The country is broke, state and local govts broke

[bpwallace49]

for bpwallace

 

For Azz

 

Wis. budget plan may tilt political playing field

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EmailPrint.. AP – Protesters bang drums and shout slogans inside the state Capitol Monday, Feb. 21, 2011, in Madison, Wis. … .By RYAN J. FOLEY, Associated Press Ryan J. Foley, Associated Press – Mon Feb 21, 3:35 pm ET

MADISON, Wis. – The high-stakes fight in Wisconsin over union rights is about more than pay and benefits in the public sector. It could have far-reaching effects on electoral politics in this and other states by helping solidify Republican power for years, experts said Monday.

 

While Republican Gov. Scott Walker's plan to wipe out collective bargaining rights for most public employees has galvanized Democrats and union members in opposition, the GOP could benefit long-term by crippling a key source of campaign funding and volunteers for Democrats.

 

"It would be a huge landscape-altering type of action, and it would tilt the scales significantly in favor of the Republicans," said Mike McCabe, director of the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, which has long tracked union involvement in Wisconsin elections. "This is a national push, and it's being simultaneously pushed in a number of states. I think Wisconsin is moving the fastest and most aggressively so far."

 

The National Education Association, which represents 3.2 million workers, said teachers' collective bargaining rights are also being targeted by proposals in Ohio, Idaho, Indiana and other states.

 

Iowa Gov. Terry Branstad, a Republican, said Monday lawmakers should pass a proposal to bar public employees from negotiating health insurance benefits. In Indiana, a GOP-led House committee debated Monday a right-to-work bill that would prohibit union membership from being a condition of employment.

 

The Wisconsin plan strikes at a key Democratic Party constituency by eliminating the mandatory union dues teachers and other public workers are required to pay. The plan would take away the ability of most municipal and state employees to bargain any condition of employment beyond their base salaries — including benefits, work schedules and overtime pay. And unions would need to survive a vote of their members every year to stay in existence.

 

Public safety workers, including police officers, firefighters and state troopers, would keep their rights under the plan. Those unions endorsed Walker in his campaign for governor last year, but he said they were exempted because he did not want to jeopardize public safety if they walked off the job.

 

Nancy MacLean, a labor historian at Duke University, said eliminating unions would do to the Democratic Party what getting rid of socially conservative churches would do to Republicans. She called unions "the most important mass membership, get-out-the vote wing of the Democratic Party."

 

"It's stunning partisan calculation on the governor's part, and really ugly," she said.

 

Walker has denied political motivations, saying his proposal is about cutting state and local spending for years to come. But in an interview with The Associated Press last week as protests raged inside the Capitol, he acknowledged his plan to allow workers to opt out of paying their dues could cripple unions.

 

"That's something that threatens these national leaders. They want that money. That's their existence. Having mandatory membership is what keeps them going," he said. "If people have a choice, I think many of them are afraid that things will change, and that's where the intensity is. But for us, it's about balancing the budget and doing it in the most responsible way possible."

 

Standing to lose the most clout is the powerful Wisconsin Education Association Council, which represents 98,000 teachers, counselors and other current and retired school workers. Mandatory dues for its members can be $1,000 or more per year.

 

Walker has suggested workers could save their dues and use that to help pay more for their health insurance and retirement benefits. His plan would essentially cut take home pay for many public workers by 8 percent by increasing their contributions for those benefits, concessions that union leaders say they are willing to accept if Walker backs off his anti-union rights plan.

 

Crowded among a throng of protesters on the Capitol steps on Monday, Madison elementary school teacher Barbara Rowe said she gladly pays her $95 monthly dues to her union. She said her pay would be cut by far more than that under Walker's plan and she was willing to accept that to help balance the budget. But she denounced his proposal to eliminate collective bargaining "as a total power grab."

 

"This is all about union busting," she said.

