Norv Turner prefers Zack Crockett........

[Big Score 1]

A big Uh Oh for Lamont Jordan & his TD potential.....this ain't good news!

 

RAIDERS NOTEBOOK

Crockett keeps his role in offense

Nancy Gay, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, August 5, 2005

 

"The arrival of running back LaMont Jordan as the Raiders' free-agent savior for their dismal rushing attack never caused Zack Crockett to lose a moment's sleep.

 

The smiling, dread-locked fullback, after all, is the undisputed choice for short-yardage pay dirt, with 21 red-zone touchdowns the past three seasons. He does tend to punch it in, whether it's for a first down or into the end zone.

 

So Crockett, despite the Raiders' status as the NFL's worst rushing team (80.9 yards per game) in 2004, knew he wouldn't be a forgotten man in the '05 offense, even with the addition of Jordan to the backfield.

 

Jordan and Crockett have split duties during red-zone drills in camp. Jordan, the former backup to NFL rushing leader Curtis Martin, is respected for his short-yardage ability. But coaches can't dispute Crockett's effectiveness.

 

"LaMont is a good short-yardage back," coach Norv Turner said. "But obviously Zack might be the best there is."

 

"A year ago we really went through a period where we didn't have a lead blocker other than Zack. That was a decision we made," Turner said. "I would see Zack being the short-yardage back, knowing that LaMont has been awfully good at it."

 

www.sfgate.com

 

Methinks the likelihood of Jordan seeing single digit TD's this season is pretty high. I figure him for about 8 TD's now.

[bushwacked]

I was a little skeptical on Jordan anyway. Still think he is worth taking in the third as a 2nd RB if available.

[Swampnuts]

Thanks Big Score, I'm glad Turner is telling us now.

[Big Score 1]

Yeah, between Crockett & Moss (and to a lesser extent Porter, Curry & Anderson), I just don't see Jordan being as much of a TD producer as one would like to think, going by Turner's past stints as OC with backs like Emmitt, LT2, Terry Allen et al.

 

A lot of people completely overlook Turner's history with the Rams.

 

As Receivers Coach with the Rams (1985-90), wide receiver Henry Ellard twice surpassed the 1,000-yard receiving mark, with an NFL-high 1,414 in 1988 and 1,382 the following year, placing him fourth in the NFL. I'm not even bringing up Flipper Anderson. In his final three years with the Rams (1988-90), tight end Pete Holohan averaged 53 catches a season and finished second among NFC tight ends in receiving in two of those three years.

 

Also check Norv's track record as the Head Coach of the Skins.

 

Under Turner, three different Redskin quarterbacks surpassed the 3,000-yard passing plateau, including Brad Johnson, who finished fourth in the NFL with 4,005 yards in 1999, the second-highest total in Redskins history.

 

Most people forget that Norv cut his coaching teeth on the Coryell, Zampeze type offense. Everyone only seems to want to remember his OC days in Dallas, Miami, San Diego and as the HC in Washington, all anybody wants to talk about is Terry Allen or Stephen Davis.

 

I don't think Jordan will be on any of my FF teams this year. And it's not because I think he lacks talent, it's because too many people are drinking the Jordan kool-aid. He'll be long gone before I would feel comfortable drafting him.

[billay]

wait a sec, I thought Jordan was the second coming?

 

[Big Score 1]

Yeah....I saw some insane projections for Jordan.

[BS Miscreant]

Yeah....I saw some insane projections for Jordan.

 

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I don't see any reason why Jordan would put up numbers any less impressive than Reggie Williams this year.

...Reggie Williams...  so I'm only gonna project him to about.....1,600yds, 15TDs??  Give or take. 

 

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[Chavez]

Yeah, between Crockett & Moss (and to a lesser extent Porter, Curry & Anderson), I just don't see Jordan being as much of a TD producer as one would like to think, going by Turner's past stints as OC with backs like Emmitt, LT2, Terry Allen et al.

 

A lot of people completely overlook Turner's history with the Rams.

