Predict the # of Manning TD Passes and win.....

[Vet]

One million...no...make that ONE BILLION touchdowns!!!!

[Shotgun Messiahs]

6

He'll get injured in the 3rd quarter of game one for the season.

[I Like Soup]

look 2 posts above yours

 

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Am I the only one shocked that Big John missed this? I expected some obscure info to get the out...not a previous second post!

 

I say 33.

[Big Red]

Unless the mayor and the local political machine played in those games, the championships belong to the Colts. I admire your heartfelt committment, though.

 

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Exactly my point. The players that won those titles have (present tense) ties to Baltimore (Tom Mitchell's golf course, Andy Nelson's BBQ and so on). The great teams identified with Baltimore. Irsay gutted the team as soon as he got it. That is why the 10+ years before the move and the 10 or so years after (before he died), the Colts teams where crap.

 

Look, Indy has their team, their id. I really doubt any self respecting Indy fan would say "Our team won it three times". They are a very good team since getting Manning. I personally would feel retarded claiming victories of the franchise when it played elsewhere. Baltimore does not lay claim to either Browns (baseball or football) legacy. I guess that is something good about Baltimore. The city may like their heroin and ciphilus , but they also make their own sports history.

[Gunther]

That's just what Boomer Esiason says, and everybody rips him

 

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I always think of this post by TimC whenever Marino's and Boomer's names are used together.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Gunther

[Gunther]

53

[CaptainHook]

Look, Indy has their team, their id.  I really doubt any self respecting Indy fan would say "Our team won it three times".

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But the Colts HAVE won it three times. And the Colts ARE in Indy. So technically. . .

 

Do the Ravens get credit for Unitas records? Or do the Colts?

Edited August 19, 2005 by CaptainHook

[abishagenaden]

41

[BeachBum]

54

 

I wanted 50, but the limit kept going up. At least this way I probably won't be wrong until the season is over!

[Big Red]

But the Colts HAVE won it three times.  And the Colts ARE in Indy. So technically. . .

 

Do the Ravens get credit for Unitas records?  Or do the Colts? 

 

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So were the Los Angeles Dodgers the first team to field a black player? There is no technically with this. The Colts have three titles, all won in Baltimore. Nothing to do with Indy at all. Maybe at first they could say 'we just got a team that won the title 14 years ago'. I doubt after 21 seasons, more than half very bad, they've forgotten all about the glorious Baltimore past and are just focused on getting their current team over the hump as they themselves are very close. If the Colts and Manning do with the SuperBowl at some point, will Indy celebrate it as their first championship or 5th?

 

Ask Unitas . He, and most old Baltimore Colts, refused to be associated with them. I can see Bob Irsay not wanting to change the Colts name or release the history as he knew he had done nothing during his tenure to add to the team's greatness. His son does more for that team each year than his old man ever did.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Big Red

[Menudo]

So were the Los Angeles Dodgers the first team to field a black player?  There is no technically with this.  The Colts have three titles, all won in Baltimore.  Nothing to do with Indy at all.  Maybe at first they could say 'we just got a team that won the title 14 years ago'.  I doubt after 21 seasons, more than half very bad, they've forgotten all about the glorious Baltimore past and are just focused on getting their current team over the hump as they themselves are very close.  If the Colts and Manning do with the SuperBowl at some point, will Indy celebrate it as their first championship or 5th?

 

Ask Unitas  .  He, and most old Baltimore Colts, refused to be associated with them.  I can see Bob Irsay not wanting to change the Colts name or release the history as he knew he had done nothing during his tenure to add to the team's greatness.  His son does more for that team each year than his old man ever did.

 

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The only reason any of this got brought up is during an argument comparing the Steelers and Ravens, a Steeler fan brought up that the Ravens needed 3 more Super Bowl trophies to equal what the Steelers have. You then said that they both had 4 championships. That is where we took exception. All of your other points are valid, but you just simply can't combine the two frachises into one. I agree Baltimore had those championships as a city, although, I think claiming championships prior to actual Super Bowls is weak and unimpressive anyway, but they were with two different franchises. I actually think we agree on the whole concept, but it's more fun to argue.

[CaptainHook]

Do Oakland fans get to "count" the Super Bowl the Raiders won in L.A.?

