Kurt Warner

[nuke'em ttg]

 

+1.... Good Call Chavez

[Chavez]

+1.... Good Call Chavez

I don't know that it has anything to do with anything, I just thought it was something to put out there. Obviously NFL players don't exist in a vacuum, so Warner's arrival in StL coincided with that of Mike Martz, Marshall Faulk and Torry Holt, so looking at the production Trent Green and Marc Bulger had there, he looks a little less special. And in Arizona he had Fitz and Boldin in place, but the Cards managed to start working on an actual running game to go with them with Edge and Hightower and brought in what appears to be a solid coach in Whiz.

 

Maybe he's just got a horseshoe up his ass.

[Vicster]

Just looking quickly, I don't think anyone should hold his year with the Giants against him. He started the first 9 games of the year, and the team went 5-4 during that time. They then decided to give Eli his chance and they promptly lost the next 6 before beating Dallas in the final game of the year.

 

I actually think that Warner got screwed over by the Rams. He gets injured and then they see Bulger as the next coming over Warner who not only brought you a Super Bowl but a couple of league MVP's so they reward him for all of that by shipping him out of town. I'm sorry, but maybe I have a little more loyalty to a guy who brought home the big one. Just maybe...

 

So Warner signs with the Giants, who then promptly drafts Eli Manning. So, of course, they stick with Eli. Then he goes to Arizona, who then drafts Leinart. The guy hasn't gotten a fair shake at actually starting and holding onto a job since he was shooed out of St. Louis. Not until Leinart effectively proved he can't run the team better than Warner.

 

Warner is as much a victim of his lack of a pedigree as Leinert is of having one and not living up to the hype. The example of the Card's having two great receivers is kind of nullified by the fact that if that mattered more than the QB throwing them the ball, then Leinert would be leading this team and not Warner.

 

I like Warner, and because of that, I feel the need to defend him. All of this is just opinion and as such, everyone has one. It doesn't mean that any of our opinions are wrong, just that they are based upon our own prejudices. I hope he does make the HoF, but I also hope that he continues to have success in the league and is well deserving of being there. Whether you are for him or doubt him, it certainly is fun to watch him and that team play this year.

[Bill Swerski]

Hyperbole much? Green has been injury prone in the 2nd half of his career, but in their prime you basically have

Green v. Faulk

6848 vs 6495 rushing yards = Green had 353 more yards

48 vs 50 rushing TDs = Faulk had 2 more

 

So rushing wise, they are fairly comparable. Green did catch very well out of the backfield, but he wasn’t used in the same system as Faulk so obviously he wasn’t featured as prominently in the passing game (though few running backs are). But hey…these are just facts, I’ll let you get back to knowing it all. I think Green was better than some people realize, but I’m sure everyone’s roster is full of RBs that average 1807 all purpose yards and 12 TDs a season for 5 years.

 

 

I think Faulk was great. I just don't see how you can view Green as so much worse when they performed similarly. Should Green have played on a crappier team? Anyway, I'm sure this is boring all the Warner people so I'll stop talking RBs.

 

No hyperbole at all. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that Green sucked, but anybody who watches the games can tell you that Faulk in his prime was at least one full tier above Green in terms of talent. He's probably the best pass-catching back to ever play the game and was very solid between the tackles as well. I don't see anything in Green's skill set that separates him from the merely "good" backs.

 

Look at the two this way: Faulk went to multiple Pro Bowls while playing on a mediocre offense. He put up MVP numbers on a great offense. He put up at least Pro Bowl-type numbers on two different teams in three different offenses. On the other hand, Green went to multiple Pro Bowls on a very good offense and had difficulty getting into the starting lineup on two mediocre offenses (SEA and HOU).

 

Given that, I wonder if, say, Thomas Jones were on the 2000-2004 Packers, would his numbers be that much different than Green's? I'm not sure that they would. Look at how much better Jones has been under Favre than Pennington/Clemens. At age 30, he's on pace for about 1,300 yds on the ground and 14-15 TDs. And I think most would agree that the 2003 Packers had a better offense than the 2008 Jets.

 

Is there a Hall of Fame for people who are especially good at holding other people's jockstrap, because apparently it's a more-involved skill than I ever realized.

