Rules question ...

[Grits and Shins]

We had an issue arise in one of my leagues this week. The issue has been resolved but I am curious as to other leagues out there handle this situation.

 

The league is an optional 2 player keeper league. Until this year your 1st keeper cost you your 1st round pick and your 2nd keeper cost you your 2nd round pick. This year you lose the draft pick in this year's draft that corresponds to the round in which you originally drafted the player.

 

Keeper declarations were finalized July 31, BEFORE draft position had been established.

 

The last dice roll was August 2nd and draft position was determined. The draft won't start until August 15th or so.

 

One of our owners drafted LT with the 1st overall pick last year and declared LT as one of his keepers. He managed (to his dismay) to snag the first overall draft pick again this year. Obviously he would have preferred to have the 12th pick so that he could have the 1st pick in the 2nd round.

 

He then traded his 1.01 and 2.12 picks for another owners 1.11 and 2.02 picks.

 

This is where the issue is ... can he trade the 1.01 pick away even though that pick is where his current keeper, LT is as long as he gets a 1st round draft pick back (1.11) to use for his keeper.

 

One camp says that he automatically forfeited his 1.01 pick when he kept LT.

The other camp says that he only has to have ANY 1st round draft pick, not necessarily the one he ended up with in the draft.

 

This is my only optional keeper league and I was wondering how other leagues handle this situation.

Edited August 5, 2005 by Grits and Shins

[Caveman_Nick]

If he's keeping a player, he forefeits the pick. If he wants to trade his pick, he can't keep a player.

 

In essence, as soon as he declares he is keeping, which really should be stated in the bylaws needs to happen before any trades are made, then he no longer has a pick to trade.

[Grits and Shins]

If he's keeping a player, he forefeits the pick.  If he wants to trade his pick, he can't keep a player.

 

In essence, as soon as he declares he is keeping, which really should be stated in the bylaws needs to happen before any trades are made, then he no longer has a pick to trade.

 

912482[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Apparently the rules aren't that clear:

 

2. Owners will declare their specific keepers by July 31. On August 1st the owners are locked into their keepers regardless of any circumstances surrounding their individual players (like injuries, retirements etc.). Owners who fail to declare their keepers by July 31, regardless of circumstances, will not be allowed any keepers. If an owner is concerned he may miss the deadline because of personal or extenuating circumstances the option exists to declare keepers early as keepers are not actually frozen until August 1st (so they can be changed any time before then).

 

3. Owners will forfeit the draft pick in the current draft that corresponds to the round where the kept player was originally drafted; ie if the player was originally drafted in the 3rd round, the owner forfeits his 3rd round pick this year. If the player was a free agent the owner will forfeit his 6th round draft pick.

 

4. Owners MUST have a draft pick available that corresponds to the keeper's value; ie to keep a player drafted in the 1st round you must have a 1st round pick to forfeit. If an owner wants to keep 2 players that were drafted in the same round (and he only has one pick for that round) he must give up that round's draft pick AND the draft pick for the prior round; ie if an owner wants to keep 2 players that were drafted in the 3rd round he will have to give up his 2nd and 3rd round draft picks. Two players drafted in the first round could only be kept if the owner has 2 first round draft choices (via trade with another owner).

 

5. Trades have no impact on when a player was drafted or his tenure as a keeper; ie when a player is traded he carries his tenure and draft position with him.

 

 

 

1. Draft order will be determined by a random dice server (http://www.irony.com/mailroll.html). Owners will roll for draft position during the week AFTER keeper declarations; i.e. August 1st thru August 7th. Any owner that does not roll the dice in this week will have a roll generated for them by the commissioner. The draft will be ordered from lowest to highest with the lowest roll getting the 1st overall pick and the highest roll getting the 12th overall pick.

[Grits and Shins]

Forgetting about the rules for a moment ... I am curious as to how other keeper leagues handle this situation.

[Brentastic]

The way I see it, he does not have a 1st round pick to trade. Essentially, he has already used his 1.01 on L.T. You can't trade a pick you don't have. If he would have made the trade before selecting his keeper, it would be valid. But after the fact, no way. Basically, the moment he kept L.T., he used his 1.01. End of discussion.

[loaf]

we don't have a keeper rule anymore but it was that the owner forfeited his pick when he decided to keep. Meaning, he doesn't have a pick to trade.

[Big Country]

Keepers were declared July 31st. The owner holding LT forfeited his rights to a draft pick in the first round to do so on July 31st. Therefore, he does not have a first round pick to trade on August 2nd, he has LT to trade if he wishes.

 

Now, if draft order were set on July 31st, and keepers were not due until August 2nd and the trade was made BEFORE keepers were announced, I would have zero problem with the trade, it is just smart team management.

