HowboutthemCowboys Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If there is a tie in H2H, how do you decide when playoff time comes around? You can't put the season on hold for two teams to play each other again to break the tie.then it goes to total pts, and then it's ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) If there is a tie in H2H, how do you decide when playoff time comes around? You can't put the season on hold for two teams to play each other again to break the tie. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference (if applicable). Best net points in common games. Best net points in all games. Coin toss Edited December 9, 2015 by Def. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Oh I get it ... for some reason you play H2H format during the season ... throw H2H format out the window for tie-breakers ... then revert back to H2H format for the playoffs. That is inconsistent. If you like total points you should play total points. I realize you are arguing this for the sake of arguing it, but, I play H2H as I enjoy the competitive nature that it brings to that individual week. I also play in total points leagues, best ball leagues, redraft, keeper, auction, draft etc., a wide variety as I like the different challenges each format presents. Now, my goal is that if I play in a league that has playoffs (some leagues just play throughout the season, best record at the end wins), I want the best teams over the course of the season to be the ones that get into the playoffs, not the team that had a fluke victory one week. To quote you, the goal is to score the most points each week, or start the player you think will score more, etc. I'd prefer to reward the team that did that more consistently over a larger sample size. Perhaps a hybrid approach - take the H2H record if the tied teams had played each other every week. It removes the massive luck factor of looking at one arbitrary week, but still makes it about the H2H battle of those two teams over the course of the season and rewards the one that was arguably the better team when the luck factor of the schedule is removed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) I realize you are arguing this for the sake of arguing it, but, I play H2H as I enjoy the competitive nature that it brings to that individual week. I also play in total points leagues, best ball leagues, redraft, keeper, auction, draft etc., a wide variety as I like the different challenges each format presents. Now, my goal is that if I play in a league that has playoffs (some leagues just play throughout the season, best record at the end wins), I want the best teams over the course of the season to be the ones that get into the playoffs, not the team that had a fluke victory one week. To quote you, the goal is to score the most points each week, or start the player you think will score more, etc. I'd prefer to reward the team that did that more consistently over a larger sample size. Perhaps a hybrid approach - take the H2H record if the tied teams had played each other every week. It removes the massive luck factor of looking at one arbitrary week, but still makes it about the H2H battle of those two teams over the course of the season and rewards the one that was arguably the better team when the luck factor of the schedule is removed. If H2H wins don't matter in tie-breakers why bother with H2H at all? The whole point of a H2H league is to win your H2H matchups. But now that we are talking tie-breakers it isn't enough that I won my H2H matchup anymore? That is silly. Especially if the total points are close enough to be largely irrelevant. You keep saying you want the best teams in the playoffs ... in a H2H format the best teams are the ones that won the most H2H matchups. If your goal is to get the best teams into the playoffs then you should play total points. H2H means H2H. In addition total points isn't necessarily and accurate indication of the best teams at the time of playoffs. A team's total points could be skewed by 3 weeks of exceptional performance and 10 weeks of average performance. Edited December 9, 2015 by Grits and Shins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin_Akie Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) If H2H wins don't matter in tie-breakers why bother with H2H at all? The whole point of a H2H league is to win your H2H matchups. But now that we are talking tie-breakers it isn't enough that I won my H2H matchup anymore? That is silly. Especially if the total points are close enough to be largely irrelevant. You keep saying you want the best teams in the playoffs ... in a H2H format the best teams are the ones that won the most H2H matchups. If your goal is to get the best teams into the playoffs then you should play total points. H2H means H2H. In addition total points isn't necessarily and accurate indication of the best teams at the time of playoffs. A team's total points could be skewed by 3 weeks of exceptional performance and 10 weeks of average performance. But thats still better than a tiebreaker being skewed by one bad week where you happened to be playing the owner who you are tied with. What happens if the week you lost you had 2-3 studs on bye and he had a full roster to choose from? Doesn't prove he's better than you, just that he got lucky with the week he got to play you. At the end of the day it isn't really for us to say whether you should use H2H record or pts scored. Its down to the owners in the league to vote. Edited December 9, 2015 by Dolphin_Akie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If you play H2H format then your tie-breakers should be H2H. If you don't like the H2H format then your league should be total points in the first place. Again ... if you don't like H2H format why do you play H2H format. In H2H format tie breakers should be consistent with the league format. And again I say if you don't like H2H format you shouldn't play H2H format. If you like total points you should play total points. If H2H wins don't matter in tie-breakers why bother with H2H at all? You do realize that, when setting up a league on any league hosting site, the format and the tie-breakers are entirely separate configuration options, right? Just because you select a particular format, you are not locked into an identical tie-breaker. This incessant repetition of the same opinion that you keep tossing around as fact is a very poor form of argument. