stevegrab Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Big Country makes a good point about the way the league administrator is described. And I disagree with elecricrelish, anybody who's played FFL for any time SHOULD KNOW that scores can change. And yes it is 12 (or however many guys) having fun, but the guy made a bush league move (allowed by poorly designed rules) and now he wants a do over (to keep a player he decided to release) because he didn't need to make the move. The guy wanting the do over is the one who is making a stink and crushing the fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Big Country makes a good point about the way the league administrator is described. And I disagree with elecricrelish, anybody who's played FFL for any time SHOULD KNOW that scores can change. And yes it is 12 (or however many guys) having fun, but the guy made a bush league move (allowed by poorly designed rules) and now he wants a do over (to keep a player he decided to release) because he didn't need to make the move. The guy wanting the do over is the one who is making a stink and crushing the fun. Nothing bush league about employing a strategy that is routine in that league and allowed by the rules. The fact that YOU think it's bush league is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Nothing bush league about employing a strategy that is routine in that league and allowed by the rules. The fact that YOU think it's bush league is irrelevant. This much is true. Plenty of us think the rules in question are lame. But they are, none the less, the rules. Now, many of us would also argue that this game should, first and foremost be a chance to engage in good-natured competition with others rather than trying to out-maneuver each other through suspect loop-holes in the rules. However, that is completely beside the point. Team A did nothing to violate the rules and, thus, should not be punished. Frowned upon, perhaps, but that is a matter of opinion. And, again, not the point. The point has been, and remains, that even though Team A's actions were in keeping with the rules, they should have been recognized by him to be an insurance move in the event that the unofficial stats remained unchanged. Once again, good for him. He worked the system to his advantage. Say what you want, but that is not against the rules, so that's that. But, in no way does he have any claim at all at getting his move back. None, zero, zilch, nada, you are 100% completely and totally wrong if you think so. End of story. It's really that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 For the record, I do not think it was a bush league move. It was smart strategy in the given situation. The league rules virtually dictated that he make the move that he did in order to play for the win. As I said above, my opinion of the rules that led to this are irrelevant, my opinion of the situation and the move is based on the rules in place, not on my opinion of the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The answer to this really depends on the type of league it is. Is it hard-core, full-tilt, follow-the-rules-or-be damned? Or is is a bunch of guys just trying having fun, where exceptions can be made when extenuating circumstances arise? I don't play in any leagues like the latter, because it often leads to issues like this. I prefer black-and-white, rules spelled out, and followed 100%. That's just me. Some like to enjoy FF a little more loosely, and that's completely OK too. All that being said, in a hard-core league, this situation would never even be worthy of discussion: he made a move he was willing to make to earn the win. Its up to each and every owner to ensure the decision they are making is the best one possible. To rely 100% on league software (which has been known to err until final stats are audited and adjusted) is sketchy at best, irresponsible at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachBum Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ah, remember the good old days when post padding meant just adding a "pad" answer. Much simpler to read through. OP must have carpal tunnel by now. Oh, and I agree with the simple point that once a move has been made, "unless there was an actual system/human error on that move", it must stand. Making the move for the wrong reason is not cause for reversal. (Had to post once in case this thread starts getting into record territory.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ah, remember the good old days when scores were calculated by hand. Completely avoids this mess of preliminary stats. Fixed your post to say what you really meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ah, remember the good old days when post padding meant just adding a "pad" answer. Much simpler to read through. OP must have carpal tunnel by now. Oh, and I agree with the simple point that once a move has been made, "unless there was an actual system/human error on that move", it must stand. Making the move for the wrong reason is not cause for reversal. (Had to post once in case this thread starts getting into record territory.) I'm a pretty new "Huddler" so I have no idea what record territory would be, but I sincerely hope this thread doesn't get there. I completely realize that I am the major cause of it being extended for as long as it has, but I have actually been trying to end the discussion for a few pages now...just can't help but respond to some of the things that pop up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachBum Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Fixed your post to say what you really meant. Ah yes, couldn't wait to get the Monday morning paper so we could start counting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 So my thought is that there is no way homeboy's move should be reversed, regardless of the change in stats, because I'm quite certain those rules about scoring changes are clearly stated... unless of course you are still actually using the paper on Monday/Tuesday morning to calculate scores. If this is the case then maybe we should be looking into a group psych evaluation for the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Epilogue for anyone who cares: Team A reclaimed Daniel Thomas off of waivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddahj Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 So then what was the point of this discussion??