 

However, because the keepers were declared first, that action is taken first. He has forfeited his first round pick regardless of where that pick ended up being. The moment draft order was determined, those particular picks forfeited for keepers are thrown out (trying to say, we know the owner gave up his first for LT, but until the draft order was detemined, we did not know exactly what pick he gave up). At the time the draft order was determined, he already DID NOT HAVE A PICK, he had LT.

[Brentastic]

This is definitely a no-brainer IMO. Rule number 3 states this clearly.

[Brentastic]

The way I see it, he does not have a 1st round pick to trade.  Essentially, he has already used his 1.01 on L.T.  You can't trade a pick you don't have.  If he would have made the trade before selecting his keeper, it would be valid.  But after the fact, no way.  Basically, the moment he kept L.T., he used his 1.01.  End of discussion.

 

912499[/snapback]

 

 

 

So Grits, how was the issue resolved? If your comish has any sort of brain, the trade won't happen. If the trade was allowed to happen, I'd like to know the justification.

[Grits and Shins]

Here is some of the related discussion that went on:

 

Trading owner

Umm...no. The rule states:

 

3. Owners will forfeit the draft pick in the current draft that corresponds to the round where the kept player was originally drafted; ie if the player was originally drafted in the 3rd round, the owner forfeits his 3rd round pick this year. If the player was a free agent the owner will forfeit his 6th round draft pick.

 

After the trade, I have the #11 pick in the 1st round which I will forfeit for LT.

 

Commissioner

You will note that in the case it says "the owner forfeits HIS 3rd round pick".

 

We declared keepers July 31st.

We rolled the dice August 1st and 2nd.

Draft position was established once the last owner rolled and owners immediately forfeited the draft picks that corresponded to their keepers.

 

That means you have ALREADY used the 1.01 pick to draft L.Tomlinson and as such this draft pick is not available for you to trade. You can see this by looking at the Draft Report.

 

When I loaded keepers I was required to assign a draft position to them BEFORE they could be loaded to the rosters ... the only draft picks that were available to assign were the draft picks associated with the owner in question. That means when I assigned a draft pick to LT so you could keep him I had to assign 1.01.

 

Now if you had traded picks BEFORE draft position was established you might have a case for picking which draft pick you get to forfeit.

 

As commissioner I'm going to rule that the draft pick forfeited for a keeper is the draft pick that the owner got as a result of the roll ... and I will tighten the rules up to reflect this.

 

Trading owner

I beg to differ. The draft has yet to start and I chose to trade the #1 pick. Where does it state in our rules that keepers will be assigned draft slots immediately after the dice roll?

 

We do this all the time in (another league). I really don't see your point.

 

Commissioner

Another way to look at it ... your 1.01 pick is protecting LT until the draft officially starts. The only way you could possibly trade away the 1.01 pick is if you first UNPROTECTED LT and by our rules LT's status as a keeper is frozen and he can not be unprotected.

 

Trading owner

OK, then inform me where in our rules it says that keepers are to be assigned to draft slots immediately following the dice roll?

 

If, by your premise, my 1.01 pick is "holding" LT until the draft, then how could I have had LT on my roster from the morning of 8/1 until 8/1 at 10:28 PM when I rolled the dice? I didn't have a draft slot, so he couldn't have been assigned until I rolled the dice. What if I waited until 8/15 to roll the dice?

 

The assigning of keepers to draft slot is completely arbitrary and is NOT spelled-out in the rules. Why couldn't they have been assigned on 8/15 instead of 8/2 or 8/3? The answer is they could have. The fact that the commissioner chose to assign them immediately should have no bearing.

 

Commissioner

If you had not rolled by 8/7 I would have rolled for you as explained in the rules.

 

When you declared LT as your keeper you committed to giving up the 1st round pick you would get as a result of the dice roll. Our rules specify that when you declare a keeper you forfeit the pick in the round of this year's draft that corresponds to the round in which the player was originally drafted. So in the window of time between 8/1 and 8/7 (or the day of the last roll if it occurs before 8/7 like it did this year) while we didn't know the specific first round draft pick you would forfeit in order to retain the services of LT we knew that whatever first round draft pick you ended up with was forfeited. You might say we 'loaned' you LT until you could pay with your draft pick that came to you as a result of the roll. The loan payment was due in full at the conclusion of the roll.

 

In the example specified in our rules it states the owner forfeits "HIS" 3rd round draft pick. It does not specify that the owner forfeits A 3rd round draft pick of his choosing.

 

Clearly if we allowed this type of trade the guy that keeps a 1st rounder and draws the 1.01 pick will trade with an owner that doesn't have a 1st round keeper and a late pick every year. In year's previous we changed the rules so that owners had to declare the number of keepers they had BEFORE the dice roll to prevent the guy in the 1st slot from having an unfair advantage ... which is why we still roll the dice AFTER we have declared our keepers. Those of us that decided to keep a 1st round player took the risk that we would end up with an early pick.

