Where were you born?

[Avernus]

ratsass, could use please use the "quote" function when you are posting something that you have cut-and-pasted.

 

Thank you.

 

you usually offer some good insight, but this post was pointless...

[MikesVikes]

I know I am trying all of your patience, but I am building a case. We are almost finished.

 

 

We? Now I'm back to the John Nash theory.

 

 

 

Couldn't resist this final non-contributing post to this topic.

[Clubfoothead]

an extremely long post, but

 

great info here...

 

Maybe it is all great information. It leaves a lot of stuff out in Central and South America where plenty of bad things happened. A long list of facts. So what's the conclusion? The government is corrupt? That's nothing new, we all agreed on that at the beginning of the Tailgate, no? That's like the one fundamental truth around here, or so I thought.

 

I've got a 2 year old and a 6 year old. rattsass, spare me the hour long redacted version of the video link and get to the point if the point is so important.

[rattsass]

We? Now I'm back to the John Nash theory.

 

 

 

Couldn't resist this final non-contributing post to this topic.

Gee, I thought you might actually like my last link. But I guess you didn't bother to check it out either.

[darin3]

A BBC documentary found unfit for American television.

Oh, you mean the same BBC that won't report on the oil spill that one of their country's largest companies caused? Just checking.

 

Edit: I take that back. They're reporting on it now that Obama laid the wood to them. Still nothing but "financial impact" reporting rather than how the cleanup is progressing and other spill-related coverage. Sure, if you ignore something, it'll eventually just go away, right?

Edited June 16, 2010 by darin3

[rattsass]

Oh, you mean the same BBC that won't report on the oil spill that one of their country's largest companies caused? Just checking.

 

Edit: I take that back. They're reporting on it now that Obama laid the wood to them. Still nothing but "financial impact" reporting rather than how the cleanup is progressing and other spill-related coverage. Sure, if you ignore something, it'll eventually just go away, right?

You mean like Obama did for a month or so?

[rattsass]

Oh, you mean the same BBC that won't report on the oil spill that one of their country's largest companies caused? Just checking.

 

Edit: I take that back. They're reporting on it now that Obama laid the wood to them. Still nothing but "financial impact" reporting rather than how the cleanup is progressing and other spill-related coverage. Sure, if you ignore something, it'll eventually just go away, right?

 

You mean like the problems with our government?

[rattsass]

Thank you Darin, you provided me with the perfect jumping off point for my final diatribe.

 

I have learned a lot in this thread. I have learned a lot about the people I am going to have to depend on to help us get out of the mess we are in. I know I can't count on the countless millions that depend on the government for their very existance in the form of financial assistance. They have been rendered politically and socielly useless due to their own lack of participation.

 

I wanted to see where you professional and working people really stood. I wanted to see what you believed, what you were willing to believe, and the level of hyprocisy held in those beliefs. I really needed for you to watch the last documentary to really get the final verdict, but I fear I lost you along the way, and you have grown tired of this excersize. I'm going to assume that Darin's final snarky comment speaks for the majority of you.

 

It seems that the majority of you believe in nothing. Except your joy of arguing for or against your chosen party of criminals.

 

You won't believe that our own "legitimate" media is compromised, but you will believe that every other media is.

 

When presented with opinions of conspiracy, the bulk of you will have none of it. You have made it abundantly clear.

 

Duchess Jack said it best: ANYTHING THAT CAN NOT BE PROVEN IS A THEORY. And that seems to be the prevailing thought. To which I say fine. Don't blame you one bit.

 

But the point of having you watch the last documentary that you refused to watch, was to show you that our government perpetrated a CONSPIRACY THEORY OF THEIR OWN to launch us into a war on terror.

 

Even if you do not believe 911 was an inside job, the facts presented in the documentary make it clear. Our government declared war on an enemy that does not exist.

 

AlQaeda wasn't even AlQaeda until our government gave the monster a name. Bin Laden was basically a pariah among his own peers of terrorists. Bin Laden was only used by the group for his money from the very beginning. They tolerated him. They took his money. But he was never their leader. And few of them had any desire to launch attacks on US soil. Just as our invasion of Iraq was proven to be under false pretense, so was our claim of a worldwide web of organized terrorists led by Bin Laden . Bin Laden was a marginilized figure in the terror world until we propped him up and made him something he never was.

 

We were attacked by a small cell that somehow escaped the scrutiny of the largest intelliegence agency in the history if mankind. They brought in a professional international snitch (who was on the run from OSAMA because he had stolen money from him) we told him what to say, and we paid him handsomely and gave him asylum in return for the story they told him to tell.