 

What get's you in? Is it the tenderness with which you hold it? Or the dependability of always being there when it needs holding?

 

Does Clay Aiken sing at the induction ceremony?

 

Edited November 19, 2008 by Bill Swerski

[muck]

General observations:

 

Warner:

103 games played

47 games with 300+ yards passing (including, interestingly, only four games of more than 400 yards passing)

 

Warner (the 2008 version) is on pace for:

432 completions (NFL single season record is 440)

610 attempts

70.82% completion percentage (NFL record is 70.55%)

5,048 yards passing (NFL record is 5,084)

32 TDs

11 INTs

[kingfish247]

If Warner is the AP's 2008 MVP, he belongs in the HOF. End of story. He'd be one of only 3 players to ever be named MVP 3 times along with Unitas and Favre. More MVPs than Jim Brown, Montana, Young, and Peyton. I don't care if that player only played a total of 3 seasons. If those 3 seasons came with AP MVP honors, that is enough *ducks and covers*. If three MVPs doesn't get you in, I don't know what should.

 

Now let's look at some numbers...

 

Warner probably will never approach all-time career totals like Unitas, Favre, or Marino. Let's not even assume he'll continue this pace (he's averaging 313 per game and almost 2 TDs per game) this year AND next year. Say he averages about 275 per game and misses a total of 4 games this year and next... after 2009, he would have 32113 pass yds and well over 200 pass TDs. That's good for about top 25 in both categories.

 

Even if he doesn't pick up another MVP, the 2 he already has plus the SB ring and top 25 numbers should make him a lock.

Edited November 19, 2008 by kingfish247

[Bill Swerski]

If three MVPs doesn't get you in, I don't know what should.

 

Perhaps accolades that are objective (championships, playoff appearances, career victories, passing statistics), rather than completely subjective?

[Goopster24]

Even if he doesn't pick up another MVP, the 2 he already has plus the SB ring and top 25 numbers should make him a lock.

 

Not sure if many agree with this. I certainly don't and can't see how voters would vote him BEFORE this season.

[Jrick35]

Perhaps accolades that are objective (championships, playoff appearances, career victories, passing statistics), rather than completely subjective?

 

Do you feel that these 'objective accolades' should be measured against the all-time career marks for each statistical category for each player being considered for the hall of fame?

[Bill Swerski]

Do you feel that these 'objective accolades' should be measured against the all-time career marks for each statistical category for each player being considered for the hall of fame?

 

Not necessarily, but they absolutely should be measured against Warner's peers from the same era.

[Jrick35]

Not necessarily, but they absolutely should be measured against Warner's peers from the same era.

 

When looking at the QB's of Warners era, who else has thrown for 300 yards as many times as Warner, who else has won 2 League MVP's, who else has completed as high a percentage of their passes, who else has played in 2 Super Bowls and won 1 and been the Super Bowl MVP of 1?

 

And hypothetically, if he were to win a 3rd MVP this year, how many QB's of any era have put together MVP seasons 3 different times on 2 different teams?

 

And how many of the other QB's who have done these things do you think should or should not be in the HOF?

Edited November 19, 2008 by Jrick35

[kingfish247]

Not sure if many agree with this. I certainly don't and can't see how voters would vote him BEFORE this season.

There are 4 HOFers who are ranked from 20-25 in all-time passing yards... QB A, QB B, QB C, QB D.

There are 2 HOFers who are ranked from 20-25 in all-time pass TDs... QB A and QB E.

 

QB A = 2 MVPs, 3 SBs

QB B = 1 AP MVP, 2 UPI MVPs, 0 SBs

QB C = 0 MVPs, 3 SBs

QB D = 0 MVPs, 0 SBs

QB E = 1 MVP, 4 SBs

...

Assuming my projections above hold true (missing 4 games total in 2008-2009, avg 275 per game, 1.5 TDs per game)... Warner, by objective numbers, will be in the same class as the above 5 QBs.

 

Like I said above, Warner is not a HOFer yet. If he continues on the above conservative pace this year and next, his objective numbers will put him in the realm of some serious HOFers. Throw in his 2 MVPs (maybe 3) and 1 SB, it then becomes very difficult to keep him out.

[kingfish247]

Perhaps accolades that are objective (championships, playoff appearances, career victories, passing statistics), rather than completely subjective?