[loaf]

do browns fans get to count the number of Super Bowl victories they've err, uhh, nevermind

[Big Red]

The only reason any of this got brought up is during an argument comparing the Steelers and Ravens, a Steeler fan brought up that the Ravens needed 3 more Super Bowl trophies to equal what the Steelers have.  You then said that they both had 4 championships.  That is where we took exception.  All of your other points are valid, but you just simply can't combine the two frachises into one.  I agree Baltimore had those championships as a city, although, I think claiming championships prior to actual Super Bowls is weak and unimpressive anyway, but they were with two different franchises.  I actually think we agree on the whole concept, but it's more fun to argue.

 

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I don't believe the Ravens have 4 titles, just the one obviously. I usually try to compare the cities, not the teams. However, if we are talking about total titles, I include Baltimore's history. Ravens have only been around for 9 seasons. It would not be fair to include just those 9 years in a comparison as it's not the fans of the Steelers fault that the City of Baltimore and Irsay fracked everything up.

 

 

Do Oakland fans get to "count" the Super Bowl the Raiders won in L.A.?

 

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Uh, no. Doubt they cared or went to any games. Probably felt the same way Cleveland fans did when Baltimore won it all.

 

 

do browns fans get to count the number of Super Bowl victories they've err, uhh, nevermind

 

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[Menudo]

I don't believe the Ravens have 4 titles, just the one obviously.  I usually try to compare the cities, not the teams.  However, if we are talking about total titles, I include Baltimore's history.  Ravens have only been around for 9 seasons.  It would not be fair to include just those 9 years in a comparison as it's not the fans of the Steelers fault that the City of Baltimore and Irsay fracked everything up.

Uh, no.  Doubt they cared or went to any games.  Probably felt the same way Cleveland fans did when Baltimore won it all.

 

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So you compare cities, so therefore, New York gets two teams, how is that fair ?

[Bengal Mania]

We're gonna have to wade thru all of this chit again just to determine who the winners of the contest are. Thanks a bunch!

 

Start your own post to circle jerk each other, for cryin' out loud.

 

The three best teams, based on Superbowls, of the modern NFL era are

the 49ers

the Cowboys

the Patriots

 

don't like any of 'em, but I can't deny it. You could make additional arguments for a couple others, but these are the teams that WON superbowls

 

The Bengals have been to more Superbowls than either the Ravens/Browns or the Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts, so bite me!

 

(Note to self: Don't tell others to take the argument elsewhere, and then join the fray! D'oh!)

[Bill Swerski]

2, with 1 (Stover) still remaining.

 

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I seem to remember Stover accounting for almost all of that team's offense for a month or so in 2000. One could argue that the Browns kicker that Modell stole from Cleveland played a pivotal role in getting the Ravens that Wild Card berth.

 

Hmmmmmmmmm. Let's follow Red's logic. You (Baltimore) loved this chick (Colts). You had a good relationship for a while, but, then in the night, she bails on you and loads her sh*t [some of which you helped her to buy] into a Mayflower truck. She moves to Indy to live with some new guy who has more $$$ that you have. She takes all the things you shared with her--except the memories of fall days and transistor radios. You start dating a new chick (Ravens)--but she isn't the old girl, is she...? Uh, nope.

 

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Yep, Big Red acts like a Big Crybaby when one even hints that the Colts have a right to talk about their history in Baltimore. Ironically, Modell did the exact same thing to Cleveland. The fact that Modell re-named the "Browns" to the "Ravens" changed nothing. He took Cleveland's employees, equipment, players... pretty much everything except for the stadium. For all practical purposes, the Baltimore Ravens are the old Cleveland Browns. The Indianapolis Colts are the old Baltimore Colts. The St. Louis Rams are the old Los Angeles Rams. The Oakland Raiders are the old Los Angeles Raiders. The Tennessee Titans are the old Houston Oilers. He can deny it all he wants, but that's the way it is.

 

A city does not own a team. An owner does. Thus, when an owner moves, he (or she) takes the hardware, the records, and oh yes, the Superbowls with him or her.

 

Exactly. The city didn't pay the players, the organization did.

 

Similarly, when an accountant working for a company in New York decides to leave and take a job with a firm in LA, that person's resume goes with him/her. It does not belong to the city of New York.

 

The Colts organization has as much a right to their history in Baltimore as the city of Baltimore and it's citizens do. It's a shared history.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Bill Swerski

[Big Red]

I seem to remember Stover accounting for almost all of that team's offense for a month or so in 2000.  One could argue that the Browns kicker that Modell stole from Cleveland played a pivotal role in getting the Ravens that Wild Card berth.