 

But we all bought into the "conspiracy theory" about the weapons of mass destruction. Didn't we?

 

We all bought into the "conspiracy theory' of a well organized terror network headed by Bin Laden.

 

No questions asked. All of you cast aside the conspiracy theorist as whack jobs, but you let the government sell you their ridiculous conspiracy theories time after time.

 

And you spend your days typing your keyboards defending your criminal party of choice as if they were your own children.

 

You are ready to throw me on the bonfire for posting or even suggesting conspiracy theory. But you accept the ones thrown at you by your own government and eat them up like candy.

 

So what have we got as a result of buying these government conspiracy theories?

 

We have an unwinnable war in Iraq. We have an unwinnable war in Afghanistan. We have dead soldiers. We have broken soldiers. We have soldiers with serious mental problems walking our streets.

 

We have enpowered Bin Laden and probably a lot of muslim radicals that would otherwise have no interest in attacking us if not for the imperialist occupation of thier lands, and the legend we have made Bin Laden out to be.

 

We have in the name of a nameless, faceless fear, begun the process of tearing down our liberties brick by brick in the name of this so called "war on terror."

 

We have squandered a fortune on these "wars" and mortgaged our children's future.

 

We have been duped by our rulers. They are not leaders, they are our rulers.

 

And now they have begun to systematically rob the entirety of the wealth of this country. I have provided all the evidence anybody should need to support my case. You can rationalize the theft any way you want in your mind. But in my mind our government is in the business of treason against the American people.

 

But are you outraged? No. You save your rage for someone that dares question this tyrannical bunch of thugs. You save your rage for the truthseeker. Maybe you feel powerless against your real aggressors, so you attack those who question your decision to do so. You attack those that dare question anything.

 

Or maybe you have your nice Escalade, and your nice house, nice family and your nest egg, and none of this really concerns your day to day existance. You can't be bothered with it, because in your world everything is pretty good. You have thrown out your responsibility to preserve our country because none of this is a direct problem for you, right now.

 

People, we have a Constitutional responsibility to preserve the Republic. And that supercedes our selfish desires to have the biggest house, the nicest car, and the best electronic gadgets. Our very existence is at stake.

 

The election of Obama, and his continued support of the tyranny brought forth by the previous administration should be a shocking wake up call to all of us. This is more serious than we thought. This is not the work of a misguided rogue administration. This is now an ongoing process of the self defeating destruction of the Constitution and the United States of America.

 

We are losing our country. We are losing our freedom. Our very way of life hangs in the balance. I guess I just wanted to know if any of you really give a chit. A few of you obviously do. But it seems the majority of you won't even admit to yourselves that this is happening. And I find that scarier than any conspiracy theory that can be concocted. If the level of apathy displayed in this thread, and the general frivolity assigned to the issues addressed is any indication, my worst fears have been realized. We are in serious trouble.

 

God help us all.

Edited June 16, 2010 by rattsass

[billay]

What was the name of that video again? The power of nightmares?

 

The politics of fear is a very real and dangerous tool.

 

And you are presently spreading it.

 

 

Our very existence is at stake.

 

This is more serious than we thought. ...

 

This is now an ongoing process of the self defeating destruction of the Constitution and the United States of America.

 

We are losing our country.

 

We are losing our freedom.

 

Our very way of life hangs in the balance.

 

I find that scarier than any conspiracy theory ...

 

my worst fears have been realized.

 

We are in serious trouble.

 

 

 

 

 

God help us all.

[Duchess Jack]

Ratass,

 

Nobody is saying that our media is independent .

 

Nobody is saying that our politicians have our best interests in mind. I think that everybody on this thread has said as much.

 

Nobody is making this about one party against another.

 

I know you have some ideas that you are kicking around - please don't make others on this board look naive to support those ideas based on fantasy. You should be able to prove what you need to without making people look like mindless, happy slaves to the machine. Again - nobody here thinks our government is squeaky clean and has our best interests in mind and nobody here believes that we have an independant media. If you want to point out how people are blind to things - you are going to have to use something else.

 

Nobody is denying that - to one reason or another - this stuff is happening. Its just that many - including myself see much of what is going on as an element of our human nature more than some crazy conspirisy.

 

I just think that many have real life easilly definable issues in their life that they have a least marginal control over. Seeing as how all of this - in my opinion - is about our nature as a species, the only thing we can do is work to change ourselves and over time - perhaps a really long time - things will change - because until we do that, anybody we get in those positions of power will end up being the same thing.

