Should we leave Iraq?

[Randall]

This isn't meant to be political but to discuss policies.

 

I grew up during the Vietnam police action(not a declared war).

 

In 1968 Nixon was elected to end the war but didn't. Instead he started a program called Vietnamization where we would train them to win the war, we'd pull out and leave certain advisors. Those we trained really never did well. Nixon's refusal to pull out resulted in over 20,000 soldier deaths and really didn't help the outcome.

 

It really reminds me of Iraq.

 

Now as I see Iraq there are a lot of groups vying for power and control. It's a lot more than Suni VS Shia VS Al Qaeda VS whatever.

 

There are warlords, militia like AlS adr's and smaller ones that are protecting neighborhoods and stockpiling weapons for when we leave(if we leave).

 

We have been training these guys for over 3 years. In the recent fight 1000 deserted and we had to send aircover and troops because the Iraqi's couldn't defeat Al Sadr's militia(not exactly a state of the art unit).

 

We are paying many of these groups to provide security.

 

2 days ago in the Senate hearings Crocker was asked since the Iraqi economy is doing well, has a surplus can we have future rebuilding expenses become a loan. He hedged and hawed and it was obvious that wouldn't fly. They don't seem to want us there and building this militia seems just like what Nixon did to save face.

 

 

My question is this-

 

Since the Iraqis aren't coming up with politcal solutions is it worth to lose a few more thousand excellent soldiers in a war that won't be better when we leave?

 

If we leave in 2 years and they battle it out for power is it worth the effort?

 

If the decision were mine I would do what Murtha has suggested and move troops out of the city set up refugee areas and let the sides battle it out.

 

Give them time to come up a solution but if they can't or won't do it contain the fighting and let them settle their civil war themselves.

 

Another option would be Joe Biden's plan to have local control and a loose federal government that settles certain disputes.

 

I don't want anyone to die if this isn't going to result in a political solution.

 

Any other ideas. Hey I'm open to whatever works.

 

Maybe when we went in we should have paid everyone in the country. We'll pay you a weekly paycheck but you can't bomb or steal anything. Shlt have them sweep streets.

[dmarc117]

my only question is/was.....

 

didnt these military planners/pentagon plan for a possible guerrilla war back in the pre war stages? how come they didnt see this coming??

[Savage Beatings]

The Iraqi's don't seem to be too motivated to start taking care of themselves... I doubt we will ever fully leave Iraq, but maybe if we start pulling out a good number of our boys, they might get the message that its time to step up. I don't know... very tough call.

[TheShiznit]

The Iraqi's don't seem to be too motivated to start taking care of themselves... I doubt we will ever fully leave Iraq, but maybe if we start pulling out a good number of our boys, they might get the message that its time to step up. I don't know... very tough call.

[Grits and Shins]

Personally I see no benefit in maintaining a presence. Presumably we are bring stability to the region ... but I just don't see it as being all that stable. And to achieve said "stability" is costing American lives (not to mention American dollars that could be used else where). It seems that the only constant that our presence in that region has achieved is a universal hate.

 

Get out ... get out now.

[darin3]

This isn't meant to be political but to discuss policies.

[The Holy Roller]

I left Vietnam in January '73 and was glad to leave. But in my gut I knew even as an eighteen-year-old that the treasure and lives America spent there were wasted. I feel the same now about Iraq.

 

 

Pssst. Follow the money.

[H8tank]

Personally I see no benefit in maintaining a presence.

 

If we leave, Iran moves in and takes over, al queda has a permanent base of operations.

 

Oil will be $200/barrel, meaning $8/gallon gasoline, kuweit can be taken over again, goodbye isreal.... lots of new places to continue irans very aggressive nuke campaign, which is pretty much inevitable anyway.

 

The list goes on and on. I can think of many, many reasons not to surrender and give up on iraq, but hey, what do I know.

 

Obama himself said iraq is the front line of thier battle, can you acknowledge that it is?

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

 

this could get good.....

[AtomicCEO]

I agree with H8Tank.

 

Invading Iraq, a country who's leadership was at odds with both Iran and Al Qaeda, was an incredibly poor strategic idea.