 

If I allow this trade the 4 owners with picks before (other trading owner) are getting screwed simply because they didn't end up with the last real pick in the 1st round. And (owner at draft position 2) is getting penalized because he didn't have the 1st overall pick to offer to (other trading owner) and he must live with his 2nd slot.

 

No I believe that the keeper is inextricably tied to the draft pick you get as a result of the roll.

 

I will, however, allow you to do this if you get a majority of the owners not involved to vote to allow it.

Edited August 5, 2005 by Grits and Shins

[Caveman_Nick]

This clearly sounds like 2 owners trying to job the rules.

 

I like the response you gave regarding the owner vote.

 

I would certainly take the time to, pending the results of the vote, clarify the league bylaws.

[Grits and Shins]

So Grits, how was the issue resolved?  If your comish has any sort of brain, the trade won't happen.  If the trade was allowed to happen, I'd like to know the justification.

 

912518[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

The commissioner allowed a vote and the LT owner lost 10-2.

 

Rules were tightened up to prevent future problems:

 

 

FORMAT

Optional Keepers (0, 1 or 2)

1.  This is a 12 team, optional 2-keeper league.  Owners may keep 0, 1 or 2 players each year.

 

2.  Owners will declare their specific keepers by July 31.   On August 1st the owners are locked into their keepers regardless of any circumstances surrounding their individual players (like injuries, retirements etc.).  Owners who fail to declare their keepers by July 31, regardless of circumstances, will not be allowed any keepers.  If an owner is concerned he may miss the deadline because of personal or extenuating circumstances the option exists to declare keepers early as keepers are not actually frozen until August 1st (so they can be changed any time before then).

 

3.  ALL trading is suspended starting August 1st and until all owners have rolled the dice and draft positions have been established. 

 

4.  Owners will forfeit the draft pick in the current year's draft that corresponds to the round where the kept player was originally drafted.; ie if the player was originally drafted in the 3rd round, the owner forfeits his 3rd round pick this year.    Once draft order has been established each owner automatically forfeits his draft picks that are associated with his keepers; i.e. if an owner gets the first overall draft pick and has a first round keeper then he will automatically forfeit the 1.01 pick.  If his other keeper is from the 12th round then he automatically forfeits his 12.12 pick.  Once draft order is established the appropriate draft picks for each owner’s keepers are inextricably tied to each keeper and may not be traded away.   EXCEPTION:  If, before August 1st, an owner has 2 picks in a round for which he must forfeit 1 pick for a keeper, the keeper will be assigned the pick that is most advantagous to the owner.  So if an owner has pick 3.02 has a result of the dice roll and pick 3.11 which he acquired in a trade (before August 1st) and he has a 3rd round keeper, the keeper will be assigned draft pick 3.11 instead of 3.02.

 

5.  Keepers that were previously obtained on the waiver wire by their owners will require that the owner forfeit his 6th round draft pick, meaning our owner with the 1st overall pick would have to forfeit his 6.12 pick for any free agent acquisition keeper.

 

6.  Owners MUST have a draft pick available that corresponds to the keeper's value; ie to keep a player drafted in the 1st round you must have a 1st round pick to forfeit.  Owners can NOT declare a keeper for which a draft position can not be assigned; i.e. you can not keep a 1st rounder if you have no 1st round pick (due to a trade) prior to August 1st.  If an owner wants to keep 2 players that were drafted in the same round (and he only has one pick for that round) he must give up that round's draft pick AND the draft pick for the prior round; ie if an owner wants to keep 2 players that were drafted in the 3rd round he will have to give up his 2nd and 3rd round draft picks.  Two players drafted in the first round could only be kept if the owner has 2 first round draft choices (via trade with another owner).

 

7.  Trades have no impact on when a player was drafted or his tenure as a keeper; ie when a player is traded he carries his tenure and draft position with him.

 

8.  Players may only be kept twice, i.e. they can only be retained on an owner's roster for three years (the year they were drafted and kept twice).

 

Draft

1. Draft order will be determined by a random dice server (http://www.irony.com/mailroll.html).  Owners will roll for draft position during the week AFTER keeper declarations; i.e. August 1st thru August 7th.  Any owner that does not roll the dice in this week will have a roll generated for them by the commissioner.  The draft will be ordered from lowest to highest with the lowest roll getting the 1st overall pick and the highest roll getting the 12th overall pick.

