Is there really a subculture of dog fighting in the NFL?

[Big Score 1]

A prominent animal-rights group called on NFL commissioner Roger Goodell to ban players who are involved in dogfighting, saying it was especially troubled that officials reported finding evidence of the deadly activity at a home owned by Atlanta Falcons QB Michael Vick.

 

"We believe that the current situation involving Michael Vick is indicative of a larger subculture within the NFL of dogfighting and other forms of violence against animals," wrote Wayne Pacelle, chief executive officer of the Humane Society.

[The Irish Doggy]

Hes the most exciting player in the league.

[MikesVikes]

Assuming that Vick is involved in dog fighting, does that incriminate everyone else in the league? Those people are stupid.

[Muggsy]

This is Goodell's chance to show that his "character clause" really has teeth. Suspending a CB or backup WR for "conduct detrimental to the league" is one thing, but will he drop the hammer on a star QB? I'm guessing he folds and looks the other way, but he shouldn't. Pacman was never convicted of ANYTHING and got a full season, Vick has now had a couple incidents in the last few months, so this will show if Goodell has any balls.

[AtomicCEO]

Hes the most exciting player in the league.

 

 

[MikesVikes]

This will certainly hurt the Vick jersey $ales. Does anything else matter?

[cdrudge]

Pacman was never convicted of ANYTHING and got a full season, Vick has now had a couple incidents in the last few months, so this will show if Goodell has any balls.

Pacman hasn't been convicted, but he's been arrested 5 times (4 times within 14 months) has been questioned 10 times by police. Two of the arrests he failed to notify the Titans. Convictions or not, his conduct was detrimental to the league.

 

Vick has had two legal run ins recently, the water bottle and the dog fighting. Has there been something more? Sure he's done boneheaded moves that have been PR disasters (flipping off the crowd and the whole Ron Mexico thing), but those aren't arrests and/or convictions. I'm not a Vick sympathizer...I'm not even a fan of his. But I don't think Vick has gotten quite to the "conduct detrimental to the team" point that Chris Henry or Pacman are at. If it comes out that Vick admits to lying or proven that he did about being at the house and/or involved in dog fighting, then I expect the gavel to come down on him.

[isleseeya]

Its a ruff decision , but goddell should suspend him at least 4 games ...no place in society for dog fighting and certainly no place for NFL players to be involved in something so cruel and dumb

 

Edited to add :

Goddell has to shepard the league and this type of behavior has to be collared . Nfl has to show its teeth and nip this before it gets worse

Edited May 7, 2007 by isleseeya

[Pope Flick]

Let's keep in mind that Vick's "being involved with dogfighting" most likely -as yet unproven- means he was breeding and financing an operation to some extent. In other words, he's funding an illegal and immoral activity. Frankly, I hope they throw the book at him as an example, if he's guilty as charged. This Culture of Coddling for atheletes needs to stop.

 

Apparently, the rumors of this stuff have been floating out there for some time. Before anyone dismisses that Humane Society statements as bluster keep in mind they're probably closer to correct than you are: if Vick is funneling thousands of dollars into this you can expect he's not the only NFL player who enjoys this.

[The Wolf]

Let's keep in mind that Vick's "being involved with dogfighting" most likely -as yet unproven- means he was breeding and financing an operation to some extent. In other words, he's funding an illegal and immoral activity. Frankly, I hope they throw the book at him as an example, if he's guilty as charged. This Culture of Coddling for atheletes needs to stop.

 

Apparently, the rumors of this stuff have been floating out there for some time. Before anyone dismisses that Humane Society statements as bluster keep in mind they're probably closer to correct than you are: if Vick is funneling thousands of dollars into this you can expect he's not the only NFL player who enjoys this.

 

 

You may be correct but then again, you may not. It's not a good thing for the Humane Society to be making a statement implicating NFL players as a whole because of what one moran did. If they have proof and names, then name them. Otherwise, making that statement is completely arbitrary.