 

The people who were against it deserve to be congratulated and elected, and the people who were for it despite it being such a blatantly stupid idea should be ridiculed and ousted from office.

[Grits and Shins]

I agree with H8Tank.

 

Invading Iraq, a country who's leadership was at odds with both Iran and Al Qaeda, was an incredibly poor strategic idea.

 

The people who were against it deserve to be congratulated and elected, and the people who were for it despite it being such a blatantly stupid idea should be ridiculed and ousted from office.

 

I don't think we are debating about whether or not it was good or poor strategically to invade Iraq ... rather we are discussing whether or not occupation should cease. Two different things.

[untateve]

If we leave, Iran moves in and takes over, al queda has a permanent base of operations.

 

Oil will be $200/barrel, meaning $8/gallon gasoline, kuweit can be taken over again, goodbye isreal.... lots of new places to continue irans very aggressive nuke campaign, which is pretty much inevitable anyway.

 

The list goes on and on. I can think of many, many reasons not to surrender and give up on iraq, but hey, what do I know.

 

Obama himself said iraq is the front line of thier battle, can you acknowledge that it is?

 

You know, if oil went to $200 a barrell, we might take some of that money we're spending in Iraq and make a real effort to find alternative energy.

 

If Iran's nuke campaign is inevitable, why bring it up as a reason to stay in Iraq?

 

I believe that the only way you say goodbye to Israel is if you say goodbye to the middle east. No way Israel goes quietly into that good night.

[westvirginia]

You know, if oil went to $200 a barrell, we might take some of that money we're spending in Iraq and make a real effort to find alternative energy.

 

If Iran's nuke campaign is inevitable, why bring it up as a reason to stay in Iraq?

 

I believe that the only way you say goodbye to Israel is if you say goodbye to the middle east. No way Israel goes quietly into that good night.

 

I :heart: cuntateve...

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you just kept the gov't out of energy all together, we would have had solar/nuclear/cowflatulence power being widespread by now.

 

The second statement is self explanatory, and Israel will leave that desert a smoking glass parking lot before they let the Arabs or Persians take their country.

[Chargerz]

Personally I see no benefit in maintaining a presence. Presumably we are bring stability to the region ... but I just don't see it as being all that stable. And to achieve said "stability" is costing American lives (not to mention American dollars that could be used else where). It seems that the only constant that our presence in that region has achieved is a universal hate.

 

Get out ... get out now.

+1

[Randall]

Some comedians say this is the middle east. You have to horse trade. You have to haggle They don't do anything until you start leaving.

[westvirginia]

No they don't. In summer when we were debating sending more troops so they could get space to make agreements they wanted to take a 2 month vacation. Our troops must have been saying what are we dying for?

Some comedians say this is the middle east. You have to horse trade. You have to haggle They don't do anything until you start leaving.

 

Dude, Atlanta is a HUGH military town, and every one of the soldiers and airmen I talk to that's been over there WANTS to go back. But typically, soldiers love to fight, failing that, they love to train. Though I'm mostly in agreement it's time to go (whether we should have even been there in the first place) don't let your uber-liberalism apply to soldiers. From my experience 90% of them disagree with you on this issue and with respect to politics in general.

[westvirginia]

Some comedians say this is the middle east. You have to horse trade. You have to haggle They don't do anything until you start leaving.

 

Caught your post before you edited...

[Randall]

Dude, Atlanta is a HUGH military town, and every one of the soldiers and airmen I talk to that's been over there WANTS to go back. But typically, soldiers love to fight, failing that, they love to train. Though I'm mostly in agreement it's time to go (whether we should have even been there in the first place) don't let your uber-liberalism apply to soldiers. From my experience 90% of them disagree with you on this issue and with respect to politics in general.

 

 

The soldiers have done a great job. They won a long time ago.

 

What more can they do? They can't force the leaders over there work out agreements unless they're willing to do it. It's like forcing someone to quit drinking. They have to do it. They can't do it for them.

 

Maybe threatening to leave won't help. I just don't want to watch them die for 2 years if it won't make much if a difference. What more can those soldiers do?

