Rockerbraves Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Let's be fair here. Vick is not the best QB or the worse in the NFL. If a NFL QB re-draft were held today, Vick would likely fall around number 10. Not for his throwing or running ability or lack thereof and not for his ability to sell seats or his preceived cocky attitude, but for his overall talents as a football player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 What I wrote is a question of whether you have ever considered the possibility that the Falcons lost those games because of Vick & not despite Vick. Apparently that concept doesn't enter your thought patterns. When pushed further, I presented some statistics that are fairly damning of Vick in regard to big games, which would suggest strong evidence that he had a significant impact on the outcomes. For you to say the Falcons didn't have champion caliber teams and none of it was Vick's fault tells me that you do not have the ability to assign any blame for any loss to Vick. That being the case, there's really no point in discussing this. You're convinced he's a great QB, despite all of the comparative statistical evidence that indicates otherwise, of which I've presented a bit, and which you either deny or ignore. Your question / post / conclusion, is without merit BB. See Post #275. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Again it depends on what you want ... if you want to put butts in seats then you are getting a good return. If you want to win championships your investment is tanking. If they wanted to fill seats, they would have signed Moss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millerx Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 How about in '02 & '04. Vick's performance vs PHI in '02 that prevented ATL from going to the NFC Championship: 2002 PHI L,6-20 22 comp in 38 pass attempts 274 yds 0 TDs 2 INTs 6 rushes for 30 yds 0 TDs 1 fumble, 0 lost fumbles Vick accounted for 0 - count 'em - 0 TDs in a game where if ATL had scored 3 TDs in the game they would have won. Oh, and he had those two pesky INTs also. That superior Eagle pass D? #13 in the NFL. 2004 PHI L,10-27 11 comp in 24 attempts 136 yds passing 0 TDs 1 INT 4 rushes for 26 yds 0 TDs 3 fumbles, 2 lost fumbles Well, at least Vick only threw 1 INT in their effort to get to the Superbowl. Still, he accounted for 0 TDs again and amassed a whopping 136 yds passing and 162 total yds. Yep - it sure wasn't Vick's fault that ATL lost that game. This time that superior Eagle pass D had worked its way all the way up to #12 in the NFL. Oh, let's not overlook Vick's 3 fumbles either, 2 of which he lost. So what we have in two games vs PHI, one to get to the NFC Championship game, the other to get to the Superbowl, is exactly 0 TDs scored while throwing for 3 INTs, losing 2 fumbles, and barely a 53% completion percentage and a gigantic 6.6 ypa.. The rest of Vick's playoff history in '01, '03, & '05? Well, there isn't any... Now that's the mark of a big-time best-player-in-the-NFL QB, huh? There's your history lesson for today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 These QB stats, which are worse than Vicks stats in his playoff games, won last years Superbowl. Pittsburgh Passing C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT B. Roethlisberger 9/21 123 5.9 0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 These QB stats, which are worse than Vicks stats in his playoff games, won last years Superbowl. Pittsburgh Passing C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT B. Roethlisberger 9/21 123 5.9 0 2 He was also 21 of 29 passes for 275 yards, 2 TDs and ran for a third in the AFC Championship game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Gotta love that awesome Colts defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 (edited) These QB stats, which are worse than Vicks stats in his playoff games, won last years Superbowl. Pittsburgh Passing C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT B. Roethlisberger 9/21 123 5.9 0 2 Um, I never claimed that Roethlisberger was a great playoff