 

As Receivers Coach with the Rams (1985-90), wide receiver Henry Ellard twice surpassed the 1,000-yard receiving mark, with an NFL-high 1,414 in 1988 and 1,382 the following year, placing him fourth in the NFL. I'm not even bringing up Flipper Anderson. In his final three years with the Rams (1988-90), tight end Pete Holohan averaged 53 catches a season and finished second among NFC tight ends in receiving in two of those three years.

Receivers coaches don't call the plays; Zampese was OC for the Rams. Also, a quick look shows that from 85-90 the Rams featured a workhorse RB that ran for double-digit TDs EVERY YEAR (Dickerson 85-86, Charles White 87, Greg Bell 88-89, Cleveland Gary 90) and every one of them except Gary had 1000 yds.

Also check Norv's track record as the Head Coach of the Skins.

 

Under Turner, three different Redskin quarterbacks surpassed the 3,000-yard passing plateau, including Brad Johnson, who finished fourth in the NFL with 4,005 yards in 1999, the second-highest total in Redskins history.

 

Most people forget that Norv cut his coaching teeth on the Coryell, Zampeze type offense. Everyone only seems to want to remember his OC days in Dallas, Miami, San Diego and as the HC in Washington, all anybody wants to talk about is Terry Allen or Stephen Davis.

 

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"Passing 3000 yds" isn't exactly rarified air. And the year Johnson topped 4k, the Skins finished 10th in rushing att, 9th in yds, and 1st in tds.

 

I've broken it down before - check the stats of future Hall of Famer Micheal Irvin and borderline HoF candidate Henry Ellard under Turner's direction - with all their 1000 yds seasons and catches as the #1 WRs in explosive offenses, they tallied ONE double-digit td season.

 

Crockett taking goal line carries away certainly hurts Jordan, but I still don't see Turner trending away from what he's done darn near EVERY YEAR HE'S BEEN AN OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR OR HEAD COACH.

[Chavez]

a quick look shows that from 85-90 the Rams featured a workhorse RB that ran for double-digit TDs EVERY YEAR (Dickerson 85-86, Charles White 87, Greg Bell 88-89, Cleveland Gary 90) and every one of them except Gary had 1000 yds.

 

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As a matter of fact, all of them except Gary topped 1100 yds.

[notamomo]

Norv's Turner's offense is based on the standard, 2 WR, I formation. Lots of runs. And lots of play action. The same look on many downs, whether passing or running. With a decent O-Line (Raiders are decent here), a mobile QB with solid play-action skills and deep ball(Collins has both) and a single talented WR (Moss, without a doubt)- Norv's offenses are always excellent. They run the ball until the safeties move up to run protect and then Norv loves to thow deep.

 

Norv likes to keep the same team on the field to keep the same look and the defense guessing. Not that he won't change, but I don't ever remember old Norv using a goal-line back. Even with undersized Emmit- the all-time rushing TD leader.

 

I think this is all talk to:

-keep Lamont hungry

-keep Zack happy

-give people something to talk about besides the huge season Collins will have.

[Chavez]

Here's the previous breakdown on Turner's passing proclivities:

 

The only Norv-coordinated/head coached team that tallied 2 1000 yd WRs was the 1999 Washington Redskins. That was also the only time an offense on a team he was head coach of finished in the top 10 in yards and scoring - the only other top 10 finish aside from that year was 8th in yds in '96.

 

Average finish in pass attempts of Norv's offenses as head coach was 12th; average finish in rushing attempts was 18th.

 

As co-ordinator in Dallas from 90-93, his offense finished 7-8 in pts-yds in 91, and 2-4 in both 92 and 93. In rushing attempts, they finished 22nd, 17th, 4th, and 6th; in pass attempts, they finished 14th, 14th, 12th, and 24th.

 

As coordinator and HC, his teams (90-93 Cowboys, 94-00 Redskins, 02-03 Dolphins, 04 Raiders) have featured 8 WRs who've cracked the 1000 yd mark, plus a couple near-misses (Chambers in '03 with 963 yds and Porter last year with 998), but only 4 players who tallied over 1300 yds (Irvin 91-93, Henry Ellard in 94). His 90 Cowboy, 97, 98, and 00 Redskin teams, both Dolphin years and last year were without 1000 yd WRs. And in 95 and 96, Ellard just barely squeaked over 1000 (1005 and 1014, respectively) yds despite averaging 18.7 ypc. In his bio, it says Turner "oversaw" the LA Rams passing game from 85-90. In this time, Henry Ellard had 3 1000 yd seasons (all 3 around 1300+ yds, and 10 tds in 88) from 88-90 and Flipper Anderson had 2 in 89 and 90.