Edited May 7, 2007 by The Wolf

[Pope Flick]

You may be correct but then again, you may not. It's not a good thing for the Humane Society to be making a statement implicating NFL players as a whole because of what one moran did. If they have proof and names, then name them. Otherwise, making that statement is completely arbitrary.

 

 

Not to get dragged into this, but I've read statements saying they've known for a while about Vick's involvement. Now assuming that statement is true, then if they are saying they know of others they have some credibility on the issue. Taking that a step further, if they DO know other names, then the best thing is to NOT go public with them but let legal proceedings take their due course so no one gets unnecessarily smeared in the court of public opinion. If they are sitting on names, I applaud them for not going public but hopefully turning them over to the proper authorities.

 

Then again, the could be full of chit and have no one else to name. I kind of doubt taht though. This is their realm.

[Bill Swerski]

Pacman hasn't been convicted, but he's been arrested 5 times (4 times within 14 months) has been questioned 10 times by police. Two of the arrests he failed to notify the Titans. Convictions or not, his conduct was detrimental to the league.

 

Vick has had two legal run ins recently, the water bottle and the dog fighting. Has there been something more? Sure he's done boneheaded moves that have been PR disasters (flipping off the crowd and the whole Ron Mexico thing), but those aren't arrests and/or convictions. I'm not a Vick sympathizer...I'm not even a fan of his. But I don't think Vick has gotten quite to the "conduct detrimental to the team" point that Chris Henry or Pacman are at. If it comes out that Vick admits to lying or proven that he did about being at the house and/or involved in dog fighting, then I expect the gavel to come down on him.

 

One doesn't need to be convicted of a crime to be subject to punishment via the league. And that's a good thing, because I'm almost positive that Arthur Blank pulled some strings to get Vick off the hook when he tried to get his Josh Gordon and fake water bottle past the TSA.

 

And I completely agree that Vick should be suspended... for the animal abuse alone, IMO. But I doubt that Goodell will do anything until Vick is actually arrested again.

[kingfish247]

But I don't think Vick has gotten quite to the "conduct detrimental to the team" point that Chris Henry or Pacman are at. If it comes out that Vick admits to lying or proven that he did about being at the house and/or involved in dog fighting, then I expect the gavel to come down on him.

 

+1

I would also add it hasn't amounted to "conduct detrimental to the league" either.

 

A few things...

 

1) Owning a dog breeding business and being involved in dog fighting are not mutually exclusive.

 

2) This is not the first and certainly won't be the last time that a friend/family member has taken advantage of the generosity of a pro-athlete. It's entirely plausible that Vick has never so much as stepped foot on the property or knew of what was going on the property being used by his nephew. Does anyone here with nephews know what THEY are doing on a day-to-day basis? Week-to-week? Month-to-month?

 

3) If the Humane Society believed Vick was involved in dog fighting for a "long time" then why is this being brought up now? Yes his nephew was just caught but if they were so sure that Vick was directly involved then it's a bit disingenuous to bring this up now when property being used by his nephew was busted. The fact that Vick has been breeding dogs was public knowledge well before this stuff with his nephew. I don't remember any allegations from the Humane Society about THAT operation BEFORE this stuff with his nephew.

 

4) The Humane Society cites undercover sources that state unequivocally that it's common knowledge that Vick and other pro-players are directly involved. This is disingenuous too especially if these sources remain unnamed or none come forward. Last time I checked you were allowed to face/question your accuser in this country, at least in a court of law. Using the public forum to make accusations from unnamed sources is just as bad.

 

I'm not apologizing for Vick. He's been caught in some seriously boneheaded crap recently but, IMO, it does not amount to "conduct detrimental to the league." To the team is another story, that's something for the GM/Pres/HC to decide. I can definitely see how this is a distraction for the organization. Keyword: distraction because of the questions members of the organization have to field about the matters. Henry, Pacman, and Jared Allen's run-ins have amounted to MUCH more than a PR nightmare, a family member involved in illegal activity, and/or the accusations of an NGO/interest group.