 

We all want them to succeed and come home safe. The question is how?

[Randall]

I left Vietnam in January '73 and was glad to leave. But in my gut I knew even as an eighteen-year-old that the treasure and lives America spent there were wasted. I feel the same now about Iraq.

Pssst. Follow the money.

 

No kidding. They aren't exactly the same but there sure are a lot of similarities. Too many we could have learned from the past.

 

One difference is the way the public universally has treated the soldiers fighting there for us.

Edited April 10, 2008 by Randall

[H8tank]

You surrender cowards need to get some perspective:

 

It is said that generals always fight the last war. But when David Petraeus came to town it was senators – on both sides of the aisle – who battled over the Iraq war of 2004-2006. That war has little in common with the war we are fighting today.

 

I may well have spent more time embedded with combat units in Iraq than any other journalist alive. I have seen this war – and our part in it – at its brutal worst. And I say the transformation over the last 14 months is little short of miraculous.

 

As the outrages of Abu Ghraib faded in memory – and paled in comparison to al Qaeda's brutalities – and our soldiers under the Petraeus strategy got off their big bases and out of their tanks and deeper into the neighborhoods, American values began to win the war.

 

Iraqis came to respect American soldiers as warriors who would protect them from terror gangs. But Iraqis also discovered that these great warriors are even happier helping rebuild a clinic, school or a neighborhood. They learned that the American soldier is not only the most dangerous enemy in the world, but one of the best friends a neighborhood can have.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1207873435...in_commentaries

 

You people and the need for immediate satisfaction, you need to realize things worth doing take time. You know nothing more than what the cnn tube tells you to think, or hitlery telling you the war is over and we lost. Well why don't you try listening to the guys who are over there, the guys actually doing the dirty work.

[dmarc117]

You know, if oil went to $200 a barrell, we might take some of that money we're spending in Iraq and make a real effort to find alternative energy.

 

If Iran's nuke campaign is inevitable, why bring it up as a reason to stay in Iraq?

 

I believe that the only way you say goodbye to Israel is if you say goodbye to the middle east. No way Israel goes quietly into that good night.

 

 

if iran moves in, oil is going to 200 fast and we wont have time to look for alternative energy. it will be chaos.

[Duchess Jack]

My first choice is a draft that does not allow an out for people going to college because its too easy a thing for the wealthy and influencial to manipulate.

 

Its not going to happen though.

 

I don't think we should leave, but I do think that we need better leadership.

 

I noticed a lot of people on the left and right we all for leaving...

 

with this in mind - would you vote for Obama or McCain?

...or eh.... for third party?

Edited April 11, 2008 by Duchess Jack

[budlitebrad]

My first choice is a draft that does not allow an out for people going to college because its too easy a thing for the wealthy and influencial to manipulate.

 

I'd like to have a draft if only to toughen up this latest generation of guitar hero playing, collar popping, tanning booth using facebook wussies.

[Avernus]

is it 2004 still?

[Randall]

My first choice is a draft that does not allow an out for people going to college because its too easy a thing for the wealthy and influencial to manipulate.a

 

Its not going to happen though.

 

I don't think we should leave, but I do think that we need better leadership.

 

I noticed a lot of people on the left and right we all for leaving...

 

with this in mind - would you vote for Obama or McCain?

...or eh.... for third party?

 

 

Well Patreus' reports to the congress were edited by the White House. First we need to find the truth and have real leaders decide how this can be won. If it can't we need to come up with something that works. My feeling is the various militia and groups want to battle it out when we leave, that's why they aren't negotiating.

 

A draft where the various people would sacrifice together would be welcome. This war had and still has very little debate. It's all being done in the White House and Pentagon. More differing views should be considered.

 

With me it's pragmatic. What works? I think if Patreus was in charge from the start a functioning country may have been created but it seems too late now.

When most families have lost family members coming together is very hard.

 

I think McCain wants to fight in Iran. It is 4-5 times the size of Iraq and would be a bigger nightmare. The testimony in congress kept accusing Iran but I don't take these guys words for anything anymore. Whenever they say these things they can't back them up.

 

Show proof.