 

WEAC is typically among the largest-spending special interests in Wisconsin politics, helping former Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle win two terms in office and often trying to sway key legislative races with television ads and mailers. It also contributes to other groups that run political ads in favor of Democrats and against Republicans.

 

WEAC's political arm has spent more than $11 million in donations to campaigns and spending to support and oppose other candidates since 1998, nearly all of it helping Democrats, according to McCabe. The group endorsed Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, a Democrat, in his race against Walker for governor last year.

 

McCabe said WEAC's campaign spending dwarfs that by other unions — including American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, which represents tens of thousands of state and local workers in Wisconsin. But he said they were all a key part of the Democratic party's coalition in a state that has generally leaned to the left.

 

Combined with proposals to require voters to show identification, end election-day voter registration and redraw legislative boundaries, Wisconsin Republicans could solidify their power if the anti-union bill passes, said David Canon, a University of Wisconsin-Madison political scientist.

 

Arguably more important than their spending is union-organized volunteer work manning phone banks to help Democrats, going door-to-door to get voters out and mobilizing their members to vote, he said.

 

"It adds up to something that would fundamentally shift the nature of partisan politics in Wisconsin for a decade, whether or not they intended to or not," he said. "The stakes are very high. Everyone is viewing this as a test case for the nation."

 

____

 

Associated Press Writer Scott Bauer contributed

Edited February 22, 2011 by bpwallace49

[Azazello1313]

Az, my point is and HAS been that if Walker is all about saving money on the budget, then why didnt he go after ALL the public unions at the same time?

 

and I've said that I agree with you. but you've also said again and again that walker is going after the unions that oppose him, and sparing the unions that endorsed him. I was just pointing out an inconvenient fact for that talking point -- in that by far the vast majority of police and fire union endorsements and campaign contributions went to walker's opponent.

[bpwallace49]

WWGadz do ?

I <3 whompers.

 

[SEC=UGA]

I agree all thepublic unions need to take a hit.

 

I find it interesting in BP's article above that, basically, tax payer money, handed out by the teacher's unions, is going to fund election campaigns of one party. My dollars are used to promote the ideals of people that don't represent my political tendencies, nice.

[bpwallace49]

and I've said that I agree with you. but you've also said again and again that walker is going after the unions that oppose him, and sparing the unions that endorsed him. I was just pointing out an inconvenient fact for that talking point -- in that by far the vast majority of police and fire union endorsements and campaign contributions went to walker's opponent.

 

The State Troopers (which represent ALL state troopers, the Milwaukee police (the biggest municipal police department), and 2 others endorsed him. They are larger than other police departmnets in norther WI that have 10 officers. There has been quite a bit of misinformation on this floating around, as evidenced by the associated press article I showed above where they state that police unions backed Walker.

 

While the number of endorsing unions is correct, the number of particpants (and their according political clout) is different. And if Walker ends up evenly applying it I will for being even handed with his austerity measures.

[bpwallace49]

I agree all thepublic unions need to take a hit.

 

I find it interesting in BP's article above that, basically, tax payer money, handed out by the teacher's unions, is going to fund election campaigns of one party. My dollars are used to promote the ideals of people that don't represent my political tendencies, nice.

 

I didnt know you lived in WI?

 

And it isnt that different than businesses getting special tax breaks and then backing republican candidates. That also is "your dollars" being used to support a political party. That goes off on completely different tangent about funding of elections. (which def deserves its own thread)

[Azazello1313]

The State Troopers (which represent ALL state troopers, the Milwaukee police (the biggest municipal police department), and 2 others endorsed him. They are larger than other police departmnets in norther WI that have 10 officers. There has been quite a bit of misinformation on this floating around, as evidenced by the associated press article I showed above where they state that police unions backed Walker.

 

the two biggest statewide unions, the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, and the Wisonsin Professional Fire-Fighters endorsed his opponent. also endorsed by the National Association of Police Officers.

