phenom Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Chief Dick broke it down perfectly. Vick makes his team a winner and does more with less than any player in the league IMO. BTW, Vick is currently the highest-paid player in the NFL and is about 1/3 the passer that Manning is.Manning has beaten the Patriots on multiple occasions. Do your homework next time. 666253[/snapback] Manning vs Patriots 1998 Lost 6-29 Lost 16-21 1999 Lost 28-31 Won 20-15 2000 Lost 16-24 Won 30-23 2001 Lost 13-44 Lost 17-38 2002 Did not play Patriots and Peyton is still sending the NFL schedulers thank you cards for that 2003 Lost 34-38 Playoff's Lost 14-24 2004 Lost 24-27 Playoff's 3-20 Aggregate regular season score 204-290 Aggregate playoff season score 17-44 Total record vs Patriots 2-10 (0-2 in the playoff's). So I guess if you get technical you can say Manning has beaten the Patriots multiple times if you consider twice multiple times. Also Vick's contract is 130 million for 10 years. Which means his per year avg is going to be 13 million a year. Manning's contract is 99 million for 7 years, making his contract average over 14 mill a year. Manning also got 34.5 mill for signing and an additional 19 mill in bonus money. Also with the Falcons signed Vick to a salary cap friendly contract just like the Colts did with Manning. Plus the Falcons have Keith Brooking and Patrick Kerney signed for at least 3 more years so they are taking care of the defensive side of the ball as well, unlike the Colts who keep signing WR's to contract extensions............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Also with the Falcons signed Vick to a salary cap friendly contract just like the Colts did with Manning. 666304[/snapback] Funny how record-breaking contracts were a sign of selfishness last year, but are OK now after Vick signed one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Funny how record-breaking contracts were a sign of selfishness last year, but are OK now after Vick signed one. 666312[/snapback] Atlanta has a defense, once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Atlanta has a defense, once again. 666313[/snapback] Yep, and they ranked a stellar 14th in the league this season playing a fourth-place schedule against crappy NFC teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Total record vs Patriots 2-10 (0-2 in the playoff's). So I guess if you get technical you can say Manning has beaten the Patriots multiple times if you consider twice multiple times. Also Vick's contract is 130 million for 10 years. Which means his per year avg is going to be 13 million a year. Manning's contract is 99 million for 7 years, making his contract average over 14 mill a year. Manning also got 34.5 mill for signing and an additional 19 mill in bonus money. Also with the Falcons signed Vick to a salary cap friendly contract just like the Colts did with Manning. Plus the Falcons have Keith Brooking and Patrick Kerney signed for at least 3 more years so they are taking care of the defensive side of the ball as well, unlike the Colts who keep signing WR's to contract extensions............ 666304[/snapback] How many other players/teams have had success against the Pats in the last few years? Since when does success against one team make or break you as a great player? What in the hell does a player's contract or how the team spends their money have to do with the individual quality of a player? Don't tell me Vick doesn't have a supporting cast on O because in case you didn't notice they rushed for 300+ yds last week. Oh, and by the way... LT or Julius Peppers 666297[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 (edited) Yep, and they ranked a stellar 14th in the league this season playing a fourth-place schedule against crappy NFC teams. 666316[/snapback] They could always be around 29th with only one key player on defense. If Vick had a huge contract with that, then it would be selfish. Especially if he always choked in the playoffs against the same team. Edited January 22, 2005 by WaterMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Funny how record-breaking contracts were a sign of selfishness last year, but are OK now after Vick signed one. 666312[/snapback] It's funny how that's all you have to say when some research is put in your face. Last time Manning beat the Patriots anytime was 4 years ago. He also has never beaten the Patriots at New England. Also for that lame excuse about how no one has beaten the Patriots in the playoff's; the Colts can't beat the Jets or Dolphins in the playoff's either since Manning's been around. Manning has a specific type game for the playoff's; he has to be at home (or at least indoors) or he has to play a team with no defense ala the Chiefs. By the way doesn't Vick own Peppers for his entire career? Vick is 5-1 against Carolina........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 It's funny how that's all you have to say when some research is put in your face. 666324[/snapback] I think it's funnier that you still don't know basic rules of the English language... beaten the Patriots in the playoff's; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 (edited) By the way doesn't Vick own Peppers for his entire career? Vick is 5-1 against Carolina........... 