 

Not sure how much credit to assign, though, since Ernie Zampese held the title of offensive co-ordinator at that time.

 

Most notable, though, is the only WR to crack double digits in all this time was Ellard in '88.

[Big Score 1]

I still don't see Turner trending away from what he's done darn near EVERY YEAR HE'S BEEN AN OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR OR HEAD COACH.

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So what you're saying is, you're going to cherry pick which Coaching positions Turner held and how he performed at them, when applying your projections to Jordan?

 

The fact he was an excellent WR Coach who produced a top 4 NFL season out of Ellard is to be quickly thrown by the wayside.

 

However, when he was the OC on a Jimmy Johnson built team with one of the finest run blocking O'lines in NFL history, a Moose at FB (pun intended) and arguably the best runner in NFL history, this points to LaMont Jordan having a monster season.

 

Hello....wake up and smell the coffee.

 

If Norv had even tried to turn that team into a passing offense, it would've been a case of square peg meeting round hole.

Jimmy Johnson would've shown him the door and told him not to let it hit him on the way out, so fast it would've made your head spin.

 

Same in San Diego with LT2.....square peg meet round hole. I mean come on, is Norv going to ignore LT2's talents, to instead feature the passing game and showcase Curtis Conway & Jeff freakin' Graham. Mike Riley and the entire San Diego team would've railroaded Turner out of town if he'd of tried that.

 

What about in Miami? Same darn thing. A Jimmy Johnson built team predicated towards the run and taken over by Wanny, another big proponent of the run game. What did you expect Norv to do here? Ignore Ricky Williams and instead feature the passing game of Jay Fiedler & Chris Chambers? Can you say pink slip?

 

Don't overlook the fact that the Raiders are an Al Davis team. Always have been & always will be....till the day he dies. Do you really think Al "The Mad Bomber" Davis went out and signed Randy Moss, so that Norv could feature LaMont Jordan.

 

Norv ain't stupid....he knows who signs his pay checks.

 

Now Norv point blank says that Crockett is going to be his short yardage back and he thinks Crockett is one of the best in the business at it.....yet you still want to drink the LaMont Jordan kool-aid.

 

Hey, if you want to see it that way and ignore everything else, you go right ahead.

Edited August 7, 2005 by Big Score 1

[Big Score 1]

a mobile QB with solid play-action skills and deep ball(Collins has both)

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No offense notamomo, but you are 100% mistaken if you think Collins is a mobile QB.

[Chavez]

I'm not drinking Kool-Aid, and I'm not cherry-picking. If you look at Turner's history, even when he's had GOOD WRs (Irvin, Ellard, Chambers), they haven't produced tds historically - if Turner gets hold of your WRs, it seems his #1 can expect to catch a td every other game and get around 900-1200 yds. And even when Turner has had who-dat backs (Charles White, Greg Bell, Cleveland Gary (if you want to include the Rams), creaky-kneed Terry Allen, Stephen Davis), they HAVE churned out tds and yards. Even a talent like Ricky Williams - due to numerous circumstances, he managed about 3100 rushing yds and 16 rushing tds in 3 seasons with NO; in TWO years under Turner in Miami, he got 3200 yds and 25 rushing tds.

 

You seem to be overlooking a fairly strong, twenty year trend. But if you think a leopard is going to change its spots....

[Chavez]

As it stands for Crockett vs Jordan, I'd project at least one rushing td a game for the Raiders; I don't see Crockett grabbing more than half, which would still leave about 8 tds for Jordan plus most of the work from the 5 yard line out, so I'd still hang his yardage totals at 1200+.

 

1200-8 aren't first pick numbers, but they certainly don't hurt the cause as #2 RB.

[Savage Beatings]

You seem to be overlooking a fairly strong, twenty year trend. But if you think a leopard is going to change its spots....

 

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But he has never had a Moss-caliber receiver at his disposal either. Moss changes everything IMO.