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 At the end of the day it isn't really for us to say whether you should use H2H record or pts scored. Its down to the owners in the league to vote. yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Smales Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I am really curious about those who are arguing against the H2H as a tiebreaker how your league playoffs are set up. H2H or a total points contest over 2 or 3 weeks? As for the OP we take the top team from the 3 then apply the tiebreak process from the top again and yes we use H2H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I am really curious about those who are arguing against the H2H as a tiebreaker how your league playoffs are set up. H2H or a total points contest over 2 or 3 weeks? As for the OP we take the top team from the 3 then apply the tiebreak process from the top again and yes we use H2H. No one is arguing against head to head as a tie breaker (maybe some are). The issue for me is when head to head is tied. AND if a league does use total points to determine ties, that's the league's prerogative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin_Akie Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 No one is arguing against head to head as a tie breaker (maybe some are). The issue for me is when head to head is tied. AND if a league does use total points to determine ties, that's the league's prerogative. Yeah, I think the original debate is what happens after one team wins the tiebreaker and you're left with two teams. Start the tiebreaking procedure again (back to H2H) or continue using points scored you used to break the original three way tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraft896 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I think something that you all need to think about who are saying you don't like H2H because it prevents from being rewarded or penalized for a "fluky week." I would agree with you if we were talking about teams that are fighting for the last place in the league, but we aren't. We are talking about teams fighting for a playoff spot. You don't fluke yourself to 7 or 8 wins (the number usually required to make the playoffs) so I think that argument is pretty flawed. If you had a lot of players on bye the week you played against the team you are tied with, I have no sympathy. It is just another unlucky aspect of this game which makes it so fun. There are so many things that go into playing in H2H fantasy football. Sometimes you will play a lesser receiver because the guy you are playing has the quarterback and you want to counteract some of the points. Or maybe you start a running back on the same team as his wide receiver because you know that if your guy produces it will limit the value of his wide receiver. Or maybe you decide to sit a running back in the same scenario because you fear his guy will steal production. Maybe you start a defense that is against a couple of their players to double up if they do bad. Maybe you are playing one of the highest scorers in the league so you play a lot of boom or bust guys. You say there is no defense, but there are ways to counter their lineup. If you play through an entire season under the pretense of it is you versus another person then that should be how you determine who gets in the playoffs. You are telling me if I beat someone H2H and he outscores me throughout the course of a season by 15 points he deserves to be in the playoffs and I don't? Points can be even flukier than H2H. Lets say I start off the season 5-0 then Leveon Bell gets hurt and I scramble the rest of the season trying to find a running back to fill his place and only end up with 7 wins. Now I am tied with a guy that I beat early on that just picked up Thomas Rawls and Buck Allen at the end of the year so he scored big the last couple weeks and over took my team by 15 points. No, I am sorry but he does not deserve to be in the playoffs over me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 This times a million My preferred standings sort criteria: 1. Overall Winning Percentage 2. All Play Record 3. Total Points Scored It would be about one in a million that you still have a tie after that, but if you do, then go to H2H. Interesting never considered an all play record as a possible tie breaker. Do you see that yielding much different results than just using total points? Hmm, just looked at this in my own league and was interested with the results, while the top 3 in total points are also top 3 in all play, 2/3 spots are flipped on the two lists. But 5th place in points is 8th in all play, and vice versa. The bottom 4 are similar to top 3, with one spot swapped between 2. I'd suggest this for our league but I doubt it would go thru, most owners don't really look much at the all play (on CBS its part of Standings area and labeled Breakdown) record much while we do pay attention to the total points as its tied to another money pot and also prominently displayed on the standings page. Ok, just checked CBS site page, that isn't even an option for a tiebreaker, they are limited to Winning Percentage, Total Points, Division Record, Points Against, Head To Head Record Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I could not disagree more. The H2H format facilitates individual weekly matchups and the taco talking that comes along with that. I personally enjoy looking forward to