Yep, Big Red acts like a Big Crybaby when one even hints that the Colts have a right to talk about their history in Baltimore.  Ironically, Modell did the exact same thing to Cleveland.  The fact that Modell re-named the "Browns" to the "Ravens" changed nothing.  He took Cleveland's employees, equipment, players... pretty much everything except for the stadium.  For all practical purposes, the Baltimore Ravens are the old Cleveland Browns.  The Indianapolis Colts are the old Baltimore Colts.  The St. Louis Rams are the old Los Angeles Rams.  The Oakland Raiders are the old Los Angeles Raiders.  The Tennessee Titans are the old Houston Oilers.  He can deny it all he wants, but that's the way it is.

Exactly.  The city didn't pay the players, the organization did.

 

Similarly, when an accountant working for a company in New York decides to leave and take a job with a firm in LA, that person's resume goes with him/her.  It does not belong to the city of New York.

 

The Colts organization has as much a right to their history in Baltimore as the city of Baltimore and it's citizens do.  It's a shared history.

 

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Wow, I thought Swerski would have jumped in this one long ago.

 

Banks and Dilfer where our QBs. So yes, our Brownie kickers was (still is) a huge part of our offense. Tied to the old team by a kicker. In only 4 years all but two players where gone. Boy, we got a beauty of a team.

 

The Colts organization can talk about the Colts history. I laugh when Indy fans talk about their history as if it started before the Colts came to their town. I couldn't believe the Colts web page even claims the AAFC Colts, who where folded by the NFL (that resulted in a lawsuit) as part of their history. That is a totally different franchise with different colors, sharing only in name.

 

No kidding, the franchses are the same. I don't seem to recall hearing Spain spout off about Earl Cambell. I also don't see a big backlash when Brownies fans remember their glory days (long before the Steelers glory days, now that's a long time ago) even though technically, it's a different team.

 

You are just never going to convince any Baltimore fan that the Colts history before the move belongs anywhere but here. Also, you won't convince any Baltimore fan that anyone in Indy who likes to try to relate to that history just looks retarded. Yeah, I made a signing!!!!!!

 

Swerski, you left out the Cardinals fans. I guess if you never had any glory days to brag about, you get left out of the arguement. Maybe only Chicago fans can remember the Cards last great team.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Big Red

[Bill Swerski]

The Colts organization can talk about the Colts history.  I laugh when Indy fans talk about their history as if it started before the Colts came to their town...

 

...you won't convince any Baltimore fan that anyone in Indy who likes to try to relate to that history just looks retarded.

 

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I don't know many Indy fans who try to "relive" the glory days of the late '60s and early '70s in Baltimore. However, the Colts organization has every right to claim what their organization (not the city of Baltimore's) did in Baltimore as part of their franchise's history.

 

Fortunately, the "retarded" people in Indy don't really give a crap what the jealous, childish people in Baltimore think anyway.

 

You are just never going to convince any Baltimore fan that the Colts history before the move belongs anywhere but here.

 

So, I suppose that when my job relocates to Oregon in February, I'll have to erase my resume and start all over. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

I find it interesting that football fans in LA, who have had two teams stolen from them recently, aren't trying to get the Rams' recent Lombardi Trophy moved back to their city. After all the LOS ANGELES Rams were the ones who drafted Isaac Bruce, who lead the Rams in receiving in '99 and caught the game-winning TD in SB 34. I suppose they've learned to let it go. Perhaps you could learn something from them.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Bill Swerski

[Big Red]

I don't know many Indy fans who try to "relive" the glory days of the late '60s and early '70s in Baltimore.  However, the Colts organization has every right to claim what their organization (not the city of Baltimore's) did in Baltimore as part of their franchise's history.

 

Fortunately, the "retarded" people in Indy don't really give a crap what the jealous, childish people in Baltimore think anyway. 

 

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You don't know anyone who qualifies as what I call retarted, but then you use them to say they don't care about "jealous childish people in Baltimore"? Good arguement.

 

I'm not jealous about Indy. They have a team. If you don't know any fan who touts the Colts before the move, then I think we are in agreeement here. I can see the Colts listing their history as a franchise, especially since it does list Baltimore and is accurate.

 

What claim to the current Colts have to the AAFC/NFL Colts that where folded? The NFL awarded their assets to the New York Yanks, who themselves folded soon after. The expansion Texans where folded after their first year. That empty franchise was awarded to Baltimore (to settlt the suit the city had with the NFL) along with all the Texans assets (which where almost nothing). The Indy Colts have more of a claim to the Dallas Texans than they do to the AAFC/NFL Baltimore Colts. This is also on the Colts web site. This is just innaccurate.