QB... or an elite QB in general. He's been pretty much hit-or-miss throughout his brief career (sucked in the '04 playoffs, was great in the AFC playoffs last year, and sucked in the SB). Sorry, but BB made a valid point there. Edited October 26, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorsEdg Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 (edited) the way i see it,if i have done my math correctl,y is that Vick's Average over the past six years is 142.8 yards passing a game, and he has only two games that he passed for 300 or better does not sound good to me.check for yourself http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5448/g....uLYF?year=2006 Edited October 27, 2006 by RazorsEdg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 the way i see it,if i have done my math correctl,y is that Vick's Average over the past six years is 142.8 yards passing a game, and he has only two games that he passed for 300 or better does not sound good to me.check for yourself http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5448/g....uLYF?year=2006 Yet when he runs, it is hard to stop him from getting a first down. But we all know the only way a QB can score or get a first down is by throwing. But why would you expect Vick to have Bulger stats on a team that dominates by the run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Um, I never claimed that Roethlisberger was a great playoff QB... or an elite QB in general. He's been pretty much hit-or-miss throughout his brief career (sucked in the '04 playoffs, was great in the AFC playoffs last year, and sucked in the SB). Sorry, but BB made a valid point there. But Roth WAS great in the AFC Championship game last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Um, I never claimed that Roethlisberger was a great playoff QB... or an elite QB in general. He's been pretty much hit-or-miss throughout his brief career (sucked in the '04 playoffs, was great in the AFC playoffs last year, and sucked in the SB). Sorry, but BB made a valid point there. His post was showing Vick's poor QB stats in the two Atlanta playoff losses & laying the blame for those losses on Vick. I show a QB posting even WORSE stats, in the biggest playoff game that there is & yet the team that QB is on, won. I show that historically, in the last 20+ years, NO team has ever won a Championship with their D not ranking in at LEAST the Top 8 for points allowed (and there haven't been many with a D ranked that low). Atlanta's D ranked 14th in points allowed in 2004. But yeah...BB's post was valid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorsEdg Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Yet when he runs, it is hard to stop him from getting a first down. But we all know the only way a QB can score or get a first down is by throwing. But why would you expect Vick to have Bulger stats on a team that dominates by the run? All I'm saying is that, if you are going to be a good quarterback then you need to do more then run.A QB can not get it done with these kinds of numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorsEdg Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 And one more thing waterman how many times has he really converted on third and long .I think it is not as much as he could if he could throw the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 His post was showing Vick's poor QB stats in the two Atlanta playoff losses & laying the blame for those losses on Vick. I show a QB posting even WORSE stats, in the biggest playoff game that there is & yet the team that QB is on, won. I show that historically, in the last 20+ years, NO team has ever won a Championship with their D not ranking in at LEAST the Top 8 for points allowed (and there haven't been many with a D ranked that low). Atlanta's D ranked 14th in points allowed in 2004. But yeah...BB's post was valid And that proves what... that Roethlisberger had a better supporting cast around him than Vick? Sure, I'll buy that. I agree that you can't blame those two playoff losses completely on Vick. But he certaily didn't