[kingfish247]

...because I'm almost positive that Arthur Blank pulled some strings to get Vick off the hook when he tried to get his Josh Gordon and fake water bottle past the TSA.

 

Because Art Blank is above the law, TSA, Miami Police, and the Miami DA?

 

Even Ollie Stone couldn't make a 3 hour movie about this and not get laughed out of town.

[Pope Flick]

+1

I would also add it hasn't amounted to "conduct detrimental to the league" either.

 

A few things...

 

1) Owning a dog breeding business and being involved in dog fighting are not mutually exclusive.

 

2) This is not the first and certainly won't be the last time that a friend/family member has taken advantage of the generosity of a pro-athlete. It's entirely plausible that Vick has never so much as stepped foot on the property or knew of what was going on the property being used by his nephew. Does anyone here with nephews know what THEY are doing on a day-to-day basis? Week-to-week? Month-to-month?

 

3) If the Humane Society believed Vick was involved in dog fighting for a "long time" then why is this being brought up now? Yes his nephew was just caught but if they were so sure that Vick was directly involved then it's a bit disingenuous to bring this up now when property being used by his nephew was busted. The fact that Vick has been breeding dogs was public knowledge well before this stuff with his nephew. I don't remember any allegations from the Humane Society about THAT operation BEFORE this stuff with his nephew.

 

4) The Humane Society cites undercover sources that state unequivocally that it's common knowledge that Vick and other pro-players are directly involved. This is disingenuous too especially if these sources remain unnamed or none come forward. Last time I checked you were allowed to face/question your accuser in this country, at least in a court of law. Using the public forum to make accusations from unnamed sources is just as bad.

 

I'm not apologizing for Vick. He's been caught in some seriously boneheaded crap recently but, IMO, it does not amount to "conduct detrimental to the league." To the team is another story, that's something for the GM/Pres/HC to decide. I can definitely see how this is a distraction for the organization. Keyword: distraction because of the questions members of the organization have to field about the matters. Henry, Pacman, and Jared Allen's run-ins have amounted to MUCH more than a PR nightmare, a family member involved in illegal activity, and/or the accusations of an NGO/interest group.

 

 

 

But if his nephew is fronting a business that he's financing, all of what you said doesn't amount to much. Unless the nephew is under a lease, Vick is responsible for what happens on his property, and that's BEFORE you get to his providing the financial backing for said enterprise, which further digs him into culpability.

 

 

 

 

Because Art Blank is above the law, TSA, Miami Police, and the Miami DA?

 

Even Ollie Stone couldn't make a 3 hour movie about this and not get laughed out of town.

 

Arthuer blank is a BILLIONAIRE that owns Home Depot. Keep in mind the timeline of that bust was: Day 1: we have found a substance that will take several weeks to test. Day 3: there was a misunderstanding, there was no substance it was all a misunderstanding. Right. He got him off a misdemeanor. mayos do that all the time.

Edited May 7, 2007 by Pope Flick

[kingfish247]

But if his nephew is fronting a business that he's financing, all of what you said doesn't amount to much. Unless the nephew is under a lease, Vick is responsible for what happens on his property, and that's BEFORE you get to his providing the financial backing for said enterprise, which further digs him into culpability.

I'd say what you're saying here doesn't amount to much either. His nephew isn't fronting the dog breeding business. Where did you come up with that? Why would Mike Vick and his attorney make it publicly known that he had a perfectly legal dog breeding business if he was going to be directly involved in illegal dog fighting?

 

Seems to me you wouldn't allow your dog breeding enterprise to be Googled if it was commonly know that you were into breeding dogs for illegal purposes. Also, dog breeding for illegal purposes tend to not care too much about AKC certification.

 

Arthuer blank is a BILLIONAIRE that owns Home Depot. Keep in mind the timeline of that bust was: Day 1: we have found a substance that will take several weeks to test. Day 3: there was a misunderstanding, there was no substance it was all a misunderstanding. Right. He got him off a misdemeanor. mayos do that all the time.