 

So, I suppose that when my job relocates to Oregon in February, I'll have to erase my resume and start all over.  Thanks for setting me straight. 

 

I find it interesting that football fans in LA, who have had two teams stolen from them recently, aren't trying to get the Rams' recent Lombardi Trophy moved back to their city.  After all the LOS ANGELES Rams were the ones who drafted Isaac Bruce, who lead the Rams in receiving in '99 and caught the game-winning TD in SB 34.  I suppose they've learned to let it go.  Perhaps you could learn something from them.

 

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These two arguements are laughable. Should Indy win a title, that is Indy's title. Baltimore has no claim to it. Suggesting that LA has claim to the Rams 99 title is just as flawed. Ask the Brownie fans how long they celebrated when the Ravens won. Baltimore never wanted anything Indy did credited to them, only what the Colts did while in Baltimore.

 

So if your company moves to Oregon, does the former state owe all history and taxes paid to Oregon? No. Your company starts a new history and relationship in Oregon. The old state will most likely replace those jobs and have a great relationship with the new company that fills the vacant real estate, but they will also remember the presence the old company once had.

 

 

Also, there is no 'shared' history. There is a Colts history up to 1983 and one that began in 1984. How many Indy Colts fans where mad that John Elway went to the Broncos? I bet you never hear any negative comments about that. You say same team, but I bet the fans do not treat it as such. Again, the organization can relish their past as much as they want (especially Jim Irsay, I have no problem with him), however the fans and current players have zero ties. To all Baltimore fans, the only common element between Unitas and Manning is that they play with blue horseshoes on their helmet, and they are both great QBs. The first Raven that is considered a great QB (Jebus, still waiting for that) will draw more comparisons to Unitas from all fans, mark my words.

[Menudo]

Give up Swerski, he will tilt every argument the way he wants. You can't win. He still feels that the Ravens have accomplished more than the Steelers despite:

 

Steelers - 4 Super Bowl wins, Ravens 1

 

Steelers 12-6 Head to Head record against the Ravens

 

Steelers 5 Divsiion Titles, Ravens 1 since the Ravens joined the NFL

 

Facts don't seem to matter.

[NSab]

38

[Bill Swerski]

So if your company moves to Oregon, does the former state owe all history and taxes paid to Oregon?  No.  Your company starts a new history and relationship in Oregon.  The old state will most likely replace those jobs and have a great relationship with the new company that fills the vacant real estate, but they will also remember the presence the old company once had.

 

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So, if a company relocates to a different state, they have to "start a new history" by getting rid of all of their employees and clients? (Becuase that's what Modell did, right? ) And they can't claim any of their accomplishments from working in their former state? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

So, according to your argument, all 25 or so publications that my boss has generated while running her lab in Texas are no longer hers... simply because she's moving her lab to another state. The fact is that both her name AND that of the state of Texas are printed on the first page of each of them. The intellectual property is shared between her and the state (and the journal). Whenever she applies for a grant after the move, she'll justifiably include all of that work done in Texas on her CV.

 

How many Indy Colts fans where mad that John Elway went to the Broncos?

 

Certainly not me. Number 7 has always been one of my all-time faves.

 

Also, there is no 'shared' history. 

 

That's complete crap. Bob Irsay OWNED the Colts. The city of Baltimore did not. The state of Maryland did not. This isn't Communist China. The Colts are a privately-owned business. To say that there's no sense of "shared history" between the Colts organization and the city of Baltimore is ludicrous. Unitas and his teammates may have won a SB as part of Baltimiore's NFL franchise, but they were also Colts.

 

If you don't believe me, go look at the Rams and Raiders web sites. They completely disagree with you as well. Neither organization has "forgotten" what they've accomplished in their former locations, nor should they be expected to.

 

Have fun rooting for the former Cleveland Browns this Fall.

 

Give up Swerski, he will tilt every argument the way he wants.

 

Facts don't seem to matter.

 

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It's like trying to compromise with Yasser Arafat.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Bill Swerski

[yo mama]

It's like trying to compromise with Yasser Arafat.  

 

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Wow. That would be very difficult. You know, because he's dead, and all.

Edited August 19, 2005 by yo mama

[Outshined]

9

 

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Your a fantasy Football genius.