help them win in those games, either. He ain't no Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 And one more thing waterman how many times has he really converted on third and long .I think it is not as much as he could if he could throw the ball. I'm no waterman, nor do I play one on TV but.... Check the stats for ANY QB's completion% on 3rd & longs. I don't care who the QB is, how good the O'line is at pass blocking, or the talent of the WR's...ALL QB's completion% take a hit in that situation. I tell you what I love in the Vick discussions here at the Huddle. Whenever anyone points to how well Vick has done as far as the team winning, all I ever hear is that it's NOT because of Vick. It's the D, it's the running game, it's Crump, it's the ST play etc...etc...etc... Yet when the Falcons loose, suddenly it's due to Vick's play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Whenever anyone points to how well Vick has done as far as the team winning, all I ever hear is that it's NOT because of Vick. It's the D, it's the running game, it's Crump, it's the ST play etc...etc...etc... Yet when the Falcons loose, suddenly it's due to Vick's play It's more accurate to blame it on a weak passing game that often struggles to move the ball downfield. That includes not only Vick, but his WRs, the OC, the QBs coach, the WRs coach, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 I agree that you can't blame those two playoff losses completely on Vick. And thus BB's post isn't valid, since that was his point. Vick's performance vs PHI in '02 that prevented ATL from going to the NFC Championship: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 It's more accurate to blame it on a weak passing game that often struggles to move the ball downfield. That includes not only Vick, but his WRs, the OC, the QBs coach, the WRs coach, etc. Now you're getting it! But we still need to talk about which back is more talented, Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 But we still need to talk about which back is more talented, Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis. No way, dude. I actually need to get work done today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorsEdg Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 I'm no waterman, nor do I play one on TV but.... Check the stats for ANY QB's completion% on 3rd & longs. I don't care who the QB is, how good the O'line is at pass blocking, or the talent of the WR's...ALL QB's completion% take a hit in that situation. I tell you what I love in the Vick discussions here at the Huddle. Whenever anyone points to how well Vick has done as far as the team winning, all I ever hear is that it's NOT because of Vick. It's the D, it's the running game, it's Crump, it's the ST play etc...etc...etc... Yet when the Falcons loose, suddenly it's due to Vick's play Carson Palmer CIN 16 101.1 345 509 67.8 3836 239.8 7.5 32 12 19 105 5 2 Kelly Holcomb BUF 10 85.6 155 230 67.4 1509 150.9 6.6 10 8 17 140 12 5 Peyton Manning IND 16 104.1 305 453 67.3 3747 234.2 8.3 28 10 17 81 5 2 Marc Bulger STL 8 94.4 192 287 66.9 2297 287.1 8.0 14 9 26 188 5 2 Matt Hasselbeck SEA 16 98.2 294 449 65.5 3459 216.2 7.7 24 9 24 154 4 2 Drew Brees SDG 16 89.2 323 500 64.6 3576 223.5 7.2 24 15 27 223 8 5 Kurt Warner ARI 10 85.8 242 375 64.5 2713 271.3 7.2 11 9 23 158 9 5 Tom Brady NWE 16 92.3 334 530 63.0 4110 256.9 7.8 26 14 26 188 4 3 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 12 98.6 168 268 62.7 2385 198.8 8.9 17 9 23 129 2 1 Brad Johnson MIN 15 88.9 184 294 62.6 1885 125.7 6.4 12 4 23 134 5 3 Trent Green KAN 16 90.1 317 507 62.5 4014 250.9 7.9 17 10 32 204 8 4 Anthony Wright BAL 9 71.7 164 266 61.7 1582 175.8 5.9 6 9 19 147 5 1 Brett Favre GNB 16 70.9 372 607 61.3 3881 242.6 6.4 20 29 24 170 10 7 Steve McNair TEN 14 82.4 292 476 61.3 3161 225.8 6.6 16 11 20 134 6 4 Chris Simms TAM 11 81.4 191 313 61.0 2035 185.0 6.5 10 7 29 205 6 4 Jake Plummer DEN 16 90.2 277 456 60.7 3366 210.4 7.4 18 7 22 135 4 2 David Carr HOU 16 77.2 256 423 60.5 2488 155.5 5.9 14 11 68 424 17 6 Josh McCown ARI 9 74.9 163 