666324[/snapback] What's with the team record comparisons? Dallas has owned the Redskins for several years. Does that make either Vinny or Quincy better than Lavar Arrington? Of course not. It's a stupid, completely irrelevant point. Edited January 22, 2005 by BS Miscreant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 How many other players/teams have had success against the Pats in the last few years? Since when does success against one team make or break you as a great player? What in the hell does a player's contract or how the team spends their money have to do with the individual quality of a player? Don't tell me Vick doesn't have a supporting cast on O because in case you didn't notice they rushed for 300+ yds last week.Oh, and by the way... 666317[/snapback] Teams that have had success against the Pats Miami is 3-5 against them since 2001 Denver is 2-1 against them since 2001 Oakland is 1-1 against them since 2001 So it can be done. It's just that Manning can't do it. And I can't think of one great QB that had one team that could just shut him down. I don't think the Patriots could shut Montana, Elway, Favre, Young or even Aikman down consistently. But that's what's happened to Manning. How can you be the best when everyone knows your weakness? I think the quality of the player determines the quality of the contract. Don't you agree? No Vick does not have anywhere near the supporting cast of any of the other playoff teams. The only other team that I think has playmakers on par with Atlanta's is Philly. Mcnabb does a lot with some weak WR's but he had TO this year and he had his best year. The Jets also have some weak WR's but they have the leading rusher in Martin this year. If you think Dunn is so good why is this his first 1,000 yard season since 2001? What happened last year when Vick was out; oh yeah he gained a whole 672 yards. Duckett is just a good change of pace back who gets injured a little too much. Price is too soft, he's already complained about getting double teamed. The Falcons should lean more to Michael Jenkins and Brian Finneran as the wideouts and put Price in just to spread out the defense.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 What's with the team record comparisons? Dallas has owned the Redskins for several years. Does that make either Vinny or Quincy better than Lavar Arrington? Of course not. It's a stupid, completely irrelevant point. 666345[/snapback] of course it is, but then the idiots wouldn't have anything to say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I think it's funnier that you still don't know basic rules of the English language... 666330[/snapback] It's funny that you think I care about that when it's so obvious you are trying to divert away from Manning's failings. Oh look no apostrope! Oh look I left out the H in apostrophe Oh look I left a period off that last sentence. Oh what shall we ever do! Oh woe is the Huddle............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 (edited) It's funny that you think I care about that when it's so obvious you are trying to divert away from Manning's failings. Oh look no apostrope! Oh look I left out the H in apostrophe Oh look I left a period off that last sentence. Oh what shall we ever do! Oh woe is the Huddle............. 666359[/snapback] No, I just don't care to discuss Manning with you because I know that you're an ignoramus. The fact that you consistently butcher the English language in your posts is proof of this. Edited January 22, 2005 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 What's with the team record comparisons? Dallas has owned the Redskins for several years. Does that make either Vinny or Quincy better than Lavar Arrington? Of course not. It's a stupid, completely irrelevant point. 666345[/snapback] It's peon's illogical attempt to give man-love to Vick. It's also a poorly-executed jab at me for making him look like a clown earlier this season (read his sig line). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 (edited) It's peon's illogical attempt to give man-love to Vick. It's also a poorly-executed jab at me for making him look like a clown earlier this season (read his sig line). 666368[/snapback] Actually it was more of a right cross to the nose because of your supposed superiority complex when you say people should do more research. Well I did the research and your idea of Manning beating the Patriots multiple times is 2. And your just mad that Vick is playing and the only way you can see Manning is when he is screaming cut that meat......... Just to edit it's funny that your idea of the two best players at their respective positions aren't playing anymore.......... Edited January 22, 2005 by phenom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Actually it was more of a right cross to the nose because of your supposed superiority complex when you say people should do more research. Well I did the research and your idea of Manning beating the Patriots multiple times is 2. 666372[/snapback] And what I said was 100% correct. Do you dispute that, momo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Most QBs suck ballz when they are separated from their legs. 665841[/snapback] It doesn't help RBs or WRs either. They can't seem to keep their feet under them without legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 And what I said was 100% correct. Do you dispute that, momo? 666373[/snapback] No koko, I don't dispute that. I mean you can only have the lowest expectations for Manning. For him to win one playoff game a year is a success........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I mean you can only have the lowest expectations for Manning. 