Being voted NFL MVP is hardly completely subjective. It's the consensus of 50 members of the media who cover the NFL. Many of whom are probably HOF voters themselves.

 

Completely subjective would be extrapolating the HOF or MVP worthiness based on the Cardinals beat writer for the Arizona Republic.

 

Say he gets the 3rd MVP this year, never plays another down, and therefore never reaches this mystical threshold of enough objective stat-ness to be even considered... that still leaves the fact that the above came to a consensus 3 times saying Warner was the most valuable player in the league. That's the same number as Favre, one more than Peyton (so far), one more than Montana, one more than Young. Peyton being Warner's only contemporary out of that list. Favre being Warner's contemporary for half of Favre's career and Favre never earning an MVP after Warner's first MVP.

Edited November 19, 2008 by kingfish247

[WaterMan]

He was labeled MVP so many times for a reason.

 

Can you guess it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He's just that good.

[Bill Swerski]

When looking at the QB's of Warners era, who else has thrown for 300 yards as many times as Warner, who else has won 2 League MVP's, who else has completed as high a percentage of their passes, who else has played in 2 Super Bowls and won 1 and been the Super Bowl MVP of 1?

 

And hypothetically, if he were to win a 3rd MVP this year, how many QB's of any era have put together MVP seasons 3 different times on 2 different teams?

 

And how many of the other QB's who have done these things do you think should or should not be in the HOF?

 

How many HOF quarterbacks have spent a full HALF of their careers putting up below-average numbers or riding the pine?

 

There are three active QBs in the NFL right now that are absolute lead-pipe locks for the HOF, and Warner is a distant fourth behind them. That doesn't mean that Warner can't or won't get inducted, but NOBODY who follows football could honestly say that Warner is in the same class as Manning, Brady, or Favre. The fact that Warner is a distant fourth to those three strongly suggests that his path to Canton is uphill.

 

Being voted NFL MVP is hardly completely subjective. It's the consensus of 50 members of the media who cover the NFL. Many of whom are probably HOF voters themselves.

 

It absolutely is completely subjective, because it's based solely on OPINION, not fact. Even if it's collective opinion, it's still nothing more than opinion.

 

Completely subjective would be extrapolating the HOF or MVP worthiness based on the Cardinals beat writer for the Arizona Republic.

 

You're confusing "subjectivity" with "bias" and "conflict of interest."

 

Say he gets the 3rd MVP this year, never plays another down, and therefore never reaches this mystical threshold of enough objective stat-ness to be even considered... that still leaves the fact that the above came to a consensus 3 times saying Warner was the most valuable player in the league. That's the same number as Favre, one more than Peyton (so far), one more than Montana, one more than Young. Peyton being Warner's only contemporary out of that list. Favre being Warner's contemporary for half of Favre's career and Favre never earning an MVP after Warner's first MVP.

 

Being subjectively labeled "MVP" by dumbass media tards like Peter King doesn't make one a HOFer. Dominating on the field over a long period of time, winning games, and (ideally) winning championships are the criteria for enshrinement in Canton. Warner won a championship and a respectable number of games, but his lack of sustained dominance (and even lack of respectable play for several years) severely undercuts his bid for Canton.

 

I just don't understand how MVP awards are now suddenly the measuring stick for greatness. Marshall Faulk and Barry Sanders have fewer MVP awards than Warner, and there's no question that both are/were more deserving of HOF enshrinement. Neither Marvin Harrison nor Randy Moss have ever won an MVP award, yet they've both CLEARLY had much better careers than Warner. There are also countless non-skill-position players (Ray Lewis, Michael Strahan, Deion Sanders, Willie Roaf, Will Shields, etc.) that have also never won a League MVP who make Warner look downright pedestrian in comparison.

[muck]

IF Warner keeps piling up the stats / wins / awards, it'll be real interesting to hear the media talk about his possible enshrinement when he becomes eligible down the road...

[Jrick35]

How many HOF quarterbacks have spent a full HALF of their careers putting up below-average numbers or riding the pine?