[Big Score 1]

As it stands for Crockett vs Jordan, I'd project at least one rushing td a game for the Raiders; I don't see Crockett grabbing more than half, which would still leave about 8 tds for Jordan plus most of the work from the 5 yard line out, so I'd still hang his yardage totals at 1200+.

 

1200-8 aren't first pick numbers, but they certainly don't hurt the cause as #2 RB.

 

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If he puts up that yardage number, he would indeed be a decent #2. Problem I have is that they are a bunch of backs that could put up those type numbers who could be had later than Jordan is likely to get drafted and are far less risky.

 

Like I said earlier, I doubt Jordan is on any of my teams this year, because you just know someone is going to draft him way way too early with all the hype.

[Chavez]

But he has never had a Moss-caliber receiver at his disposal either.  Moss changes everything IMO.

 

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Irvin and Ellard hardly sucked. That's the thing about "well, Moss is a threat in the end zone" - you telling me you don't think Irvin, in his prime, was a red-zone threat? But his best year was 9 tds - and that was with Troy Aikman throwing the ball to him. Both of those guys, while somewhat overrated, are going to the Hall of Fame.

[Big Score 1]

You seem to be overlooking a fairly strong, twenty year trend. But if you think a leopard is going to change its spots....

 

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Tell me again what that leoprad did last year.

 

It also seems to me you are overlooking a fairly strong 40+ year trend with Al Davis

[Big Score 1]

Irvin and Ellard hardly sucked.....

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NO FREAKIN WAY were either of those guys anywhere near the red zone threat that Moss is. C'mon Chavez, that's just awful.

[Avernus]

If he puts up that yardage number, he would indeed be a decent #2. Problem I have is that they are a bunch of backs that could put up those type numbers who could be had later than Jordan is likely to get drafted and are far less risky.

 

Like I said earlier, I doubt Jordan is on any of my teams this year, because you just know someone is going to draft him way way too early with all the hype.

 

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he's a late 2nd or early 3rd round pick IMO....he's never been higher unless every pick is a RB in the 1st and 2nd round leading up to my pick...which won't happen...

[Chavez]

If he puts up that yardage number, he would indeed be a decent #2. Problem I have is that they are a bunch of backs that could put up those type numbers who could be had later than Jordan is likely to get drafted and are far less risky.

 

Heck, I'll bet a sigline on those numbers. This is your standard "two reasonably smart people looking at the same thing and drawing different conclusions" - you see Moss and Crockett vulturing tds, I see a strong trend of Norv Turner pounding a primary back at the goal line.

Like I said earlier, I doubt Jordan is on any of my teams this year, because you just know someone is going to draft him way way too early with all the hype.

 

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Now THIS point I understand. Taking a quick look, The Sporting News has him at #22. I'd probably bump him up into the top 15 - LT and Alexander are tier 1, Priest gets tier 2 due to injury concerns, along with Edge, McGahee, Portis, J Lewis, and R Johnson. Jordan would be in the big muddle at tier 3 for me.

[Chavez]

NO FREAKIN WAY were either of those guys anywhere near the red zone threat that Moss is. C'mon Chavez, that's just awful.

 

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Irvin was 6'2" and the King of the Push-Off - that's not a "red zone threat"?

 

Moss is a rare athlete, but short passing tds are due less to speed than to size and jumping ability. Irvin had size, and Chris Chambers can jump out of the stadium. Maybe they aren't in Moss's class, but wouldn't you have tried to get them the ball in the end zone?

[Chavez]

he's a late 2nd or early 3rd round pick IMO....he's never been higher unless every pick is a RB in the 1st and 2nd round leading up to my pick...which won't happen...

 

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I'd be happy to get him about there.

[Big Score 1]

I see a strong trend of Norv Turner pounding a primary back at the goal line.

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Hmmmm....I see Norv saying this

"LaMont is a good short-yardage back," coach Norv Turner said. "But obviously Zack might be the best there is."

 

"A year ago we really went through a period where we didn't have a lead blocker other than Zack. That was a decision we made," Turner said. "I would see Zack being the short-yardage back, knowing that LaMont has been awfully good at it."

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