yo mama Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Fixed. Just what exactly did he lie about? That breaking the unions was about fixing the budget. While any dollars saved would certain help, it is now 100% clear that his real motivation in crushing the unions was merely to crush the unions. The pro-offered budget justification was a palatable lie used to camouflage partisan political warfare. Please keep in mind that I have huge problems with unions, especially in the context of public education. I am not defending them. But Walker has been shown a liar, which will probably end up setting back reasonable efforts to reform these unsustainable union contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 That breaking the unions was about fixing the budget. While any dollars saved would certain help, it is now 100% clear that his real motivation in crushing the unions was merely to crush the unions. The pro-offered budget justification was a palatable lie used to camouflage partisan political warfare. Please keep in mind that I have huge problems with unions, especially in the context of public education. I am not defending them. But Walker has been shown a liar, which will probably end up setting back reasonable efforts to reform these unsustainable union contracts. Removing collective bargaining privileges will help with the budget by saving money. Read the links I posted a couple of posts before this. He campaigned on fixing the budget and getting WI back on track so, technically, this falls into that category. But even from a non-technical level it really does make sense - we need to remove the stranglehold public unions put on our taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Removing collective bargaining privileges will help with the budget by saving money. Read the links I posted a couple of posts before this. He campaigned on fixing the budget and getting WI back on track so, technically, this falls into that category. But even from a non-technical level it really does make sense - we need to remove the stranglehold public unions put on our taxpayers. I read your links. The there was no quantified analysis about how much money would be saved - just speculation. But that isn't my point - Walker lied about his motivations. He wants to crush unions for political reasons. The speculative budgetary benefit is merely a pretext. His recently recorded telephone conversation proves as much, but I get the impression you don't care what his true motives are because you agree with Walker's ultimate goal. You are certainly free to feel that way. But Walker is still a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 That breaking the unions was about fixing the budget. While any dollars saved would certain help, it is now 100% clear that his real motivation in crushing the unions was merely to crush the unions. "busting" the public sector unions potentially makes the next budget crisis more manageable. and in state like wisconsin, the next budget crisis is probably like 3 months away. according to one way of thinking (folks are free to agree or disagree), he is going after the root problem rather than a quick band-aid over the symptom. to say that makes him a liar seems like quite a reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) It's pretty damn obvious he wasn't honest about his motives and he thinks the end justifies the means. Wasn't the whole phone call about him getting his "Reagen moment" and Wisconsin being the first domino to fall while joking about how he would like to beat opponents with a bat and how he considered planting troublemakers amongst the protesters? Seriously considering planting protesters is pretty unethical in my book. It definitely isn't a reach to call him a slimey politician and I would hope that the fine people of WI would expect better out of their elected officials. Edited February 24, 2011 by bushwacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I read your links. The there was no quantified analysis about how much money would be saved - just speculation. But that isn't my point - Walker lied about his motivations. He wants to crush unions for political reasons. The speculative budgetary benefit is merely a pretext. His recently recorded telephone conversation proves as much, but I get the impression you don't care what his true motives are because you agree with Walker's ultimate goal. You are certainly free to feel that way. But Walker is still a liar. Nothing in the phone conversation was the smoking gun the left was looking for. It's being blown way out of proportion because the left is trying anything and everything to derail this - honestly or dishonestly. I don't know for sure, but I would suspect that this recording was illegal and it wouldn't surprise me if charges are brought. Like I said in an earlier thread, it doesn't matter if this was in the bill or not, the left would hinge on some other language that would spark "outrage" and do the same BS. I just assumed that "fixing the budget" and "making hard choices" meant exactly that - does every detail have to be spelled out months and years in advance to pass muster with the left? Funny how 2 years ago these same WI senators passed a bill raising 1.2 Billion dollars in taxes on us in 17 hours - though they never said anything about raising taxes when they were running for office either. Should i be outraged and call them all liars as well? Or does it just go without saying that all Democrats will raise taxes? If so, should it go without saying that all Republicans will try to bust unions? I respectfully disagree with you that Walker lied. Any savings is good savings at this point - even if its $50 and a bag of chips. I've NEVER like any unions so yes, I do agree with Walker on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 "busting" the public sector unions potentially makes the next budget crisis more manageable. and in state like wisconsin, the next budget crisis is probably like 3 months away. according to one way of thinking (folks are free to agree or disagree), he is going after the root problem rather than a quick band-aid over the symptom. to say that makes him a liar seems like quite a reach. A very, very BIG reach. In fact, an out-of-your-mind-crazy-like-a-fox reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It's pretty damn obvious he wasn't honest about his motives and he thinks the end justifies the means. Wasn't the whole phone call about him getting his "Reagen moment" and Wisconsin being the first domino to fall while talking about how he would like to beat opponents with a bat and how he considered planting troublemakers amongst the protesters? It definitely isn't a reach to call him a dishonest and I would hope that the fine people of WI would expect better out of their elected officials. Well, I guess when you're in denial you'll believe just about anything to make it all better. You're in "aliens kidnapped and probed me" territory now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) "You know, the, well, the only problem with that -- because we thought about that. The problem -- the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I've talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this. The teachers union did some polling of focus groups, I think, and found out that the public turned on 'em the minute they closed school down for a couple days. He blatantly admits the main reason for not planting protesters was because of what polling data from focus groups told him. It's quite obvious he would have engaged in these actions if a political advantage was perceived. The one who can't recognize this as unethical political chicanery is the one in denial. Edited February 24, 2011 by bushwacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 "busting" the public sector unions potentially makes the next budget crisis more manageable. and in state like wisconsin, the next budget crisis is probably like 3 months away. according to one way of thinking (folks are free to agree or disagree), he is going after the root problem rather than a quick band-aid over the symptom. to say that makes him a liar seems like quite a reach. He lied about his true motives. But that doesn't mean he's wrong in what he's trying to accomplish. Those two separate issues are not mutually exclusive. Arguing that Walker's goals are just and correct doesn't make his means of accomplishing them any more or less honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Good read here. In it, I found a reference that ending collective bargaining may save up to 1.44 billion: The tool is the ability to change benefits without having to bargain it, something he says could save local governments about $1.44 billion in the next budget. Yes, this is about more than money: It's about who is in charge of local budgets. Unions respond to every cost-cutting overture in two ways, says Sanfelippo. They contend budget problems are exaggerated. Confronted with numbers, they reply, "just raise taxes," says Sanfelippo. "That's their answer to everything." Voters are boxed into a choice of paying more or getting less. Spending more frugally is never an option. It's not just pensions. It's that the financially failing Milwaukee Public Schools were sued by a teachers union demanding that benefits cover Viagra. It's that the educationally failing MPS for years has found reforms blocked by union intransigence. It's that union work rules allowed one Madison bus driver to pull in $159,000 a year and that the majority of Wisconsin school districts find themselves stuck with overpriced health insurance from an affiliate of the teachers union. Edited February 24, 2011 by tosberg34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 He blatantly admits the main reason for not planting protesters was because of what polling data from focus groups told him. It's quite obvious he would have engaged in these actions if a political advantage was perceived. The one who can't recognize this as unethical political chicanery is the one in denial. Kinda like having operatives slash tires on buses intended to take people to the polls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chester Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) It's interesting living in Wisconsin right now. I don't have to start weather or Packer threads for us to get noticed. Edited February 24, 2011 by chester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mucca Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 How much is this costing Taxpayers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Pedo Bear makes an appearance in the WI protests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Pedo Bear makes an appearance in the WI protests How did we ever live before the internet. Think of all the smartassness we missed out on. Edited February 25, 2011 by TimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 How much is this costing Taxpayers I've never heard of that before. I have seen administrators "retire" and then get "rehired" to maximize their pension though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Average teacher salary for a few communities: Green Bay = 51k salary 26k fring = total 77k LaCrose = 55k salary 28k fringe = total 83k Mequon = 66k salary 30k fringe = total 96k That is some pretty good pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 How much is this costing Taxpayers That is complete bullcrap that shouldnt be allowed at all. I know a "retired" police chief that got out with full benefits and pension in Illinois and is now a police chief as an "ouitside contractor" in Texas. Same kind of double dipping. That is the kind of crap that makes these funds insolvent even quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Average teacher salary for a few communities: Green Bay = 51k salary 26k fring = total 77k LaCrose = 55k salary 28k fringe = total 83k Mequon = 66k salary 30k fringe = total 96k That is some pretty good pay. Ummm, if you say so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Average teacher salary for a few communities: Green Bay = 51k salary 26k fring = total 77k LaCrose = 55k salary 28k fringe = total 83k Mequon = 66k salary 30k fringe = total 96k That is some pretty good pay. That is the average. Not STARTING pay, and what teachers get in job security they sacrifice in opportunity for pay raises. Of course, unless you get a poor eceonomy like now and all of a sudden they are overpaid and must be purged, then you wouldnt notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 That is the average. Not STARTING pay, and what teachers get in job security they sacrifice in opportunity for pay raises. Of course, unless you get a poor eceonomy like now and all of a sudden they are overpaid and must be purged, then you wouldnt notice. Thanks for pointing out that it is average. I guess when I stated average it meant STARTING. So in Mequon making over 90k in total pay should be more because these poor individuals SACRIFICED pay raises???? Who cares if the economy is bad or not - These teachers are paid very very well and it is not extreme to do what Walker is asking them to pay in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Thanks for pointing out that it is average. I guess when I stated average it meant STARTING. So in Mequon making over 90k in total pay should be more because these poor individuals SACRIFICED pay raises???? Who cares if the economy is bad or not - These teachers are paid very very well and it is not extreme to do what Walker is asking them to pay in. Keep in mind that I have said that the requests are very reasonable to what Walker is asking for health care and pensions. That is very different than you ranting about their average pay and you opining that you think "they are paid very very well". What is that in relation to? What you make? What you think they "ought" to make? I am not saying they sacrificed pay raises (even though they have in exchange for pension benefits), I am saying that being a teacher automatically limits your earning potential over time. teachers dont get huge bonuses or raises. In exchange for that, they have a system that benefits them later on and have ridiculous job security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Keep in mind that I have said that the requests are very reasonable to what Walker is asking for health care and pensions. That is very different than you ranting about their average pay and you opining that you think "they are paid very very well". What is that in relation to? What you make? What you think they "ought" to make? I am not saying they sacrificed pay raises (even though they have in exchange for pension benefits), I am saying that being a teacher automatically limits your earning potential over time. teachers dont get huge bonuses or raises. In exchange for that, they have a system that benefits them later on and have ridiculous job security. I am not saying in relation to me or anyone else - I would find it hard to believe that anyone would not agree that those salaries show they are paid very well - also keep in mind for not a full year - now don't twist my words to say they don't work hard or that they don't put in extra time - I am sure most do. Can you ever just read a post and take it for what it is? I posted some salary information and stated that it showed they are well paid (in my opinion). I was not ranting and not trying to compare it to myself. You are correct that they have a system that benefits them later on and they have incredible job security - but those things are a big reason why WI is in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Average teacher salary for a few communities: Green Bay = 51k salary 26k fring = total 77k LaCrose = 55k salary 28k fringe = total 83k Mequon = 66k salary 30k fringe = total 96k That is some pretty good pay. Where did these #'s come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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