 

from politfact:

We then contacted the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, the statewide union that endorsed Walker's opponent last year. Executive director Jim Palmer said the statewide organization is much larger than the local Milwaukee police union that endorsed Walker. The state group has approximately 11,000 members versus Milwaukee’s roughly 1,400, he said.

 

Similarly, the state firefighters association has more than 3,000, compared with the Milwaukee union’s 875.

 

it is true that some unions endorsed walker. but the vast majority, in terms of sheer number as well as size and influence, endorsed his opponent. if you want to say exemtping the police and fire unions is political, because those unions might be more popular or whatever, then I would agree with you. but the talking point that he is exempting the ones that endorsed him is incredibly hollow. almost all unions of every sort put the vast majority of their political money and influence where their bread is buttered, and that is with the democratic party.

[TimC]

Obviously, the only reason some endorsed Walker was to jump on the winner's bandwagon to ensure they get their special interests covered.

 

The thing you must realize about hippies are they go wherever the best chance to get the pot is .

Edited February 22, 2011 by TimC

[myhousekey]

Edit: I do want to add a caveat: these salaries are for people who only have a bachelor's degree. Most teachers can get raises by getting a master's degree in education (which is perhaps the easiest master's degree in the world to get).

 

Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets.

Yeah, that Masters Degree bonus isn't all that its cracked up to be either. My wife was a 2nd grade teacher (before she became a SAHM) and her Master's degree basically got her a $500 / semester stipend. That's not exactly going a long ways towards paying off the student loan that was required to get the Masters....

Bottom line, teachers don't make jack. But then again a lot don't work 3 months out of the year either during Summer so I guess you have to prorate their salaries somewhat.

[Perchoutofwater]

Some interesting information regarding teachers salaries I used in an argument earlier today with someone.

 

First let me start off by saying I really like teachers, as I'm married to one. So, I'd love it if we lived in a land of rainbows and unicorns and my wife made $100,000 a year. Having said that, there is not justification for the thought ...that teachers are underpaid. The facts just do not support that argument. Those that believe it are either uniformed, or have a vested interest in promoting higher teacher salaries. Please do not get me wrong, I think teachers perform a very valuable service. Just as I think nurses preform a valuable service, and electricians perform a valuable service, etc.....Here are some numbers for your review if you feel teachers are under paid.

 

The average person works 246 (assumes 10 days vacation and 10 days sick leave) days a year.

The average teacher works 179 (includes both instructional days and teacher work days less state and local days) days a year.

So the average teacher works roughly 72.8% of what the average person does.

The average salary for someone with a bachelor’s degree is $43,300.

The average salary of someone with a master’s degree is $62,300.

The average salary of a RN in Tyler Texas is $54,591.

The average salary of a high school teacher in Tyler, TX is $44,650.

So, in take home pay a high school teacher is 103% of that of the average bachelor’s degree, 71.7% of that of the average masters degree, and 81.8% of an RN, while only working 72.8% of the time of the average worker.

 

So as you can see based on the amount of time that they work they are compensated better than most with similar degrees.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Perchoutofwater

[bpwallace49]

Some interesting information regarding teachers salaries I used in an argument earlier today with someone.

 

First let me start off by saying I really like teachers, as I'm married to one. So, I'd love it if we lived in a land of rainbows and unicorns and my wife made $100,000 a year. Having said that, there is not justification for the thought ...that teachers are underpaid. The facts just do not support that argument. Those that believe it are either uniformed, or have a vested interest in promoting higher teacher salaries. Please do not get me wrong, I think teachers perform a very valuable service. Just as I think nurses preform a valuable service, and electricians perform a valuable service, etc.....Here are some numbers for your review if you feel teachers are under paid.

 

The average person works 246 (assumes 10 days vacation and 10 days sick leave) days a year.

The average teacher works 179 (includes both instructional days and teacher work days less state and local days) days a year.

So the average teacher works roughly 72.8% of what the average person does.

The average salary for someone with a bachelor’s degree is $52,200.

The average salary of someone with a master’s degree is $62,300.