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 So then what was the point of this discussion??? Think about it...you'll figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joessfl Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Nothing bush league about employing a strategy that is routine in that league and allowed by the rules. The fact that YOU think it's bush league is irrelevant. Have to agree to disagree then. Its bush league, gaming the system, using a silly loophole in the rules to allow him to win a game that should have been a tie (or loss based on tie breakers). Then wanting the move undone, its all BS IMHO. Did he breaks the rules, NO, I never said he did. Did I say he should be punished, NOPE, never said that either. If this kind of stuff happened in my league the owners would give the guy a verbal beating for it. The fact that YOU asked for opinions makes everybody's opinion relevant. Ok, so now that TEAM A claimed Thomas off waivers, why not fill us on what the point of the discussion was, instead of being coy and telling us "Think about it...you'll figure it out." Do roster moves cost money and he didn't want to pay? I understand you only have like 2 bench spots, so maybe nobody else had room to sign Thomas while covering byes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Have to agree to disagree then. Its bush league, gaming the system, using a silly loophole in the rules to allow him to win a game that should have been a tie (or loss based on tie breakers). Then wanting the move undone, its all BS IMHO. Did he breaks the rules, NO, I never said he did. Did I say he should be punished, NOPE, never said that either. If this kind of stuff happened in my league the owners would give the guy a verbal beating for it. The fact that YOU asked for opinions makes everybody's opinion relevant. Ok, so now that TEAM A claimed Thomas off waivers, why not fill us on what the point of the discussion was, instead of being coy and telling us "Think about it...you'll figure it out." Do roster moves cost money and he didn't want to pay? I understand you only have like 2 bench spots, so maybe nobody else had room to sign Thomas while covering byes. This is not bush league, this is strategy. It is within the rules of the league, and making roster decisions once the games have begun, while not done every week, happens with some regularity. It's akin to a coach making a move in the fourth quarter with two minutes to go to get his team the victory. I have no idea what percentage or how many, but many leagues are set up this way (rosters lock for each player once their game begins, but not before). There is absolutely nothing wrong with what he did, and I would speculate that almost 100% of FF owners in his position would have done the same thing in order to turn an "L" into a "W" (yet maybe not on the same timeline). That is why the fact that YOU think it is bush league is irrelevant. It is normal and routine, and an accepted strategy in our league. (You're right, your opinion IS relevant to the conversation on this forum, but not to the decision process in our league). As far as the point of the conversation, that sounded like a rhetorical question to me. Is the implication here that since this person was able to reclaim his player, we should have never discussed this in the first place? Not sure if I understand what you're asking here, but if that is the case, I guess the answer is that first of all, there was no way to know when this was brought up that the end result would be as such, and the intent was to get opinionns on how to handle anyway...mission accomplished. Not sure if that answers your question or not. Edited October 13, 2011 by SecondString Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I have no idea what percentage or how many, but many leagues are set up this way (rosters lock for each player once their game begins, but not before). The part before the comma completely invalidates the part after the comma. Now, I would agree that many leagues allow LINEUP changes after the games start but before the individuals game has started, but I would state, albeit with no factual data other than anecdotal of a large number of leagues, including most of the BOTH leagues, that roster moves are locked by the early Sunday games and not allowed during the games for a vast majority of FF leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 This is not bush league, this is strategy. It is within the rules of the league, and making roster decisions once the games have begun, while not done every week, happens with some regularity. It's akin to a coach making a move in the fourth quarter with two minutes to go to get his team the victory. I have no idea what percentage or how many, but many leagues are set up this way (rosters lock for each player once their game begins, but not before). There is absolutely nothing wrong with what he did, and I would speculate that almost 100% of FF owners in his position would have done the same thing in order to turn an "L" into a "W" (yet maybe not on the same timeline). That is why the fact that YOU think it is bush league is irrelevant. It is normal and routine, and an accepted strategy in our league. (You're right, your opinion IS relevant to the conversation on this forum, but not to the decision process in our league). As far as the point of the conversation, that sounded like a rhetorical question to me. Is the implication here that since this person was able to reclaim his player, we should have never discussed this in the first place? Not sure if I understand what you're asking here, but if that is the case, I guess the answer is that first of all, there was no way to know when this was brought up that the end result would be as such, and the intent was to get opinionns on how to handle anyway...mission accomplished. Not sure if that answers your question or not. More or less. Seems Team A's fear that he'd lose Thomas was unfounded. The