270 60.4 1836 204.0 6.8 9 11 18 101 5 3 Jake Delhomme CAR 16 88.1 262 435 60.2 3421 213.8 7.9 24 16 28 214 12 6 Drew Bledsoe DAL 16 83.7 300 499 60.1 3639 227.4 7.3 23 17 49 295 17 8 Trent Dilfer CLE 11 76.9 199 333 59.8 2321 211.0 7.0 11 12 23 139 9 7 Donovan McNabb PHI 9 85.0 211 357 59.1 2507 278.6 7.0 16 9 19 112 8 3 Kyle Boller BAL 9 71.8 171 293 58.4 1799 199.9 6.1 11 12 23 146 7 2 Byron Leftwich JAC 11 89.3 175 302 57.9 2123 193.0 7.0 15 5 23 110 7 3 Mark Brunell WAS 16 85.9 262 454 57.7 3050 190.6 6.7 23 10 27 213 10 6 Joey Harrington DET 12 72.0 188 330 57.0 2021 168.4 6.1 12 12 24 136 7 4 Brooks Bollinger NYJ 11 72.9 150 266 56.4 1558 141.6 5.9 7 6 32 193 3 1 Aaron Brooks NOR 13 70.0 240 431 55.7 2882 221.7 6.7 13 17 33 202 4 2 Michael Vick ATL 15 73.1 214 387 55.3 2412 160.8 6.2 15 13 33 201 11 5 Kerry Collins OAK 15 77.3 302 565 53.5 3759 250.6 6.7 20 12 39 261 13 4 Eli Manning NYG 16 75.9 294 557 52.8 3762 235.1 6.8 24 17 28 184 9 2 Last updated through games completed on Oct 23, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 No way, dude. I actually need to get work done today. Work? Priorities man, priorities. We're cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junebugz Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Carson Palmer CIN 16 101.1 345 509 67.8 3836 239.8 7.5 32 12 19 105 5 2 Kelly Holcomb BUF 10 85.6 155 230 67.4 1509 150.9 6.6 10 8 17 140 12 5 Peyton Manning IND 16 104.1 305 453 67.3 3747 234.2 8.3 28 10 17 81 5 2 Marc Bulger STL 8 94.4 192 287 66.9 2297 287.1 8.0 14 9 26 188 5 2 Matt Hasselbeck SEA 16 98.2 294 449 65.5 3459 216.2 7.7 24 9 24 154 4 2 Drew Brees SDG 16 89.2 323 500 64.6 3576 223.5 7.2 24 15 27 223 8 5 Kurt Warner ARI 10 85.8 242 375 64.5 2713 271.3 7.2 11 9 23 158 9 5 Tom Brady NWE 16 92.3 334 530 63.0 4110 256.9 7.8 26 14 26 188 4 3 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 12 98.6 168 268 62.7 2385 198.8 8.9 17 9 23 129 2 1 Brad Johnson MIN 15 88.9 184 294 62.6 1885 125.7 6.4 12 4 23 134 5 3 Trent Green KAN 16 90.1 317 507 62.5 4014 250.9 7.9 17 10 32 204 8 4 Anthony Wright BAL 9 71.7 164 266 61.7 1582 175.8 5.9 6 9 19 147 5 1 Brett Favre GNB 16 70.9 372 607 61.3 3881 242.6 6.4 20 29 24 170 10 7 Steve McNair TEN 14 82.4 292 476 61.3 3161 225.8 6.6 16 11 20 134 6 4 Chris Simms TAM 11 81.4 191 313 61.0 2035 185.0 6.5 10 7 29 205 6 4 Jake Plummer DEN 16 90.2 277 456 60.7 3366 210.4 7.4 18 7 22 135 4 2 David Carr HOU 16 77.2 256 423 60.5 2488 155.5 5.9 14 11 68 424 17 6 Josh McCown ARI 9 74.9 163 270 60.4 1836 204.0 6.8 9 11 18 101 5 3 Jake Delhomme CAR 16 88.1 262 435 60.2 3421 213.8 7.9 24 16 28 214 12 6 Drew Bledsoe DAL 16 83.7 300 499 60.1 3639 227.4 7.3 23 17 49 295 17 8 Trent Dilfer CLE 11 76.9 199 333 59.8 2321 211.0 7.0 11 12 23 139 9 7 Donovan McNabb PHI 9 85.0 211 357 59.1 2507 278.6 7.0 16 9 19 112 8 3 Kyle Boller BAL 9 71.8 171 293 58.4 1799 199.9 6.1 11 12 23 146 7 2 Byron Leftwich JAC 11 89.3 175 302 57.9 2123 193.0 7.0 15 5 23 110 7 3 Mark Brunell WAS 16 85.9 262 454 57.7 3050 190.6 6.7 23 10 27 213 10 6 Joey Harrington DET 12 72.0 188 330 57.0 2021 168.4 6.1 12 12 24 136 7 4 Brooks Bollinger NYJ 11 72.9 150 266 56.4 1558 141.6 5.9 7 6 32 193 3 1 Aaron Brooks NOR 13 70.0 240 431 55.7 2882 221.7 6.7 13 17 33 202 4 2 Michael Vick ATL 15 73.1 214 387 55.3 2412 160.8 6.2 15 13 33 201 11 5 Kerry Collins OAK 15 77.3 302 565 53.5 3759 250.6 6.7 20 12 39 261 13 4 Eli Manning NYG 16 75.9 294 557 52.8 3762 235.1 6.8 24 17 28 184 9 2 Last updated through games completed on Oct 23, 2006 Tough to make heads or tails of your post in the above format. But a few 2006 examples so you can understand what I was saying; McNabb 2006 overall Completion % = 59.3 McNabb 2006 overall Completion % on 3rd downs = 53.8 Palmer 2006 overall Completion % = 62.2 Palmer 2006 overall Completion % on 3rd downs = 54.1 Favre 2006 overall Completion % = 56.3 Favre 2006 overall Completion % on 3rd downs = 50.0 Brady 2006 overall Completion % = 56.1 Brady 2006 overall Completion % on 3rd downs = 48.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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