 

I'd love it if you would have addressed some of my comments, because I feel like I pointed out - as an element of our human nature - explainations for many of the things that lead you to see things as a conspirisy.

 

Just to recap:

 

Do people in politics tend to share circles with people in politics? Do people in finance tend to share circles with other people in finance? Do general contractors tend to share circles with other general contractors? Do doctors tend to share circles with other doctors?

 

Could this play a part in why many of these people share circles and boards? I mean - I am in the pharmaceutical (funny, pharma is filtered as spam) industry and everybody knows everybody - not just locally - but nationally, because at the end of the day - its a small world.

 

How many people do you know that sit on board or think tanks? Do they only sit on one board or think tank? I my experience, they don't. These tend to be people with wealth, a decent education, connections and time. I have noticed that these kind of people (board and think tank people) see these positions as issues of status and a chance to network and keep in the spotlight

 

Do you agree that the more rich and powerful you get - the smaller your circles get? Does this explain why many of these people might share circles and might be in the same boards.

 

Do you think that anybody in politics has any chance of being elected without being super connected? Do you thnk that they could get to any of the prior steps without being super connected? Is this a conspirisy or just a crappy part of the system?

 

Do you disagree that everything in our universe begins, grows robust and burns out? Suns, seasons, plants, people, etc. You think that somehow our country is outside of this constant fact?

 

Do you accept that politics and power are never one on one battles and how there is you – and everybody else who wants what you have?

Do you agree that the more fronts you have in a battle – the more likely you are to lose that battle? Do agree that to sustain this that politicians need to find allies and spend their time in office – maintaining and placating those allies (many of which fill the politicians war chests). Do you think that this is a conspiricy or just an element of our human nature?

 

Why are you surprised that most of the 12 presidents in the last 70 years have all belonged to a group whose mission is to better understand global trends and contribute ideas to American foreign policy? We're talking about people who obviously share some interests; and one of those interest might be the US - and its strategic global interests. We're talking about the 10 of the most powerful people in the world in the last 70 years - all American. Is it such a leap that they all might be part of that group - especially if that group affords them - experience, additional exposure, resume stuff and addition connections?

 

If you had a job where all 6 of your predecessors had belonged to an orginization that connected them with the people they needed to know to be as effective as possible with their jobs, would you too join that orginization? What if that same orginization afforded you additional power and prestige?

 

Is it a conspirisy that most doctors belong to the AMA and most Lawyers are members of the Bar?

 

Do agree that power begets power? Do wealth and influance breed wealth and influance?

 

Do you agree that power entices an inordinate amount of pathological personalities – and it’s the strongest of the pathogens that tend to rise to the top?

 

I view what you are seeing as a symptom rather than a disease. If somehow you were able to remove these specific groups you've sited - how long do you think it would take for that vaccuum to be filled? Is that because there are countless secret evil groups out there - or because that is what in our failed, greedy, power hungry, imperfect nature - what we as a people do?

 

At the very least - do you agree that anybody who has gotten anywhere in politics has sold their soul long ago, are the people who have the power and would most likely be the next line of people to try to control the world from shadows?

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe that a lot of what you are saying is going on - I just disagree on the cause and overtly nefarious nature that you are attributing to it. There seem to be a lot of natural causes for the things you point out. Our human nature should be clear to everyone and denying that nature to assign these observations to a different cause just doesn't make sense.

 

I don't like it - but realize that by and large its in the nature of the Animal. I am controlling the things I can control and focusing on fixing things that have a clear cause and effect.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Duchess Jack

[Avernus]

if anyone reading this thread were to read only one post that rattsass has contributed to this thread, read the last one...

 

..at least read the last post he made...

[Avernus]

Ratass,

 

Nobody is saying that our media is independent .

 

Nobody is saying that our politicians have our best interests in mind. I think that everybody on this thread has said as much.

 

Nobody is making this about one party against another.

 

I know you have some ideas that you are kicking around - please don't make others on this board look naive to support those ideas based on fantasy. You should be able to prove what you need to without making people look like mindless, happy slaves to the machine. Again - nobody here thinks our government is squeaky clean and has our best interests in mind and nobody here believes that we have an independant media. If you want to point out how people are blind to things - you are going to have to use something else.

 

Nobody is denying that - to one reason or another - this stuff is happening. Its just that many - including myself see much of what is going on as an element of our human nature more than some crazy conspirisy.