666377[/snapback] Similarly, I can only have "the lowest expectations" when discussing football with a half-wit like you. Have a nice day, (the really bad word)tard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 As far as best player goes, it's definitely arguable between many players. I base my choice on the impact the player would have on their team should they go down. That, to me, proves how much they mean to their teams. My vote would go to Vick. He's obviously not going to have the big numbers, but the guy is a flat out winner. He makes his team better; we all saw what happened last year after he went down. He also impacts what OTHER teams are going to do to try to stop him. As Vick goes, the Falcons go. You think about other good players, and you could argue their teams would still function fine without them. LT: We saw what Chatman could do when he was dinged up. The running game in San Diego was fine. Priest: Same thing, except Blaylock and Johnson carried the load. Heck, you could argue the Chiefs were better, because their second half of the season record was way better once Priest went down. Manning: Don't know yet, because he always plays, but we know his history in big games. Ray Lewis: That defense is so good that you could argue they would still be a quality defense without him. Moss: When he went down, the offense did suffer, but other receivers stepped up. Vick is the only one that I can think of where his loss means the team is DONE. That to me makes him the best player in the NFL right now. 665974[/snapback] While many have agreed with this point of view, I must respectfully disagree. Sorry about that, CD. But, what you're telling me is that if ATL had DCulpepper as their QB2, then MVick is no longer that good. I don't agree that a team's depth is relevant to a player's ability. I thought this thread was "Best NFL Player Today", not the MVP on a given team. That's a big difference. So, looking ONLY at MVick and PManning -- and not their teams, backups, defenses, etc... you're telling me that MVick is a better NFL Player today than PManning. Is that an accurate interpretation of what you're saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Johnies Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Go ahead. If you drink quickly enough, you might die of liver failure before you have the opportunity to reproduce. 666293[/snapback] That staement actually made me laugh. This entire exchange actually had a positive result. Keep it up Bill, you're on a roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Chief Dick exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Johnies Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 College football has what relevance to this discussion? And speaking of flip-flopping... 666298[/snapback] What's wrong with those statements? From a statistical point of view he might go down as the greatest of all time. He will have to battle Marino for the title. But he will always be a choke artist and will never be a SB hero like Brady or Montana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 If you want to just take football skills ie passing, running, making positive plays for your team, putting them in a position to win that makes it easy. Taking out who that player plays for and their individual situation focuses the question to a more obvious player. Easy comparison is to put that supposed best player on the worst team in the NFL and see how good would they be as a player and would they improve that team markedly. Now who is the worst team in the NFL? I think it would be either Miami or the 49ers hard to say but that's really irrelavant. So put Tomlinson, Mcnabb, Culpepper, Peppers, Vick, Manning, Holmes etc how well would they perform? Same, less or better. Well Manning would be out of the mix first IMO. He needs to develop a rapport with his team that takes years to build because half of his ability is audibling his offense into the right formation to take advantage of the defense. He also needs quality players at the RB, TE and WR positions to excel. Also besides throwing the ball he is really limited physically. He isn't going to make anything positive out of busted plays with his scrambling. Tomlinson would probably perform the same as he has done with the Chargers since they were the worst team until this year. But if he played for Miami or 49ers they probably wouldn't be that much better as a team. Peppers would probably be still a force on defense but would you really be able to tell the difference. Culpepper, Mcnabb and Vick are all in the same mold with Culpepper being the best passer of the 3, Vick being the best runner and Mcnabb combining both aspects the best. However Vicks individual FOOTBALL skills put him on that next level that would allow him to succeed in any situation. Whether he was in New England, Miami, Philly, Cincinatti or Atlanta he would always be considered one of the top NFL players. You can't say the same about the rest. Of course this is all just hypothetical football talk. Let's get it on with grammar lessons!............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 (edited) Atlanta has a defense, once again. 666313[/snapback] We'll see... It's funny that you think I care about that when it's so obvious you are trying to divert away from Manning's failings. Oh look no apostrope! Oh look I left out the H in apostrophe Oh look I left a period off that last sentence. Oh what shall we ever do! Oh woe is the Huddle............. 666359[/snapback] I actually stopped and looked for an apostrophe... Girl's Break it up.... Edited January 22, 2005 by SuperBalla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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