certain matchups with my top rivals and making moves to block their acquisitions for those weeks, sometimes at the expense of a current matchup with a lesser opponent. I find season long total points to be incredibly boring and would rather just do it as a best ball league and not have to manage it. That said, when it comes to tie-breakers, the best team should get into the playoffs, not the team that just happened to have the better score in a random week. All play record or total points is far more indicative of who has the better team than a H2H tie-breaker. Agree completely, the idea that just because you play H2H you must use a H2H record as tie breaker is silly. (No different than saying "you have divisions so division record must be a tie breaker." We do that but some others have divisions and ignore division record. When we had H2H it in our tie breakers well over 90% of the time it came into play it was skipped over, because it was a tie between 2 teams in a division, who played twice and split 1-1. That was a big contributor to us removing it, plus we felt it couldn't be applied to more than 2 teams properly. And as BC said the overall record is already full of that randomonness of who played who on what week, we all see those teams in our league who lose a handful of games and end up with worse records but have far superior total points (their points against are usually one of the highest). So why pile on top of that with H2H record as a tie breaker just adds to the randomness and punishes a team that just faced a lot of teams going off. The result is some team you played once in another division and got beat with their best game ever makes it instead of you while their all play or total are far inferior. Again, there is no right or wrong way. Whatever each league and their owners agree to is perfectly acceptable. If you don't like the rules you'll find other leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Interesting never considered an all play record as a possible tie breaker. Do you see that yielding much different results than just using total points? Hmm, just looked at this in my own league and was interested with the results, while the top 3 in total points are also top 3 in all play, 2/3 spots are flipped on the two lists. But 5th place in points is 8th in all play, and vice versa. The bottom 4 are similar to top 3, with one spot swapped between 2. I'd suggest this for our league but I doubt it would go thru, most owners don't really look much at the all play (on CBS its part of Standings area and labeled Breakdown) record much while we do pay attention to the total points as its tied to another money pot and also prominently displayed on the standings page. Ok, just checked CBS site page, that isn't even an option for a tiebreaker, they are limited to Winning Percentage, Total Points, Division Record, Points Against, Head To Head Record I really like all-play as a tie breaker. It is a good marriage of points and H2H. I would guess that the teams in your league that finish lower in all-play than in total points are the boom/bust type teams and the teams that finish higher are more consistent. I had never thought of it before, but I also like Big Country's idea of an all-season H2H tie-breaker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Again ... if you don't like H2H format why do you play H2H format. In H2H format tie breakers should be consistent with the league format. The rules should be whatever the league agrees to, not what you, BC, BA, I or anybody else here thinks they should be. Quit this nonsense that there is some perfect or right way to do things. We get it you think there is only one way to do things, that is the Grits way. Anybody who does it different is just wrong. Just another case of Grits being obtuse and failing to accept that anybody has a valid point. I get it, I can be a bit stubborn as well. But not to this extent, and not with this kind of topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin_Akie Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I think something that you all need to think about who are saying you don't like H2H because it prevents from being rewarded or penalized for a "fluky week." I would agree with you if we were talking about teams that are fighting for the last place in the league, but we aren't. We are talking about teams fighting for a playoff spot. You don't fluke yourself to 7 or 8 wins (the number usually required to make the playoffs) so I think that argument is pretty flawed. If you had a lot of players on bye the week you played against the team you are tied with, I have no sympathy. It is just another unlucky aspect of this game which makes it so fun. There are so many things that go into playing in H2H fantasy football. Sometimes you will play a lesser receiver because the guy you are playing has the quarterback and you want to counteract some of the points. Or maybe you start a running back on the same team as his wide receiver because you know that if your guy produces it will limit the value of his wide receiver. Or maybe you decide to sit a running back in the same scenario because you fear his guy will steal production. Maybe you start a defense that is against a couple of their players to double up if they do bad. Maybe you are playing one of the highest scorers in the league so you play a lot of boom or bust guys. You say there is no defense, but there are ways to counter their lineup. If you play through an entire season under the pretense of it is you versus another person then that should be how you determine who gets in the playoffs. You are telling me if I beat someone H2H and he outscores me throughout the course of a season by 15 points he deserves to be in the playoffs and I don't? Points can be even flukier than H2H. Lets say I start off the season 5-0 then Leveon Bell gets hurt and I scramble the rest of the season trying to find a running back to fill his