 

2. We will complete a 17-round serpentine draft to fill a 17-man roster (1 to 12, 12 to 1, 1 to 12, etc.).  Owners that have declared keepers will forfeit a draft pick as defined in the "Optional Keepers" section of these rules.  The order of the draft is NOT impacted by forfeited draft picks.  This means the first 'real' pick of the first round is made by the first owner that did not keep a first rounder from a previous season.

 

3.  Off season and draft trades are permitted.  Draft picks may be traded any time except between August 1st and the end of the current year's dice roll to establish draft position/

 

ROSTER MOVES

Trades

In the offseason owners are allowed to trade players and/or picks for players and/or picks.  The trade need not be "even" except that when an owner gives up a draft pick he must get one in return (it can be from the last round).  Any owner that receives a player in an offseason trade is required to keep said player unless a significant change in his professional status occurs prior to the freezing of the keeper declarations (like a season ending injury or being cut from his team).  Owners trading away players are not required to trade players that were previous keepers but may trade any player on their roster.

 

Between July 31st and the end of the dice roll trading is suspended.  Once draft order has been established trading may resume, however, draft picks forfeited for keepers can NOT be traded.

 

After the conclusion of the draft, trades are allowed for any team up to and including week #13 of the regular season. Even amount of players exchanged only. Trades will be handles on the myfantasyleague site. You may also post trades on the league message board in the huddle league section. The trade can be overturned if six of the remaining ten owners find it unfair in the next 24 hours. Deadline for players involved in a trade to make that week’s lineup is 12 noon Saturday, EST.  When keepers are traded, the years of service on their existing contract DOES NOT CHANGE (a keeper with 1 year left on his contract will still have 1 year left on his contract regardless of the number of times he is traded).

 

Edited August 5, 2005 by Grits and Shins

[Grits and Shins]

Again, though, the issue in our league has been resolved.

 

I was more interested in how other leagues handle this type of situation. Where keepers are declared and there is an interium period between establishment of draft position and actual draft.

[Caveman_Nick]

Keepers in my league cost a first, and then a second round pick, and these picks are not up for trade under any conditions.

[BrooklynCrew]

I play in an optional keeper league where we can keep 0-3 players every year. We have a different system though. Instead of 'losing' corresponding draft picks, we have a supplemental draft before the 'main' draft starts. This way, every owner will have 3 players when the 'main' draft starts. If you keep 0 players, you get 3 picks in the supplemental draft. If you keep 2, you get 1 pick, ect...

 

note - supplemental picks cannot be traded... and that draft is done immediately after keepers are declared among any owners who did not keep 3 players...

Edited August 5, 2005 by BrooklynCrew

[Grits and Shins]

I play in an optional keeper league where we can keep 0-3 players every year.  We have a different system though.  Instead of 'losing' corresponding draft picks, we have a supplemental draft before the 'main' draft starts.  This way, every owner will have 3 players when the 'main' draft starts.  If you keep 0 players, you get 3 picks in the supplemental draft.  If you keep 2, you get 1 pick, ect...

 

note - supplemental picks cannot be traded... and that draft is done immediately after keepers are declared among any owners who did not keep 3 players...

 

912553[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Basically you lose your 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd round draft picks when you keep 1, 2 or 3 players. Even though we didn't have a 'supplemental draft' this is basically what we used to do.

[Rovers]

We assign draft picks based on last year's finish. Everyone knows where they will pick, before they declare keepers. Trading your pick position in a round that you drafted your keeper is not permitted.

[BrooklynCrew]

Basically you lose your 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd round draft picks when you keep 1, 2 or 3 players.  Even though we didn't have a 'supplemental draft' this is basically what we used to do.

 

912563[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, in essence it's the same system...

[T-Scorp]

We can keep up to 7 players and if you keep less you get additonal picks at the END of the draft. Players and picks can be traded at any time.

 

Our draft order is reverse order of finish except for the first four picks which are determined by a lottery amoung the bottom four finishers. It is weighted like the NBA lottery and only for the first round.

[kcmast]

We assign draft picks based on last year's finish. Everyone knows where they will pick, before they declare keepers. Trading your pick position in a round that you drafted your keeper is not permitted.

 

912567[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

That's a good catch. I'm going to propose adding that to my league's rules.

[Fenokee]

Keeper rules in one of my leagues that assigns keepers based upon where they were drafted pretty much mirrors the rules you have in place. Two main differences being that (1) if an owner ends up with 2 players drafted in the 1st round, and wishes to keep both, he forfeits his 1st round pick (obviously) and his 2nd round pick. (2) Free Agent acquisitions are tracked against who was dropped and fill the draft slot accordingly. For example - an owner drafts "X" Defense in the 9th round. During the season, this defense is dropped in favor of Alex Smith (QB SF). Next season, if the owner wishes to retain Smith, it would cost him his 9th round pick.