 

I'd say what you're saying here doesn't amount to much either. Tell me Art Blank's son is the Miami DA or the head of the Miami Police or runs the Miami TSA. Having billions of dollars doesn't make you above the law. It might help but it's not de facto. Misunderstandings don't happen when the TSA, Police, and DA are involved? Gimme a break. Let me know when you spot the silent black helicopters or you've cracked the Roswell incident. This type of accusation is on the same level as what the Humane Society is doing... accusing Art Blank, the head of a billion dollar company, of bribery/extortion or influence peddling involving law enforcement are serious accusations and if true warrant a look by the FBI and the Justice Dept.

[Bill Swerski]

I'd say what you're saying here doesn't amount to much either. His nephew isn't fronting the dog breeding business. Where did you come up with that? Why would Mike Vick and his attorney make it publicly known that he had a perfectly legal dog breeding business if he was going to be directly involved in illegal dog fighting?

 

If there was evidence of massive animal abuse on property that Vick owns, that would be enough to bring him up on charges in most states/counties.

 

I'd say what you're saying here doesn't amount to much either. Tell me Art Blank's son is the Miami DA or the head of the Miami Police or runs the Miami TSA. Having billions of dollars doesn't make you above the law.

 

LOL. Two words: Ted Kennedy

 

Money and power are most definitely useful when it comes to charges getting dropped or knocked down to a ridiculous misdemeanor.

[BeeR]

As I said elsewhere:

 

 

I'm not totally sold on Gooden's "tough guy" bit just yet (and "tough" from a pro sports GM perspective is relative anyway, ie relatively weak). If Vick is proven to have known about this cruelty and allowed it in a home he owned, he should be expelled from the league. Period. But that will never happen to any player for such an offense, least of all Vick, who remains really popular despite one hell of an effort to eliminate any justification for it, both personally and sport-wise.

 

Cmon, if a player can cover up murders, sell hard drugs, beat up women (etc etc) and be allowed to play, there isn't much leeway left to give. Pro sports are a total joke when it comes to player discipline. The inmates have run the asylum for a long time, and it's mostly because of the almighty dollar. So don't hold your breath about much happening to Vick.

 

/soapbox

[The Wolf]

As I said elsewhere:

I'm not totally sold on Gooden's "tough guy" bit just yet (and "tough" from a pro sports GM perspective is relative anyway, ie relatively weak). If Vick is proven to have known about this cruelty and allowed it in a home he owned, he should be expelled from the league. Period. But that will never happen to any player for such an offense, least of all Vick, who remains really popular despite one hell of an effort to eliminate any justification for it, both personally and sport-wise.

 

Cmon, if a player can cover up murders, sell hard drugs, beat up women (etc etc) and be allowed to play, there isn't much leeway left to give. Pro sports are a total joke when it comes to player discipline. The inmates have run the asylum for a long time, and it's mostly because of the almighty dollar. So don't hold your breath about much happening to Vick.

 

/soapbox

 

 

+1...I completely agree here. It's sad and it is a shame, but it is very true. And not just with athletes either.

[Pope Flick]

I'd say what you're saying here doesn't amount to much either. His nephew isn't fronting the dog breeding business. Where did you come up with that? Why would Mike Vick and his attorney make it publicly known that he had a perfectly legal dog breeding business if he was going to be directly involved in illegal dog fighting?

 

Seems to me you wouldn't allow your dog breeding enterprise to be Googled if it was commonly know that you were into breeding dogs for illegal purposes. Also, dog breeding for illegal purposes tend to not care too much about AKC certification.