short benches and bye weeks probably meant few other owners saw value in signing him. PS Nobody's opinion here should really be relavent to the decision your league makes. You guys are the ones in the league, you need to make the decision and live with it. You asked for opinions here, the overwhelming majority said "NO DO NOT REVERSE THE ROSTER MOVE". That is usually the end of these type of threads (in my experience of years of reading the forums). I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 The part before the comma completely invalidates the part after the comma. Now, I would agree that many leagues allow LINEUP changes after the games start but before the individuals game has started, but I would state, albeit with no factual data other than anecdotal of a large number of leagues, including most of the BOTH leagues, that roster moves are locked by the early Sunday games and not allowed during the games for a vast majority of FF leagues. Jeez, what's the point?? I said "many", that's all. Not that it's germaine to the conversation, but fine. The point is, it is in place and accepted practice in our league since 2005, and this is the league for which this entire topic is being discussed. I don't think it's necessary to pinpoint how many or what percentage of OTHER leagues may have different structures, which is why I phrased it the way I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) More or less. Seems Team A's fear that he'd lose Thomas was unfounded. The short benches and bye weeks probably meant few other owners saw value in signing him. PS Nobody's opinion here should really be relavent to the decision your league makes. You guys are the ones in the league, you need to make the decision and live with it. You asked for opinions here, the overwhelming majority said "NO DO NOT REVERSE THE ROSTER MOVE". That is usually the end of these type of threads (in my experience of years of reading the forums). I'm done. Yeah, cool Steve, but the only issue I have with your original post is that you admittedly sat back and followed the thread throughout without participating, figured out which way the wind was blowing, and then once it was clear that the conversation was pretty much over, you finally weigh in. No real problem there, but then in this very first post, you also decided to include a personal insult "thank God there are no people like that in my league..." Then you bail out. Talk about bush league. Edited October 13, 2011 by SecondString Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yeah, cool Steve, but the only issue I have with your original post is that you admittedly sat back and followed the thread throughout without participating, figured out which way the wind was blowing, and then once it was clear that the conversation was pretty much over, you finally weigh in. No real problem there, but then in this very first post, you also decided to include a personal insult "thank God there are no people like that in my league..." Then you bail out. Talk about bush league. Sorry, cannot let that go. As I said in my first post, long time lurker on the boards, first time poster. I had been following this thread and wanted to voice MY OPINION. I'm not parrotting the point others made, I'm telling it like I see it. The fact that I called it bush league (the roster move he made that wasn't needed to get him the win) when few others did should show that. I couldn't register on the site, as it wouldn't accept any of the valid email addresses I had (yahoo and other sites all blocked). So I had to send an email to support, wait for a response, reply back with my info to get registered and then login to post my opinion. That took some time, and the thread continued to grow then. My thoughts were based on your initial post, and every response you posted, not on the opinions of other members. The fact that you asked this question, hoping the masses would agree with your friend so that maybe you could convince your league to undo the roster move shows your true motives. The fact that you continue to argue with people trying to prove you are right, while backpedaling and saying the move shouldn't be undone is pretty lame. I stand by my comment ("thank God there are no people like that in my league..." ), I wouldn't want to play in a league where people look for loopholes in the rules to gain some advantage to get a win. Where's the fun in that. Draft a better team, scoure the waivers, work on trades, that's how you win in fantasy football. Not by dropping a player on bye and replacing them with a guy playing on MNF to increase your bench points so you win (then whine when you find out you didn't need to make that move and ask for it to be undone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I think it's pathetic that it would even cross the guy's mind to ask for it to be reversed. Live with your decision and move on. Can't be my fault, someone else screwed up and I should get a do over. F that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Sorry, cannot let that go. As I said in my first post, long time lurker on the boards, first time poster. I had been following this thread and wanted to voice MY OPINION. I'm not parrotting the point others made, I'm telling it like I see it. The fact that I called it bush league (the roster move he made that wasn't needed to get him the win) when few others did should show that. I couldn't register on the site, as it wouldn't accept any of the valid email addresses I had (yahoo and other sites all blocked). So I had to send an email to support, wait for a response, reply back with my info to get registered and then login to post my opinion. That took some time, and the thread continued to grow then. My thoughts were based on your initial post, and every response you posted, not on the opinions of other members. The fact that you asked this question, hoping the masses would agree with your friend so that maybe you could convince your league to undo the roster move shows your true motives. The fact that you continue to argue with people trying to prove you are right, while backpedaling and saying the move shouldn't be undone is pretty lame. I stand by my comment ("thank God there are no people like that in my league..." ), I wouldn't want to play in a league where people look for loopholes in the rules to gain some advantage to get a win. Where's the fun in that. Draft a better team, scoure the waivers, work on trades, that's how you win in fantasy football. Not by dropping a player on bye and replacing them with a guy playing on MNF to increase your bench points so you win (then whine when you find out you didn't need to make that move and ask for it to be undone). "I stand by my comment ("thank God there are no people like that in my league..." ), I wouldn't want to play in a league where people look for loopholes in the rules to gain some advantage to get a win. Where's the fun in that. Draft a better team, scoure the waivers, work on trades, that's how you win in fantasy football. Not by dropping a player on bye and replacing them with a guy playing on MNF to increase your bench points so you win (then whine when you find out you didn't need to make that move and ask for it to be undone)." Man, you either haven't been reading the thread before making your comments, are thick-headed, or lack rational thinking skills... THIS IS NOT A LOOPHOLE! As stated a couple of times already, this is a normal part of our league that you can make roster moves before the games begin, whether it is before the 4:00 games, the Sunday night game, or the Monday night game. As stated, this is a common occurrence in this league, and normal strategy. You can disagree with the rule all you want, but you cannot fault the owner who made the move! This is the only league this particular owner has ever been in, so these are the only rules he knows. He's seen other owners make moves after the 1:00 kickoff many times...how can he be faulted for employing the strategy? For you to call this "bush league" and a "loophole" shows an undeniable lack of grasp for the facts here. Cool it. You're embarrasing yourself. Edited October 13, 2011 by SecondString Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 "I stand by my comment ("thank God there are no people like that in my league..." ), I wouldn't want to play in a league where people look for loopholes in the rules to gain some advantage to get a win. Where's the fun in that. Draft a better team, scoure the waivers, work on trades, that's how you win in fantasy football. Not by dropping a player on bye and replacing them with a guy playing on MNF to increase your bench points so you win (then whine when you find out you didn't need to make that move and ask for it to be undone)." Man, you either haven't been reading the thread before making your comments, are thick-headed, or lack rational thinking skills... THIS IS NOT A LOOPHOLE! As stated a couple of times already, this is a normal part of our league that you can make roster moves before the games begin, whether it is before the 4:00 games, the Sunday night game, or the Monday night game. As stated, this is a common occurrence in this league, and normal strategy. You can disagree with the rule all you want, but you cannot fault the owner who made the move! This is the only league this particular owner has ever been in, so these are the only rules he knows. He's seen other owners make moves after the 1:00 kickoff many times...how can he be faulted for employing the strategy? For you to call this "bush league" and a "loophole" shows an undeniable lack of grasp for the facts here. Cool it. You're embarrasing yourself. Complete legit initial move. Just pathetic to ask to undo the FA move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 "I stand by my comment ("thank God there are no people like that in my league..." ), I wouldn't want to play in a league where people look for loopholes in the rules to gain some advantage to get a win. Where's the fun in that. Draft a better team, scoure the waivers, work on trades, that's how you win in fantasy football. Not by dropping a player on bye and replacing them with a guy playing on MNF to increase your bench points so you win (then whine when you find out you didn't need to make that move and ask for it to be undone)." Man, you either haven't been reading the thread before making your comments, are thick-headed, or lack rational thinking skills... THIS IS NOT A LOOPHOLE! As stated a couple of times already, this is a normal part of our league that you can make roster moves before the games begin, whether it is before the 4:00 games, the Sunday night game, or the Monday night game. As stated, this is a common occurrence in this league, and normal strategy. You can disagree with the rule all you want, but you cannot fault the owner who made the move! This is the only league this particular owner has ever been in, so these are the only rules he knows. He's seen other owners make moves after the 1:00 kickoff many times...how can he be faulted for employing the strategy? For you to call this "bush league" and a "loophole" shows an undeniable lack of grasp for the facts here. Cool it. You're embarrasing yourself. You basically provoked him into reiterating his opinion, which is a legitimate view for his specific league. I wouldn't like that kind of working the rules in my leagues either, because I don't think it's in the spirit of the game to make a move for a player you don't intend to play or keep, but he did say this, which is flat-out truth: PS Nobody's opinion here should really be relavent to the decision your league makes. You guys are the ones in the league, you need to make the decision and live with it. You asked for opinions here, the overwhelming majority said "NO DO NOT REVERSE THE ROSTER MOVE". That is usually the end of these type of threads (in my experience of years of reading the forums). I'm done. Seriously, are you related to Bronco Billy, because you're getting exceedingly good at completely ignoring what yourself and others have wrote, and twisting the argument as if it's not all documented with 7 pages repeating the same responses. Go back and read the responses in this thread. It's just gotten silly. Moreover, just like your league has, let it go already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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