The average salary of a RN in Tyler Texas is $54,591.

The average salary of a high school teacher in Tyler, TX is $44,650.

So, in take home pay a high school teacher is 85.5% of that of the average bachelor’s degree, 71.7% of that of the average masters degree, and 81.8% of an RN, while only working 72.8% of the time of the average worker.

 

So as you can see based on the amount of time that they work they are compensated better than most with similar degrees.

 

That is a great breakdown Perch.

 

DId you also account for overall hours or just days? Arent a lot of nurses hourly, so they can make a ton of money in OT versus a salaried teacher that doesnt punch a clock? I hear a lot about how teachers have to doa lot of work outside achool creating lesson plans, grading, coaching, etc. Wouldnt a more accurate comparison be hours worked rather than days? Dont a lot of nurses also work different shifts (like 24 hour shifts, then get 3 days off, etc) that would skew your data comparison?

 

Did you do that info gathering on your own? cause it does help put things in perspective . .

[wiegie]

RE: teacher wage comparisons

You might want to look at hours worked per year to make a valid comparison rather than days "off".

 

stupid spoiler (I blame TmC)

Edited February 22, 2011 by wiegie

[Perchoutofwater]

That is a great breakdown Perch.

 

DId you also account for overall hours or just days? Arent a lot of nurses hourly, so they can make a ton of money in OT versus a salaried teacher that doesnt punch a clock? I hear a lot about how teachers have to doa lot of work outside achool creating lesson plans, grading, coaching, etc. Wouldnt a more accurate comparison be hours worked rather than days? Dont a lot of nurses also work different shifts (like 24 hour shifts, then get 3 days off, etc) that would skew your data comparison?

 

Did you do that info gathering on your own? cause it does help put things in perspective . .

 

That is just days, but still the salary is higher based on days than the typical guy with a bachelor's degree, and I would think most with bachelor's degrees are salaried. I'd also add that it is just income and not total compensation. If you were to consider total compensation the teachers come out even further ahead, as health insurance cost are typically higher for teachers because the majority of them are women. Their insurance package costs as much if not more than the typical corporate package and they work less. Obviously the amount of work teachers have to do grading papers and what not will vary based on what they teach. Most math teachers have very little take home work where as most English teachers have to spend more time grading papers. Also how diligent they are during their conference/work period will determine if they have to take home work. Most professionals have to take home work from time to time or work longer hours at times, so I really don't see it as a difference. Where teacher pay does get bad is if you are an assistant coach, or if you volunteer to sponsor organizations. I really do feel that assistant coaches, or for that matter most coaches with the exception of head football and head basketball coaches are under paid. With regard to volunteering for student activities, well that is volunteer work and really no different than me volunteering as a mentor at the Boys & Girls Club, and should not be considered in the hours they work.

[rocknrobn26]

Perch you forgot to add in paid holidays (10?) for non-teachers and extra course required of teachers work w/ or w/o a Masters to maintain certification.

[Perchoutofwater]

RE: teacher wage comparisons

stupid spoiler (I blame TmC)

 

Yeah, because teachers are the only salaried people with bachelor's degrees that work any more than 40 hours a week. As I said it depends on what subject they teach. My wife is a special ed teacher and might bring home work one or two nights every six weeks. I know a few math teachers than never take home work. On the other hand I know some English teachers that are always having to take home work. A lot of it also depends on how the teachers use their conference/free period as well.

[Perchoutofwater]

Perch you forgot to add in paid holidays (10?) for non-teachers and extra course required of teachers work w/ or w/o a Masters to maintain certification.

 

You are correct about he paid Holidays for the average worker. You are incorrect about the continuing education days for teachers as I included them. Of course you are assuming that teachers are the only ones that have continuing education days. Also I don't know many in the real job market that actually use all their sick days, where as I don't know a single teacher that doesn't. Anyway, I know in our office there are 4 paid Holidays, and unless you are in banking I think that is pretty typical, so that really doesn't make much of a statistical difference, but here it is:

 

The average person works 242 (assumes 4 paid Holidays,10 days vacation and 10 days sick leave) days a year.