 

Ok, Warner gets a chance to start in St Louis in 1999, 2000, 2001 & 2002. During which time he wins 2 MVPS, a Super Bowl & a Super Bowl MVP. His Passer Ratings were 109.2, 98.3, 101.4 & 67.4. Except for the 67.4 Passer Rating for the first 7 games of 2002 Warner was arguably the best QB in the league for this time frame. Then in 2002 he gets injured and despite everything he had done for the Rams he never got another chance to start in St Louis.

 

Is that Warners fault? Did 7 bad games in one season really undo the three seasons previous to that? Do you think he had earned the right to be a starter after his injury? And do you remember Warners selfless act in 2003 when Martz was going to yank Bulger? His actions then add to his character.

 

Then Warner gets shipped off to NY where he was not spectacular but never-the-less in his first year in a totally new system, with totally new Teammates his Passer Rating was still a respectable 86.5. And let's not forget, the Giants Team Warner played with that year was not a very good team and yet his stats were not bad considering the circomstances. Of course after 10 games they made way for Eli.

 

So Warner moves on to Arizona and immediately becomes embroiled in another QB mess when they draft Leinart. He has been a Cardinal for 58 games through last week. He has started 36 games. This despite learning yet another new system on yet another new team and despite battling another young hot shot qb for the job.

 

And now he is the unquestioned starter and he is putting up MVP numbers yet again.

 

So in a career that thus far has spanned 176 games 9 of which were lost to injury in 2002 Warner has started 112 games. If we are gracious enough to not count games lost to injury as games where he 'rode the pine' then he has started 67% of his games in the NFL. And he has done this despite being traded twice to teams who had an agenda for getting their newest young 1st rd draft pick QB's to start as quickly as possible.

 

And of course when given the opportunity to start there has been nothing average about Warner's play. And the most important thing to remember when talking about the percentage of his career spent 'riding the pine' is that his career is not over, just yet.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Jrick35

[Bill Swerski]

Ok, Warner gets a chance to start in St Louis in 1999, 2000, 2001 & 2002. During which time he wins 2 MVPS, a Super Bowl & a Super Bowl MVP. His Passer Ratings were 109.2, 98.3, 101.4 & 67.4.

 

Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Pace, Vermeil, and Martz had A LOT to do with that, BTW.

 

Then in 2002 he gets injured and despite everything he had done for the Rams he never got another chance to start in St Louis.

 

Is that Warners fault? Did 7 bad games in one season really undo the three seasons previous to that? Do you think he had earned the right to be a starter after his injury? And do you remember Warners selfless act in 2003 when Martz was going to yank Bulger? His actions then add to his character.

 

Was it Terrell Davis' fault that he blew out his knee in 1999? Was it Priest Holmes' fault that Brian Billick didn't utilize his skills correctly in BAL and that he suffered a career-ending neck injury in KC? While the answers to these are obviously "no," these fact remains that players need to be on the field playing for a sustained period of time if they want to get into the HOF.

 

Then Warner gets shipped off to NY where he was not spectacular but never-the-less in his first year in a totally new system, with totally new Teammates his Passer Rating was still a respectable 86.5. And let's not forget, the Giants Team Warner played with that year was not a very good team and yet his stats were not bad considering the circomstances.

 

Warner sucked in New York, a full 2 1/2 years removed from the thumb injury that he suffered in SB 36. He threw a whopping 6 TDs in 9 starts. New system or not, that's inexcusable.

 

Of course after 10 games they made way for Eli.

 

So Warner moves on to Arizona and immediately becomes embroiled in another QB mess when they draft Leinart. He has been a Cardinal for 58 games through last week. He has started 36 games. This despite learning yet another new system on yet another new team and despite battling another young hot shot qb for the job.

 

Warner being relegated to the bench in favor of Matt Freaking Leinart and a rookie Eli who was known more for throwing game-changing interceptions than engineering game-winning drives isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of his HOF worthiness.

 

So in a career that thus far has spanned 176 games 9 of which were lost to injury in 2002 Warner has started 112 games. If we are gracious enough to not count games lost to injury as games where he 'rode the pine' then he has started 67% of his games in the NFL.

 

It's not a question of being "gracious" or not. Being healthy enough to play certainly is an important criterion for HOF induction. Or are you suggesting that the HOF committee give "passes" to Terrell Davis and Priest Holmes? And, again, starting in 67% of one's games isn't exactly a ringing HOF endorsement.