I'd say what you're saying here doesn't amount to much either. Tell me Art Blank's son is the Miami DA or the head of the Miami Police or runs the Miami TSA. Having billions of dollars doesn't make you above the law. It might help but it's not de facto. Misunderstandings don't happen when the TSA, Police, and DA are involved? Gimme a break. Let me know when you spot the silent black helicopters or you've cracked the Roswell incident. This type of accusation is on the same level as what the Humane Society is doing... accusing Art Blank, the head of a billion dollar company, of bribery/extortion or influence peddling involving law enforcement are serious accusations and if true warrant a look by the FBI and the Justice Dept.

 

 

 

OJ Simpson had a bunch of buddies in the LA DA's office. Is that what you're implying? He was maybe worth 10% of Arthur Blank's worth AND had a murder rap (not a misdemeanor) to fight.

 

I know that sometimes hiding something out in the open is the best way to hide it. If Vick was more interested in fighting dogs than genuinely breeding them, using a legit business as a front for his illegal activities is hardly something he just invented.

[kingfish247]

If there was evidence of massive animal abuse on property that Vick owns, that would be enough to bring him up on charges in most states/counties.

 

Landlord/tenant law isn't that cut and dry. A landlord could be renting to people running a meth lab. The landlord might just get a check every month. That doesn't make the landlord criminally liable for his tenants. A landlord would only face criminal penalties if they can show the landlord had knowledge of the illegal activity. A simple check of phone records might indicate this which if they originally investigating drug activity they certainly have checked and cross-checked every number his nephew dialed or received. If Vick gifted the residence to his nephew, then I imagine the same burden of proof applies.

 

LOL. Two words: Ted Kennedy

 

Money and power are most definitely useful when it comes to charges getting dropped or knocked down to a ridiculous misdemeanor.

 

Art Blank is no Kennedy family. The conspiracy theories are laughable IMO. You could look at it the oppositie... you don't think it would've benefited the careers of the Miami Police or the Miami DA had they been able to get a high profile arrest, charges to stick, and/or conviction of Vick? Look at what happened at Duke Univ.

 

Same goes here... if the Virginia police and DA believe Vick had knowledge of what was going on at his nephew's house, he will be charged. So far the statements from the VA police and DA have said that according to their investigation they do not believe Vick was involved in what was going on at his nephew's house. After all is said and done and Vick isn't charged and the police/DA state he had nothing to do with it or any knowledge, I suppose you can chalk that up to almighty Blank and his billions again, right?

 

Look... if Vick is charged and it's shown he had knowledge and direct involvement, as everyone is insinuating, I'd be the first to spit in his face if given the chance. But until then I'll just rely on the facts as they're made available and dispense with the conspiracy theories and innuendo.

Edited May 7, 2007 by kingfish247

[Bill Swerski]

Landlord/tenant law isn't that cut and dry. A landlord could be renting to people running a meth lab. The landlord might just get a check every month. That doesn't make the landlord criminally liable for his tenants. A landlord would only face criminal penalties if they can show the landlord had knowledge of the illegal activity. A simple check of phone records might indicate this which if they originally investigating drug activity they certainly have checked and cross-checked every number his nephew dialed or received. If Vick gifted the residence to his nephew, then I imagine the same burden of proof applies.

 

 

I'm no legal expert, but I believe that most rental agreements transfer most criminal liability to the leasee. Otherwise, leasing property would be such a massive legal risk that nobody would do it.

 

In Ron Mexico's case, I seriously doubt that he made his cousin sign such a document. Therefore, I would bet that "landlord/tennant law" does not apply in this case. And I'll bet that it wouldn't be difficult to prove in court that Vick knew that there was a building behind the house that contained 60+ loud, barking dogs (given that he probably paid for the construction costs). That would make Vick criminally-liable.

 

according to their investigation they do not believe Vick was involved in what was going on at his nephew's house.

 

It's not "his nephew's house." Vick owns the property and there's no evidence that he was legally leasing it to his cousin.

 

Art Blank is no Kennedy family. The conspiracy theories are laughable IMO. You could look at it the oppositie... you don't think it would've benefited the careers of the Miami Police or the Miami DA had they been able to get a high profile arrest, charges to stick, and/or conviction of Vick? Look at what happened at Duke Univ.