The average teacher works 179 (includes both instructional days and teacher work days less state and local days) days a year.

So the average teacher works roughly 74% of what the average person does.

The average salary for someone with a bachelor’s degree is $43,205.

The average salary of someone with a master’s degree is $62,300.

The average salary of a RN in Tyler Texas is $54,591.

The average salary of a high school teacher in Tyler, TX is $44,650.

So, in take home pay a high school teacher is 103.3% of that of the average bachelor’s degree, 71.7% of that of the average masters degree, and 81.8% of an RN, while only working 74% of the time of the average worker.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Perchoutofwater

[borge007]

Yeah, because teachers are the only salaried people with bachelor's degrees that work any more than 40 hours a week. As I said it depends on what subject they teach. My wife is a special ed teacher and might bring home work one or two nights every six weeks. I know a few math teachers than never take home work. On the other hand I know some English teachers that are always having to take home work. A lot of it also depends on how the teachers use their conference/free period as well.

You certainly have a very myopic view.

[gbpfan1231]

Listening to a story on the radio right now.

 

Woman worked as a part time teacher in Wisconsin. She worked for a total of 5 years and her highest pay in any year was $7,000. She turns 55 soon and she will be getting a pension check (yes she is truly vested) for $223 per month. So let's do a little math...

 

So the most that she was paid over those 5 years would be $35,000.

 

It will take 13 years and we (oh wait I mean Wisconsin) will pay this person more than what she actually made WORKING. If she dies before that 13 years then her husband gets it.

 

At $223 per month that is $2,676 per year. So she makes 38% of what she made at her highest point when she actually worked every year from now on.

 

She now lives out of state so we get to pay her this nice pension that she can spend it in a different state.

 

Yep these teachers have it real bad.

[Perchoutofwater]

You certainly have a very myopic view.

How so? I didn't say that teachers were over paid. I actually said that I thought assistant coaches and the like were under paid. I just pointed out that teachers as a whole are not underpaid based on their education level, and the amount of time they work. What have I stated that you take exception to?

[rocknrobn26]

I can only speak for IL, and those courses are done usually during the summer, but all we're done off the school calendar. Can't remember how many hours or days, but on their own time.

If your wife doesn't have to bring work home daily, good for her. Many people we know who were in Special Ed eventually got out of it because of "Too much daily paperwork". But still brought work home daily after they were re-assigned to a regular classroom. My wife and I easily averaged 10+ hours per week each doing homework, prep, etc.. Did I mention the committee work that was mandated by contract that took place after working hours? Are there teachers who walk in 5 minutes before the first bell and 5 minutes after the last bell? Yes, but they were few and many were the first to leave the profession adding to the 40-50% attrition rate for teachers in their first five years.

176 days w/ students plus at least 4 w/o students equals 180 contractual days.

Your formula is too simplistic. Your experience w/ the profession is too narrow.

Edited February 22, 2011 by rocknrobn26

[bpwallace49]

That is just days, but still the salary is higher based on days than the typical guy with a bachelor's degree, and I would think most with bachelor's degrees are salaried. I'd also add that it is just income and not total compensation. If you were to consider total compensation the teachers come out even further ahead, as health insurance cost are typically higher for teachers because the majority of them are women. Their insurance package costs as much if not more than the typical corporate package and they work less. Obviously the amount of work teachers have to do grading papers and what not will vary based on what they teach. Most math teachers have very little take home work where as most English teachers have to spend more time grading papers. Also how diligent they are during their conference/work period will determine if they have to take home work. Most professionals have to take home work from time to time or work longer hours at times, so I really don't see it as a difference. Where teacher pay does get bad is if you are an assistant coach, or if you volunteer to sponsor organizations. I really do feel that assistant coaches, or for that matter most coaches with the exception of head football and head basketball coaches are under paid. With regard to volunteering for student activities, well that is volunteer work and really no different than me volunteering as a mentor at the Boys & Girls Club, and should not be considered in the hours they work.

