How do you play this hand?

[Grits and Shins]

In the NL tournament I got to the top 2 and split the payout with the other guy so we could start the cash game. .5/1 limit game minimum bid of $1 pre-flop and on the flop, minimum $2 on the turn and river.

 

So I did well in the tournament and had been having a rough go in the cash game largely due to a long run of horrible cards or 2nd best hands.

 

Fairly late in the evening, I probably have half of my original stake in the cash game left ... player immediately to my right and his right are doing very well, I'm the SB.

 

UTG limps, folds around to me.

 

I'm holding pocket kings, clearly I have to raise and I do, BB calls, limper calls.

 

Flop 2-2-6.

 

I bet, player on my left raises, limper folds.

 

What do you do?

 

 

 

 

[EDIT]

You are holding K-K

 

FLOP: 2-2-6

TURN: Q

RIVER: 2

 

Cards have sucked all night, how hard to you push here? You can only lose to 4 hands:

1) 2-x

2) A-A

3) Q-Q

4) 6-6

Edited March 5, 2007 by Grits and Shins

[TimC]

Probably go broke when he flips over pocket 6's.

[Perchoutofwater]

It would depend on how much of my chip stack is already in the pot. I'd probably fold it if it wouldn't cripple me too much.

[Grits and Shins]

It would depend on how much of my chip stack is already in the pot. I'd probably fold it if it wouldn't cripple me too much.

 

 

Remember it is limit poker.

[broncosn05]

Without any read on the guy I'd probably stay in and call to see the turn.

[Grits and Shins]

Without any read on the guy I'd probably stay in and call to see the turn.

 

 

Actually I don't believe there is any reason NOT to call here in a limit game.

 

The question will be how hard to push after the turn and river.

[detlef]

It would depend on how much of my chip stack is already in the pot.

 

Why should that have any bearing what-so-ever? That's not your money anymore.

 

As to the question, I think you call. Re-raising is dangerous in case he really does have a 2 or pocket 6s 'cause he can raise back and you're sort of screwed. Calling just determines if he's just trying to buy the pot and doesn't cost too much.

[chiefjay]

I think you push as hard as you can to see where you stand. I think he has a smaller pair then yours and possibly has nothing and just trying to push you around. Push here imo.

[Azazello1313]

I think you push as hard as you can to see where you stand. I think he has a smaller pair then yours and possibly has nothing and just trying to push you around. Push here imo.

 

 

i agree and then think about folding to the huge re-raise if/when that comes.

[Grits and Shins]

It might be worth mentioning that my opponent in this case is a very loose player and very often chases the river in a limit game.

[TimC]

It might be worth mentioning that my opponent in this case is a very loose player and very often chases the river in a limit game.

 

 

Even more reason to push. He's a fish. Sure, he'll catch the stray hand (like he may have in this case), but overall I'm breaking someone like this with pocket K's.

 

Edit: Playing poker scared to lose is the quickest way to not maximize your profits. You have to take the bad (if he had pocket 6's in this case) knowing that you'll come out ahead against someone the loves to chase to the river in the long run. Read Doyle's Super System.

Edited March 5, 2007 by TimC

[Grits and Shins]

Even more reason to push. He's a fish. Sure, he'll catch the stray hand (like he may have in this case), but overall I'm breaking someone like this with pocket K's.

 

Edit: Playing poker scared to lose is the quickest way to not maximize your profits. You have to take the bad (if he had pocket 6's in this case) knowing that you'll come out ahead against someone the loves to chase to the river in the long run. Read Doyle's Super System.

 

 

In the preceeding NL tournament here was a hand he and I played in:

 

I'm on the button, blinds are at the third tier raising every 15 minutes, my stack is a little over the average his stack is a little under the average.

 

UTG limps in, everybody folds to me, I raise to a little over 3x BB, he calls.

 

Flop Qh-Jh-10c ... I have the nuts with A-K.

 

I bet 8x BB, he goes all in ... I call.

 

He has A-Q.

 

He got lucky and sucked out on the river with a K to chop the pot.

[irish]

Press 'em how many times is a guy going to get lucky. Don't let him beat you with a bluff.

[TimC]

In a tourney, you may slow down to avoid getting knocked out if you feel you're beat, but in a cash game I'm gonna press this and take my medicine if I'm beat. He could easily have pocket Q's as Aces (or hit a set, boat on the flop).

 

I know I'm gonna come out ahead long-term if he's a calling station despite the fact he'll get lucky a few hands. Unless I have a great read on him, I'm pushing with kings. Having a great read on a calling station is difficult though.

 

I tend not to pick individual hands apart if my play is correct. Scott Fishman had an article about this in this month's (or last month's?) CardPlayer magazine.

[broncosn05]

From the turn on I would've kept betting to the max.

[Furd]

Reraise.

 

Calling in that situation accomplishes nothing. Maybe he was just taking a stab at the pot. Not many players will call or reraise you if they have nothing.

 

If he calls, I'm going to try to check it all the way down. If he reraises you, you either call and check it down or fold. It depends on your read of the other player.

 

I'm not going to push it any more.

[spain]

Reraise.

 

Calling in that situation accomplishes nothing. Maybe he was just taking a stab at the pot. Not many players will call or reraise you if they have nothing.