place and only end up with 7 wins. Now I am tied with a guy that I beat early on that just picked up Thomas Rawls and Buck Allen at the end of the year so he scored big the last couple weeks and over took my team by 15 points. No, I am sorry but he does not deserve to be in the playoffs over me. Have to disagree. We have a guy who is 8-5 in our 12 team league, if he wins his final game then he is in the playoffs for certain. He's 11th in scoring and 11th in all play record but all he needs is a win against a bottom half opponent to make the playoffs. Its been a running joke that he has no right to be there except for being incredibly lucky with the schedule. I personally feel that if its down to pts scored then it could even out some of this luck because he basically he has to win a game more than the other contenders to make the playoffs, if its H2H he'd have a far better chance of beating someone on a tiebreaker (its a five way tie currently so no idea who'd be ahead if it was H2H tiebreaker). Even the person who is last in scoring and all play record is 6-7 and 8th in standings whilst the guy in 10th is 5th in scoring. Been a screwy year. But again we voted for this method of tiebreaker so everyone is happy with it so I wouldn't criticize another league for wanting H2H. As I said before its what your league is happy with and as long as the tiebreakers are decided pre-season and are not changed mid-season then its all good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraft896 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Have to disagree. We have a guy who is 8-5 in our 12 team league, if he wins his final game then he is in the playoffs for certain. He's 11th in scoring and 11th in all play record but all he needs is a win against a bottom half opponent to make the playoffs. Its been a running joke that he has no right to be there except for being incredibly lucky with the schedule. I personally feel that if its down to pts scored then it could even out some of this luck because he basically he has to win a game more than the other contenders to make the playoffs, if its H2H he'd have a far better chance of beating someone on a tiebreaker (its a five way tie currently so no idea who'd be ahead if it was H2H tiebreaker). Even the person who is last in scoring and all play record is 6-7 and 8th in standings whilst the guy in 10th is 5th in scoring. Been a screwy year. But again we voted for this method of tiebreaker so everyone is happy with it so I wouldn't criticize another league for wanting H2H. As I said before its what your league is happy with and as long as the tiebreakers are decided pre-season and are not changed mid-season then its all good. Yeah it is always a bummer when that happens. I agree that there is not a perfect system, but we don't play a perfect game and I think that is what makes it fun. I think if everyone agrees on a system that is as perfect as it can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Yeah it is always a bummer when that happens. I agree that there is not a perfect system, but we don't play a perfect game and I think that is what makes it fun. I think if everyone agrees on a system that is as perfect as it can get. I can agree with that as a valid reason to do H2H tie-breakers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loaf Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I lost out on the H2H tiebreaker with the team that had their fluky week against me...remember the week that Brees had like 6 TDs...yeah, that's the week I played this other team. I had Eli but lost. He made it into the playoffs because we tied in record. I had more points but he won based on that tiebreaker. I don't begrudge him the entry in, it's how we play. I knew going in to week 13 it was win and his loss and I'm in..he knew that he had to tie my record or win to be in. We're all good with it. And ultimately, that's what it comes down to. If you don't like the rules, find a league whose rules you do like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) I really like all-play as a tie breaker. It is a good marriage of points and H2H. I would guess that the teams in your league that finish lower in all-play than in total points are the boom/bust type teams and the teams that finish higher are more consistent. I had never thought of it before, but I also like Big Country's idea of an all-season H2H tie-breaker. We use points as a tie breaker, not H2H, BUT I never considered all play as a tie breaker. It's definitely worth considering. I just want the best teams in the playoffs. Edited December 9, 2015 by Shaft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 The rules should be whatever the league agrees to, not what you, BC, BA, I or anybody else here thinks they should be. Quit this nonsense that there is some perfect or right way to do things. We get it you think there is only one way to do things, that is the Grits way. Anybody who does it different is just wrong. Just another case of Grits being obtuse and failing to accept that anybody has a valid point. I get it, I can be a bit stubborn as well. But not to this extent, and not with this kind of topic. See I didn't get that at all. I agree with the point that not using H2H as a tiebreaker in a H2H league trivializes the matchups. Believe someone said they like to manure talk about the matchups, well what is the point if they are not being used when it matters most? Not saying that its wrong to have other ways, just agreeing that the H2H plays should matter IMO. And for those that keep bringing up luck as a reason to not use H2H, whats the saying about fantasy football being 80% luck, with the other 15% being luck, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I am really curious about those who are arguing against the H2H as a tiebreaker how your league playoffs are set up. H2H or a total points contest over 2 or 3 weeks? As for the OP we take the top team from the 3 