothing about football and even suggesting that if he were white would make anyone make those comparisions is about as blinded as Moon is. Elway, Newton... LMAO. That's some pretty smelly bait right there.

[detlef]

With the body of work and innate tools he has, if Newton were white, I sincerely believe he'd be getting more comparisons to Elway and Steve Young than he does, and less comparisons to Vince Young. That said, it isn't like the kid is going to slide to the 2nd round. He's still going to be a top pick, and the teams that will be passing on him will be passing on him because of his accuracy and wonderlic score, not because of the color of his skin.

 

If Jake Locker was black, I believe the opposite would be true and there would be no chance he would go in the top-2 rounds given his body of work and innate tools.

I think there's a lot of truth in this. And no, I don't think it is at all off-base to bring up Elway and Steve Young. Both were physical freaks but neither threw a particularly pretty ball early on (especially Young who actually may have never thrown a pretty ball his whole career). Dude was amazing but he didn't exactly look like Marino throwing it. Assuming, of course, the comparison is not to mean that Newton will end up as good as those guys, but rather looks as good now as they did coming out of college.

 

But you're even more spot on with the Vince Young comparison. The guys don't really have nearly as much in common as people are inclined to think and yet they've been joined at the hip in the eyes of fans and the media since Newton burst on the scene. Like Bill Simmons aptly put it during the USC/TX game, when Vince Young throws the ball, it looks like he's flinging poo. There's a grace to Newton's release that seems like he's much closer to dialing it in. Thing is, they're both big, athletic, and black. Because the Vince Young thing came up way before the Wonderlick or the PFW column that panned his attitude and such. The second we all knew who Cam Newton was, we were comparing him to Vince Young.

 

You're also correct about Locker. We love him because he's big, athletic, and white. If dude was black, we'd be talking about what position other than QB he'll be playing in the NFL (well, in fairness you already have been for some time now) because his awful stats would confirm our suspicions that QB is really a white man's position.

 

But, you're also correct about the fact that, ultimately, it's not like Newton is suffering from unfair comparisons so much that it's going to cost him anything at all. It seems like the one group who absolutely is color blind in this regard is the NFL, and they're the only ones who matter. The black QB perception, it seems, has more to do with fans and the media, who's opinion ultimately doesn't much matter.

[Undefeated72]

I'd appreciate if you wouldn't attach this rant to my post because doing so implies I was making complaints that I wasn't.

 

For instance, where did I bring up quotas?

 

Surely you're not denying my main point in that post, that the fact that there are more white QBs in the NFL could be because white kids are targeted for that position from an early age rather than because white guys are genetically pre-disposed to be better at the position. A point I later mentioned may not be the only reason but simply one that was worth considering.

 

 

Please detach Detlef from all my post since that is his request. Its a forum Detlef dont take things so serious. I meant nothing harmful to your character and Im sure nobody took it that way.

[Bronco Billy]

With the body of work and innate tools he has, if Newton were white, I sincerely believe he'd be getting more comparisons to Elway and Steve Young than he does, and less comparisons to Vince Young.

 

 

Newton is comparable more or less to Tebow of last year. I don't remember anyone credible making any comparisons between Tebow and Elway or Young.

[bpwallace49]

I think Newton will be better than Akili Smith, but not as Dante Culpepper.

 

That gives me enough latitude to use the race card later, doesnt it?

[detlef]

Please detach Detlef from all my post since that is his request. Its a forum Detlef dont take things so serious. I meant nothing harmful to your character and Im sure nobody took it that way.

 

How 'bout this? If you've got a point to make, go ahead and make it. But, see, you don't have to hit reply to someone to do so, you can just make a post. Hitting reply and then going on some rant sort of implies that rant is directed towards that person. And, if that person really didn't say anything to deserve that response, that's bad form.

 

It's really that hard to figure out.

 

Oh, and when that happens, the correct response is "My bad, I must have misread your post." Or, if you're pretty damned certain that you read the guy correctly, demand that he explain himself. This is a forum. And on this forum, we debate things. And if you're going to debate with me, I'd appreciate it if you debate with me, not with what you're pretending I'm saying.

 

Carry on.

Edited April 5, 2011 by detlef

[Cowboyz1]

You know, Cam and others wouldn't be so challenged if colleges and parents and the players themselves would buckle down in school and quit letting them through on talent. As we see time and again they (colleges and high schools) are doing these kids no favors by passing them through without challenging them to work harder. It all comes to bite them when they need to blend into a higher social class and they're not ready. Learning how to learn is as important as learning itself.

 

Black, white, or purple, they look at the wonderlick score for a reason. Life is hard enough but to be put in the position of millionare and leader of a franchise, you had better have more going for you then your arm.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Cowboyz1