 

If he calls, I'm going to try to check it all the way down. If he reraises you, you either call and check it down or fold. It depends on your read of the other player.

 

I'm not going to push it any more.

 

+1. You have to re-raise. Chances are that you are way ahead in the hand. He may have thought you were simply making a continuation bet after the flop and he was going to test you. If you re-raise, he now knows you arent going away. So, if he has nothing he probably lays it down right there. If re-raises you, then you might be in trouble.

 

Bottom line, why call when you can raise in this spot?

[Grits and Shins]

+1. You have to re-raise. Chances are that you are way ahead in the hand. He may have thought you were simply making a continuation bet after the flop and he was going to test you. If you re-raise, he now knows you arent going away. So, if he has nothing he probably lays it down right there. If re-raises you, then you might be in trouble.

 

Bottom line, why call when you can raise in this spot?

 

 

Oh I re-raised alright, every chance I got .. including after the turn and after the river.

[spain]

Oh I re-raised alright, every chance I got .. including after the turn and after the river.

 

So, you bet, he raised, you re-raised. Then did he call or re-raise? If he called, then he is at least slowing down some. Since you raised pre-flop, he probably hasnt put you on a 6 or a 2. He now knows you probably have an over pair or 2 overcards to the board. So, lets hear what happened after you re-raised him...

[Grits and Shins]

So, you bet, he raised, you re-raised. Then did he call or re-raise? If he called, then he is at least slowing down some. Since you raised pre-flop, he probably hasnt put you on a 6 or a 2. He now knows you probably have an over pair or 2 overcards to the board. So, lets hear what happened after you re-raised him...

 

 

Remember this is limit poker

 

Blinds are .5/1

 

Pre-flop UTG calls $1

I raise to $2

BB calls $2

Limper calls $2

 

Flop 2-2-6

 

I bet $1, he raises to $2 (limper folds), I re-raise to $3, he calls

 

Turn Q

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

Turn 2

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

So I was pushing all the way ...

[Azazello1313]

Oh I re-raised alright, every chance I got .. including after the turn and after the river.

 

 

this may be where you went wrong. if he's calling your re-raise after the flop, and raising himself every chance he gets, at some point a smart player is going to get away from those kings. that is something that happens to chump card players like us all the time....we convince ourselves we've got somebody beat early in the hand and fail to reassess the hand every time we get a new piece of evidence.

 

edit:

Flop 2-2-6

 

I bet $1, he raises to $2 (limper folds), I re-raise to $3, he calls

 

Turn Q

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

Turn 2

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

So I was pushing all the way ...

 

IMO the moves i bolded were probably bad ones.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Azazello1313

[Furd]

So I was pushing all the way ...

 

 

 

Why? What hand did you put him on?

[Grits and Shins]

Why? What hand did you put him on?

 

 

I put him on 2 pair, then a smaller boat on the river ... so something like A-6 ... or with a pocket pair like Js.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Grits and Shins

[Big Country]

Remember this is limit poker

 

Blinds are .5/1

 

Pre-flop UTG calls $1

I raise to $2

BB calls $2

Limper calls $2

 

Flop 2-2-6

 

I bet $1, he raises to $2 (limper folds), I re-raise to $3, he calls

 

Turn Q

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

Turn 2

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

So I was pushing all the way ...

 

 

After his reraise to $8 on the turn, I am check calling this hand down. You are far less likely to be up against a bluff putting in the 4th bet on the turn in limit poker, as at this point you have hugh pot odds to at least call down, so you know he has a hand. Now, given your range of hands that he has that could beat you, plus the hands he may play like this that you beat, and not knowing anything about him like if he will raise and reraise a raiser on a bluff or a draw like this, you have to give him credit for a strong hand, although as he only limped and did not reraise, you likely woudn't put him on a big pair, meaning, the likelihood of 66 and 2-x go up in comparison to those bigger hands that you beat, albeit hands like 77-99 are still legitimate possibilities, though I would tend to doubt that after the 4th bet when the Q hits (again, note that having never played with him, there is very limited information to go on.)

 

All information indicates he has a big hand. You either do as I would and check call the river after he puts in the 4th bet on the turn, or you do as you did, which is higher risk but bigger payoff if your hand is good. The one thing that is obvious is that you can't fold your hand as you are getting hugh pot odds.

[spain]

Remember this is limit poker

 

Blinds are .5/1

 

Pre-flop UTG calls $1

I raise to $2

BB calls $2

Limper calls $2

 

Flop 2-2-6

 

I bet $1, he raises to $2 (limper folds), I re-raise to $3, he calls

 

Turn Q

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

Turn 2

 

I bet $2, he raises to $4, I re-raise to $6, he re-raises to $8 I re-raise to $10, he calls

 

So I was pushing all the way ...

 

Tell me why you played the hand this way. When you make a bet, you should be looking to gain information. When he raises you every single friggin time you bet, you should be picking up a signal that perhaps he actually has a hand. In that case, you probably want to slow down and try to keep the pot small. Maybe you dont want to get away from your Cowboys, but just smooth call his raises to limit the size of your loss in the event he actually does have a hand. You just keep hard chargin against this maniac like you dont think he would play a 2 or 66 against a pre-flop raise. You already said he was looser than cream corn so he could have anything including the hands that beat you. Why not just smooth call his raises on the turn and river?