 

LOL, Arthur blank is a billionaire who co-founded Home Depot and currently own an NFL franchise. He has a ton of power and influcence and is much wealthier than the Kennedys were in the early '80s. But if you want to dismiss a billionaire pulling a few strings to get his $100 million investment off of a misdemeanor as a "conspiracy theory", go right ahead. He definitely has the motive and one criminal charge against said investment has already magically vanished into thin air.

 

For Christ's sake, Ted Kennedy got away with manslaughter, leaving the scene of an accident, driving while intoxicated, reckless driving, destruction of property, and arguably obstruction of justice as well. But you don't think that the multi-billionaire owner of the Atlanta Falcons might be able to make a phone call or two to make a misdemeanor Josh Gordon possession charge disappear?

Edited May 7, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[kingfish247]

But if you want to dismiss a billionaire pulling a few strings to get his $100 million investment off of a misdemeanor as a "conspiracy theory", go right ahead. He definitely has the motive and one criminal charge against said investment has already magically vanished into thin air.

This is lunacy...

 

What does Blank have to benefit protecting, as you believe, a drug smuggling QB for the NFL team he owns? If he's found out or even worse yet someone not "in his loop" finds out and goes public that Blank influenced the Miami police and Miami DA to not press charges... what kind of negative attention would this bring to him and his 30.2 billion dollar a year company. I mean what the hell... you don't think that he'd throw Mike Vick under a bus in a second if it meant that either he would take a serious negative personal hit and/or reflect negatively on his company. Blank has much, much bigger fish to fry and concerns than whether or not his QB goes to jail. I know that the NFL runs things on this board and is the most important sport in the US but assuming a owner/CEO of a multi-billion dollar company would stake his reputation on Mike Vick is absurd.

 

Anyways... last time I checked, the Miami DA and Miami police weren't brought to you by Home Depot. If what everyone suggests actually happened, the Miami police and DA would not only lose their jobs but possibly face prosecution themselves.

 

I guess we'll wait and see... link

Edited May 7, 2007 by kingfish247

[PantherDave]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/ar...insider-ON.html

[Bill Swerski]

This is lunacy...

 

What does Blank have to benefit protecting, as you believe, a drug smuggling QB for the NFL team he owns? If he's found out or even worse yet someone not "in his loop" finds out and goes public that Blank influenced the Miami police and Miami DA to not press charges... what kind of negative attention would this bring to him and his 30.2 billion dollar a year company. I mean what the hell... you don't think that he'd throw Mike Vick under a bus in a second if it meant that either he would take a serious negative personal hit and/or reflect negatively on his company. Blank has much, much bigger fish to fry and concerns than whether or not his QB goes to jail. I know that the NFL runs things on this board and is the most important sport in the US but assuming a owner/CEO of a multi-billion dollar company would stake his reputation on Mike Vick is absurd.

 

Anyways... last time I checked, the Miami DA and Miami police weren't brought to you by Home Depot. If what everyone suggests actually happened, the Miami police and DA would not only lose their jobs but possibly face prosecution themselves.

 

I guess we'll wait and see... link

 

 

No, "lunacy" is a TSA agent discovering a substance with both the consistency and odor of Josh Gordon in Vick's water bottle, the lab tests coming up negative, and Vick's explanation that the substance was "jewelry." And, of course, the videotape of the incident being erased. I don't know who is behind it, but there is so much utter bull$hit going on here that I'm positive that somebody is covering Vick's ass.

 

BTW, Blank retired from his position at Home Depot years ago (and presumably sold off many of his shares) and is mostly involved with the Falcons now. While I agree that it would not be wise for him to go to bat for Ron Mexico in an underhanded way, most of his current business' revenue relies on Ron Mexico being a popular superstar. That doesn't necessarily mean that Blank did anything wrong but, again, he has ample financial motive to do so.

Edited May 7, 2007 by Bill Swerski