 

I just think that many have real life easilly definable issues in their life that they have a least marginal control over. Seeing as how all of this - in my opinion - is about our nature as a species, the only thing we can do is work to change ourselves and over time - perhaps a really long time - things will change - because until we do that, anybody we get in those positions of power will end up being the same thing.

 

I'd love it if you would have addressed some of my comments, because I feel like I pointed out - as an element of our human nature - explainations for many of the things that lead you to see things as a conspirisy.

 

Just to recap:

 

Do people in politics tend to share circles with people in politics? Do people in finance tend to share circles with other people in finance? Do general contractors tend to share circles with other general contractors? Do doctors tend to share circles with other doctors?

 

Could this play a part in why many of these people share circles and boards? I mean - I am in the pharmaceutical (funny, pharma is filtered as spam) industry and everybody knows everybody - not just locally - but nationally, because at the end of the day - its a small world.

 

How many people do you know that sit on board or think tanks? Do they only sit on one board or think tank? I my experience, they don't. These tend to be people with wealth, a decent education, connections and time. I have noticed that these kind of people (board and think tank people) see these positions as issues of status and a chance to network and keep in the spotlight

 

Do you agree that the more rich and powerful you get - the smaller your circles get? Does this explain why many of these people might share circles and might be in the same boards.

 

Do you think that anybody in politics has any chance of being elected without being super connected? Do you thnk that they could get to any of the prior steps without being super connected? Is this a conspirisy or just a crappy part of the system?

 

Do you disagree that everything in our universe begins, grows robust and burns out? Suns, seasons, plants, people, etc. You think that somehow our country is outside of this constant fact?

 

Do you accept that politics and power are never one on one battles and how there is you – and everybody else who wants what you have?

Do you agree that the more fronts you have in a battle – the more likely you are to lose that battle? Do agree that to sustain this that politicians need to find allies and spend their time in office – maintaining and placating those allies (many of which fill the politicians war chests). Do you think that this is a conspiricy or just an element of our human nature?

 

Why are you surprised that most of the 12 presidents in the last 70 years have all belonged to a group whose mission is to better understand global trends and contribute ideas to American foreign policy? We're talking about people who obviously share some interests; and one of those interest might be the US - and its strategic global interests. We're talking about the 10 of the most powerful people in the world in the last 70 years - all American. Is it such a leap that they all might be part of that group - especially if that group affords them - experience, additional exposure, resume stuff and addition connections?

 

If you had a job where all 6 of your predecessors had belonged to an orginization that connected them with the people they needed to know to be as effective as possible with their jobs, would you too join that orginization? What if that same orginization afforded you additional power and prestige?

 

Is it a conspirisy that most doctors belong to the AMA and most Lawyers are members of the Bar?

 

Do agree that power begets power? Do wealth and influance breed wealth and influance?

 

Do you agree that power entices an inordinate amount of pathological personalities – and it’s the strongest of the pathogens that tend to rise to the top?

 

I view what you are seeing as a symptom rather than a disease. If somehow you were able to remove these specific groups you've sited - how long do you think it would take for that vaccuum to be filled? Is that because there are countless secret evil groups out there - or because that is what in our failed, greedy, power hungry, imperfect nature - what we as a people do?

 

At the very least - do you agree that anybody who has gotten anywhere in politics has sold their soul long ago, are the people who have the power and would most likely be the next line of people to try to control the world from shadows?

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe that a lot of what you are saying is going on - I just disagree on the cause and overtly nefarious nature that you are attributing to it. There seem to be a lot of natural causes for the things you point out. Our human nature should be clear to everyone and denying that nature to assign these observations to a different cause just doesn't make sense.

 

I don't like it - but realize that by and large its in the nature of the Animal. I am controlling the things I can control and focusing on fixing things that have a clear cause and effect.

 

well said...

 

the thing is, people don't get all of the news from our media...we only argue the points that they report on - or the one's that our government presents in their debate...

 

my main problem with all of this is that we vote on these political parties that end up voting amongst themselves on policies that WE THE PEOPLE should be voting on...

 

we should be voting on policies and not politicians - and that's change we can believe in...

[Azazello1313]

jaysus. do they make they make an immodium type product for verbal diarrhea? 'cause if so, maybe that's what someone needs to try to plug this gusher. use the top kill junk shot maneuver if that's what it takes. but somebody PLEASE make it stop

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

my main problem with all of this is that we vote on these political parties that end up voting amongst themselves on policies that WE THE PEOPLE should be voting on...

 

we should be voting on policies and not politicians - and that's change we can believe in...

 

 

you have GOT to be kidding me.