then apply the tiebreak process from the top again and yes we use H2H. I don't care for the H2H as a tiebreaker and explained why we quit using it in other posts. Our playoffs are just like the regular season, H2H games between the teams, top 2 get a bye, each of the 3 weeks has 2 H2H games to reduce the field and in the final week settle the championship and 3rd place (more $ than 4th). I think something that you all need to think about who are saying you don't like H2H because it prevents from being rewarded or penalized for a "fluky week." I would agree with you if we were talking about teams that are fighting for the last place in the league, but we aren't. We are talking about teams fighting for a playoff spot. You don't fluke yourself to 7 or 8 wins (the number usually required to make the playoffs) so I think that argument is pretty flawed. If you had a lot of players on bye the week you played against the team you are tied with, I have no sympathy. It is just another unlucky aspect of this game which makes it so fun. 12 team league, 6 teams make the playoffs, 2 of our teams had 6 wins, one had a tie, the other was in a 4 way tie at 6-7. We don't use H2H as a tie breaker, and I suspect if we did a different team would have made it. We use division record (for teams in same division) which was also tied for the 2 in same division. The 4 teams involved may not have even all played each other (we play all but one team). I was one of the 2 teams in the division, here is our H2H records (games involving these 4 teams) and total points A - 2-2 1062 (me) B - 2-2 1088 (other team in my division [A]) C - 1-2 1210 (division - second highst points, also second highest against D - 2-1 1109 (division C) (strangely the high score team had the most scored against it as well) Teams A&B played twice and split, also split their games with C/D, while C/D played one against each of the 3 teams. Using H2H team D gets in, probably 2nd most deserving based on their points and overall play this year. Using total points team B gets in and is by far the most deserving. They finished at 6-7, division winner was 8-5 and scored about 150 fewer points, and had over 200 fewer points scored against them. They played nearly identical schedules being in the same division (similar to NFL). It is our belief that total points is the best indicator of the better team, so we use that. Others are free to disagree and do something different, including use H2H or anything else. Nobody is right or wrong. PS I suggest people just stop arguing with Grits, he is just playing contrarian or being seriously obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 See I didn't get that at all. I agree with the point that not using H2H as a tiebreaker in a H2H league trivializes the matchups. Believe someone said they like to taco talk about the matchups, well what is the point if they are not being used when it matters most? Not saying that its wrong to have other ways, just agreeing that the H2H plays should matter IMO. And for those that keep bringing up luck as a reason to not use H2H, whats the saying about fantasy football being 80% luck, with the other 15% being luck, etc... H2H play matters because it is what determines your overall (and division if used/relevant) record. I don't get how not using it for a tie breaker trivializes something that is still a huge part of the standings. It just doesn't let it be an even bigger part of determining who is best. We kind of like to emulate the NFL when possible, and that is why we originally included H2H. But as others have pointed out, that isn't relavent in fantasy like it is in the NFL. In the end, whatever works for your league is all that matters. Almost everybody here gets that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Have to disagree. We have a guy who is 8-5 in our 12 team league, if he wins his final game then he is in the playoffs for certain. He's 11th in scoring and 11th in all play record but all he needs is a win against a bottom half opponent to make the playoffs. Its been a running joke that he has no right to be there except for being incredibly lucky with the schedule. I personally feel that if its down to pts scored then it could even out some of this luck because he basically he has to win a game more than the other contenders to make the playoffs, if its H2H he'd have a far better chance of beating someone on a tiebreaker (its a five way tie currently so no idea who'd be ahead if it was H2H tiebreaker). Even the person who is last in scoring and all play record is 6-7 and 8th in standings whilst the guy in 10th is 5th in scoring. Been a screwy year. But again we voted for this method of tiebreaker so everyone is happy with it so I wouldn't criticize another league for wanting H2H. As I said before its what your league is happy with and as long as the tiebreakers are decided pre-season and are not changed mid-season then its all good. we use total season points as a tiebreaker because H2H just involves too much luck sometimes. There has simply got to be some reward for consistency in putting up points during the regular season. That's why we prefer total points over H2H for tiebreaks. It gives the team who played better season-long that last opportunity over another team that couldn't score as much for the season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 we use total season points as a tiebreaker because H2H just involves too much luck sometimes. There has simply got to be some reward for consistency in putting up points during the regular season. That's why we prefer total points over H2H for tiebreaks. It gives the team who played better season-long that last opportunity over another team that couldn't score as much for the season. So in the end my H2H win over you is irrelevant if we are tied and the fact that you have 2 more points on the season than I do trumps my H2H victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.