 

I would challenge that assertion on health care you make. Actually Perch, are you on your wife's insurance as she is a teacher? Or does your family have insurance through your company? I have seen families that have a teacher as a paernt have all the insurance through their program depending on the strength/quality of the program. That can skew even more people into that particular group.

 

But perch, you used nurses. How many nurses "take their work home" versus teachers ans their grading/ lesson plans, etc?

 

Your wife is a special needs teacher, correct? Does she have lesson plans or anything to grade?

[borge007]

How so? I didn't say that teachers were over paid. I actually said that I thought assistant coaches and the like were under paid. I just pointed out that teachers as a whole are not underpaid based on their education level, and the amount of time they work. What have I stated that you take exception to?

eg. you don't know a single teacher that doesn't use all their sick days. How many teachers are you basing this on? or Your wife is a special education teacher and brings home work 1 or 2 nights every 6 weeks. Did she ever work in a regular education classroom? Some of your points reflect a myopic view of teachers.

[Brewer]

Wow. Why don't those of you who think that teachers rake in the money while hardly working become teachers? Seems like you would be all over that. Is there a downside that I'm missing here?

[Perchoutofwater]

I can only speak for IL, and those courses are done usually during the summer, but all we're done off the school calendar. Can't remember how many hours or days, but on their own time.

If your wife doesn't have to bring work home daily, good for her. Many people we know who were in Special Ed eventually got out of it because of "Too much daily paperwork". But still brought work home daily after they were re-assigned to a regular classroom. My wife and I easily averaged 10+ hours per week each doing homework, prep, etc.. Did I mention the committee work that was mandated by contract that took place after working hours? Are there teachers who walk in 5 minutes before the first bell and 5 minutes after the last bell? Yes, but they were few and many were the first to leave the profession adding to the 40-50% attrition rate for teachers in their first five years.

176 days w/ students plus at least 4 w/o students equals 180 contractual days.

Your formula is too simplistic. Your experience w/ the profession is too narrow.

 

Do you think teacher is the only profession that ever brings work home? I honestly know very few people that are salaried that do not bring work home. I'd also ask was the regular class day a full 8 hours? Here it is 7 1/2 hours. Again, I'm not saying that teachers are over paid by any means. I'm just saying it is a misconception that they are grossly underpaid. The number of days was based on my wife's school calendar and I included every day that she is contractually obligated to be there, or do something, less her sick/personal days.

 

I would challenge that assertion on health care you make. Actually Perch, are you on your wife's insurance as she is a teacher? Or does your family have insurance through your company? I have seen families that have a teacher as a paernt have all the insurance through their program depending on the strength/quality of the program. That can skew even more people into that particular group.

 

But perch, you used nurses. How many nurses "take their work home" versus teachers ans their grading/ lesson plans, etc?

 

Your wife is a special needs teacher, correct? Does she have lesson plans or anything to grade?

 

My families insurance is through my wife as the school district offers a much better plan than I can afford to offer my employees. This only goes to further show that their total compensation is better than most. My wife does have lessons plans, and does have to grade papers, but she does most of this in her conference period, rather than sitting around talking to other teachers. She also does this while the students are working on assignments during class.

[borge007]

Do you think teacher is the only profession that ever brings work home? I honestly know very few people that are salaried that do not bring work home. I'd also ask was the regular class day a full 8 hours? Here it is 7 1/2 hours. Again, I'm not saying that teachers are over paid by any means. I'm just saying it is a misconception that they are grossly underpaid. The number of days was based on my wife's school calendar and I included every day that she is contractually obligated to be there, or do something, less her sick/personal days.

What do babysitters get per hour? Multiply that # by # of students in the classroom.. Maybe that should be the least amount a teacher should get per hour worked.