The US was BASED on a system of voting for an elite to make policy.

This process has gotten a lot more open as opposed to closed over the centuries (anyone can run for office now. almost anyone can vote to put someone in office. blacks can vote. land not required to vote. many states rely on the referendum which gives the vote directly to the people)

And politicians are thus more mindful of public opinion than EVER before.

 

Get your story straight

 

We the people had a lot less to say in the terms of policy in the 18th century, the 19th century, and even as little as 20 years ago.

 

Jeez!

[wiegie]

I REALLY REALLY want you all to watch the Power of Nightmares. If you have been a part of this discussion or just lurking, I think this doc will be very enlightening. It is NOT a conspiracy rag. If you don't have much time just watch the last 15-20 minutes. You wil see who the real conspiracy theorists and fear mongers are.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=46...592330319789254

 

Don't make me beg you. None of this matters if you don't see this.

 

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... won't get fooled again.

[SEC=UGA]

This thread needs its own theme music.

[wiegie]

This thread needs its own theme music.

 

[Big John]

This thread needs its own theme music.

Mission: Impossible ?

[Kid Cid]

Ratass,

 

Nobody is saying that our media is independent .

 

Nobody is saying that our politicians have our best interests in mind. I think that everybody on this thread has said as much.

 

Nobody is making this about one party against another.

 

I know you have some ideas that you are kicking around - please don't make others on this board look naive to support those ideas based on fantasy. You should be able to prove what you need to without making people look like mindless, happy slaves to the machine. Again - nobody here thinks our government is squeaky clean and has our best interests in mind and nobody here believes that we have an independant media. If you want to point out how people are blind to things - you are going to have to use something else.

 

[EDITED FOR BREVITY]

 

I don't like it - but realize that by and large its in the nature of the Animal. I am controlling the things I can control and focusing on fixing things that have a clear cause and effect.

You go girl!

[wiegie]

what to make of this conspiracy?

 

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2010...ropy-challenge/

[Avernus]

you have GOT to be kidding me.

The US was BASED on a system of voting for an elite to make policy.

This process has gotten a lot more open as opposed to closed over the centuries (anyone can run for office now. almost anyone can vote to put someone in office. blacks can vote. land not required to vote. many states rely on the referendum which gives the vote directly to the people)

And politicians are thus more mindful of public opinion than EVER before.

 

Get your story straight

 

We the people had a lot less to say in the terms of policy in the 18th century, the 19th century, and even as little as 20 years ago.

 

Jeez!

 

 

you forgot to add sarcasm tags...

[Avernus]

jaysus. do they make they make an immodium type product for verbal diarrhea? 'cause if so, maybe that's what someone needs to try to plug this gusher. use the top kill junk shot maneuver if that's what it takes. but somebody PLEASE make it stop

 

nobody said you have to click the link to the thread and read...

 

maybe this thread is not for you?

[Avernus]

what to make of this conspiracy?

 

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2010...ropy-challenge/

 

[SEC=UGA]

Interesting article Wiege. I still say that one of the biggest problems this world faces is over population in many "poor" nations. I feel that by these people giving money to charities that combat disease and hunger they are simply creating a bigger problem that the world can not continue to handle or fund. Though the goal is noble, I don't agree that it is a good goal.

[wiegie]

Interesting article Wiege. I still say that one of the biggest problems this world faces is over population in many "poor" nations. I feel that by these people giving money to charities that combat disease and hunger they are simply creating a bigger problem that the world can not continue to handle or fund. Though the goal is noble, I don't agree that it is a good goal.

I'm not sure about your conclusion. One of the most important things for economic growth is "human capital" (education, acquisition of skills, etc.). If I think I am going to die young, then I have very little incentive to "invest" in my own human capital, since it won't be worth it. If I think I will live longer, then I will be much more willing to invest in myself since I know that I will be able to accrue the returns from this investment for a long time.

 

Secondly, if a nation has a sick and dying population, it must make the decision of whether to use its resources to educate people or to try to keep them from dying. Usually, keeping someone alive today is deemed more urgent than worrying about their income two decades from now. So, if the health of a nation can be increased, then it can choose to invest more in human capital overall.

 

Overall, it's not clear to me whatsoever that poor nations are doomed to stay in some sort of Malthusian trap where population growth will always keep a nation at a subsistence level of existence. (Relatedly, just three weeks ago at a conference I was the discussant for a research paper which basically concluded that what is really needed to get out of a Malthusian trap is one or two generations in which economic growth exceeds the population growth rate.)