I Like Soup Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 True dat - like I said, that makes it even more impressive. Although the pitchers he faced weren't juiced either, so its one of those 'comparing different era' problems. Maybe there were other kinds of cheating back then too. So all we have is the # itself, 756 - is it impressive or not? How many guys of any era have been able to sustain that kind of slugging production over that many years? Very few, and I submit that unless a full on Inquisition-type investigation into all players past, present and future can cleary put them all into one category or another, you shouldn't villify one guy over others for alleged cheating. It appears that McGwire, Sosa and Bonds all probably used them - and they're in the spotlight because of their success. What about all those that used them that couldn't rise to the same level, despite the cheating? I say those 3 guys are still pretty unique athletes then, like Ruth clearly was in his day. That is all.... I hear ya. I guess you can compare a player with the contemporaries of their respective day to put it in to perspective. And Swerski nailed it...Ruth was hitting more home runs than entire teams were...I think for that matter, he hit more than one of the leagues. Point is, Ruth was far and away better than his peers, whereas Bonds only led the league in home runs...what?...once? it's kinda funny that a guy like gaylord perry is in the HOF, over NO ONE's objection, and cheating is what he was famous for, part of his whole persona. No kidding, with all of this talk, I was thinking of the pitchers that used to scuff the ball with sandpaper, vaseline, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 757 just landed in McCovey cove. I think there is a decent shot Bonds gets to 800 (8 more homers this year, 35 next year would put him at that number.) If he catches on as a DH somewhere, it could go even higher. Dude still sports an OBP of .497 which is stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 757 just landed in McCovey cove. I think there is a decent shot Bonds gets to 800 (8 more homers this year, 35 next year would put him at that number.) If he catches on as a DH somewhere, it could go even higher. Dude still sports an OBP of .497 which is stupid. i've been watching bonds for a long time....when i was playing baseball in high school, it's when bonds was in his last years with pittsburgh, and it's when i watched and studied so much baseball. bonds had such a perfect swing, even then when he was relatively scrawny, he had sickening bat speed, better than anyone in the majors, and yet his swing was so compact, no wasted motion. since then he's just honed his craft. i doubt his bat speed was any higher when he jacked 73 dingers than it was when he was hitting 35 a year, he just evolved as a hitter with his pitch selection (he probably has the best eye EVER) and the expansion of his power zones. it started happening as soon as he got to san fran, long before he is ever rumored to have begun with the steroids. when he started with the roids....they didn't make him the deadly hitter he is, i think they really just prolonged his physical peak. just that extra little bit of strength turned what probably would have been a 50-60 HR season into a 73 HR season. how many HRs have they added to his overall total? i dunno, objectively i would have to say it's more than 30, less than 100. no doubt it soils some of the records to a degree. but my appreciation for his enormous skill still won't let me see him as anything other than the greatest hitter i've ever seen. and here he is....what, 43 years old? playing outfield every day in the NL, being drug tested regularly, and he is STILL one of the 2 or 3 most feared hitters in baseball, easily. can you say that about hank aaron or willie mays at that age? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 (edited) ...... in addition to az ...... he became a monster and started getting a tremendous amount of bb's. would have gotten X amount more ab's per season and imo reach those same hr #'s (with a lower obp and lower ba). big questions are: was what he used illegal? how often/how much did he use? what would be the difference between him doing "standard" strength training vs illegal performance enhancers (in terms of results)? using or not, he still is right around this number of hr's Edited August 9, 2007 by Bier Meister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 ...... in addition to az ...... he became a monster and started getting a tremendous amount of bb's. would have gotten X amount more ab's per season and imo reach those same hr #'s (with a lower obp and lower ba). big questions are: was what he used illegal? how often/how much did he use? what would be the difference between him doing "standard" strength training vs illegal performance enhancers (in terms of results)? using or not, he still is right around this number of hr's well, the thing i always think of....where would his overall numbers be if he went to the AL after he turned 35, where he could DH all or most of the time? he woulda missed a LOT less games due to injury and/or rest, and i am almost certain that would account for more home runs in his total than any illicit drugs he's used. also, what if he played for a team that could put someone better than pedro feliz or JT snow behind him in the order? what if he didn't play so many years in candlestick, a pitcher's park? a lot of factors in bonds' career that worked AGAINST him breaking a record like this that people never seem to make mention of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goopster24 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 (edited) Gehrig and Ripken combined played in more than 2000 games more than Bonds has. And Bonds has almost as many walks as both of them combined. He has 4 more MVP's then the next most. The guy is flat out amazing. Is he a jerk? Probably, but he is crazy good. If you don't think he deserves to be in the HOF right now, you are sadly mistaken, not even a question. Edited August 9, 2007 by Goopster24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goopster24 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Baseball has been a joke since they canceled the World Series. Can this sport finally just go away. It's boring, it cheats and no one cares anymore. Yup, that's why they are going to be breaking attendance records this year. Yup... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Yup, that's why they are going to be breaking attendance records this year. Yup... I'd rather watch you roll yer eyes than 9 innings on any baseball game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 ...... in addition to az ...... he became a monster and started getting a tremendous amount of bb's. would have gotten X amount more ab's per season and imo reach those same hr #'s (with a lower obp and lower ba). I think that logic is flawed as you don't apply it to the Babe's walk total or the fact he started his career as a pitcher. well, the thing i always think of....where would his overall numbers be if he went to the AL after he turned 35, where he could DH all or most of the time? he woulda missed a LOT less games due to injury and/or rest, and i am almost certain that would account for more home runs in his total than any illicit drugs he's used. also, what if he played for a team that could put someone better than pedro feliz or JT snow behind him in the order? what if he didn't play so many years in candlestick, a pitcher's park? a lot of factors in bonds' career that worked AGAINST him breaking a record like this that people never seem to make mention of. Well, now I think you are getting in to the minutiae...getting lost in the weeds so to speak. Weren't all baseball parks back in the day pitcher's parks? The mound was higher, also. You could argue that Jimmie Foxx would have been the greatest home run hitter since he reached 500 the quickest until ARod just did, but then again, there is the Babe argument. I don't think anyone would argue that Bond's numbers aren't impressive. It is the simple fact that at an age when baseball's greatest players show a decline in overall ability, Bond's is the lone exception in performing better as he got older. That is telling, to me. The woulda, coulda, shoulda arguments are fun, but they don't really mean much since it doesn't add to a particular players totals and take the real life stats out of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I think that logic is flawed as you don't apply it to the Babe's walk total or the fact he started his career as a pitcher. not flawed. babe's numbers would have been greater with more at bats as well Well, now I think you are getting in to the minutiae...getting lost in the weeds so to speak. Weren't all baseball parks back in the day pitcher's parks? The mound was higher, also. You could argue that Jimmie Foxx would have been the greatest home run hitter since he reached 500 the quickest until ARod just did, but then again, there is the Babe argument. I don't think anyone would argue that Bond's numbers aren't impressive. It is the simple fact that at an age when baseball's greatest players show a decline in overall ability, Bond's is the lone exception in performing better as he got older. That is telling, to me. The woulda, coulda, shoulda arguments are fun, but they don't really mean much since it doesn't add to a particular players totals and take the real life stats out of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 well, the thing i always think of....where would his overall numbers be if he went to the AL after he turned 35, where he could DH all or most of the time? he woulda missed a LOT less games due to injury and/or rest, and i am almost certain that would account for more home runs in his total than any illicit drugs he's used. also, what if he played for a team that could put someone better than pedro feliz or JT snow behind him in the order? what if he didn't play so many years in candlestick, a pitcher's park? a lot of factors in bonds' career that worked AGAINST him breaking a record like this that people never seem to make mention of. i agree..... we've had this chat once or twice :brew; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNasty Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I'd rather watch you roll yer eyes than 9 innings on any baseball game. truth. and I'd rather watch you watch him roll his eyes, if sleepball was the only thing on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I don't think anyone would argue that Bond's numbers aren't impressive. It is the simple fact that at an age when baseball's greatest players show a decline in overall ability, Bond's is the lone exception in performing better as he got older. That is telling, to me. so how do you explain the fact that he is still, at 43, one of the most feared hitters in the game? is he still juicing, despite drug testing and the fact that every reporter in the country is up his ass with a microscope? MLB leaders in 2007 HR per AB: .0919 - Ryan Howard (age 27, 6'4", 252 lbs) .0865 - Alex Rodriguez (age 32) .0855 - Barry Bonds (age 43) ahead of prince fielder, adam dunn, pujols, miguel cabrera, and everyone else. oh and guess who leads ALL of baseball in OPS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 It is the simple fact that at an age when baseball's greatest players show a decline in overall ability, Bond's is the lone exception in performing better as he got older. That is telling, to me But we also live in a time with scientifically dialed in nutrition, where middle age, is litterally getting older. Bonds' regimen -and others for that matter- has been very strict for quite some time. Then there's also the Nolan Ryan Factor where some are simply gifted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Did Nolan Ryan's shoe size go up by 3 sizes after 30 as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goopster24 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I'd rather watch you roll yer eyes than 9 innings on any baseball game. That's fine and quite flattering but to say no one cares is flat out wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Did Nolan Ryan's shoe size go up by 3 sizes after 30 as well? one norwegian peener enlarger belonging to one nolan ryan. i swear baby! it's not my bag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Bonds is without a doubt the greatest baseball player I have seen in my lifetime and one of the greatest all time. He may be a prick off the field but as a player I haven't seen anyone better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 (edited) Bonds was on pace to be in HOF easily , hit a ton of home runs and be one of the greatest players in the game ever , without having to Juice or be suspected of juicing ...but since he juiced ( believing he did ) , the argument goes out the window ..he cheated , and the record is tainted as is his legacy and no matter how great he was ) pre controversy ), no one will never know where he would have ended up without cheating ..one thing for surer he certainly would not have ended up at 757 hr's and counting Edited August 10, 2007 by isleseeya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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