 

And of course when given the opportunity to start there has been nothing average about Warner's play.

 

This is false. Warner had NUMEROUS opportunities to start from 2002-2005 and was unbelievably bad.

 

I like Warner a lot, and hope that he gets in. RIGHT NOW, I don't think that he's worthy of induction. If he throws for 5,200 yds, gets the Cardinals to the NFC Championship Game, and has a respectable 2009 season, I'll probably change my mind.

 

Warner's case is a compelling one, and also an important one that will likely establish future precedent. As displayed in this thread, he certainly has the "likability" factor working in his favor. Aikman getting in on the first ballot clearly showed that the HOF voters have agendas, so it's likely that Kurt being an overwhelmingly-respected figure around the league will play into the decision-making process.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Bill Swerski

[Seahawks21]

He is in. Whatever the bar is, he has more than passed it. Anyone still arguing something other than that at this point either has too much pride to rescend their previous statements, or has something against Warner. The guy is about as much of a lock as you can get. It is just reality. There is absolutely zero chance that he doesn't get in. Zero.

 

MVPs, Super Bowls, Super Bowl MVPs and records ultimately outweigh a few missed years. The guy is just in. He is closer to Manning, Brady & Favre than he is Brees or whoever else would be next. Kurt Warner is a HOF'er. There shouldn't be any doubt.

[Bill Swerski]

He is in. Whatever the bar is, he has more than passed it. Anyone still arguing something other than that at this point either has too much pride to rescend their previous statements, or has something against Warner. The guy is about as much of a lock as you can get. It is just reality. There is absolutely zero chance that he doesn't get in. Zero.

 

It would be nice if your Football IQ were somewhere near your level of arrogance.

[policyvote]

MVPs, Super Bowls, Super Bowl MVPs and records ultimately outweigh a few missed years.

 

 

What about a few years in the prime of his career where he played like crap got benched, got shipped off, and got benched again?

 

Peace

policy

[Seahawks21]

It would be nice if your Football IQ were somewhere near your level of arrogance.

I thought we had grown past the point of disguising insults as posts.

 

You know what, I just deleted the post I was working on. I can't stomach your garbage anymore. What a complete waste of time. Good day sir. Another decent thread ruined by Swerski. Doesn't this ever get old to you?

[Seahawks21]

What about a few years in the prime of his career where he played like crap got benched, got shipped off, and got benched again?

 

Peace

policy

Brett Favre had some pretty bad years. The middle of John Elway's career was spotty at best. Who cares!? They have Super Bowls and MVPs and Super Bowl MVPs. Warner has done so much good that it dwarfs the negative, just like the other two examples.

[Bill Swerski]

I thought we had grown past the point of disguising insults as posts.

 

This thread was going just fine until your post condescendingly questioned the motives of those who disagree with your absolutist rhetoric. This post is also a great example of why few people here respect your opinion.

[kingfish247]

...

Being subjectively labeled "MVP" by dumbass media tards like Peter King doesn't make one a HOFer. Dominating on the field over a long period of time, winning games, and (ideally) winning championships are the criteria for enshrinement in Canton.

...

Ummm, dumbass media tards decide who is in and who isn't... from profootballhof.com

Charged with the vital task of continuing to be certain that new enshrinees are the finest the game has produced is the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s 44-person Selection Committee. [ Pro Football Hall of Fame's Selection Process/List of Board of Selectors>>>]

 

The Selection Committee consists of one media representative from each geographical area with a current NFL franchise. If a geographical area has more than one franchise (such as New York City) there shall be a selector for each franchise. A 33rd member is a representative of the Pro Football Writers of America and there are 11 at-large delegates.

 

The Selection Committee meets annually at the time of the Super Bowl to elect new members to the Hall of Fame. There is no set number of new enshrinees, but the Committee’s current ground rules do stipulate that between four and seven new members will be selected each year. Every candidate is carefully scrutinized and must receive at least 80 percent approval of the Committee at the annual meeting before he can be elected.

I just don't understand how MVP awards are now suddenly the measuring stick for greatness. Marshall Faulk and Barry Sanders have fewer MVP awards than Warner, and there's no question that both are/were more deserving of HOF enshrinement. ...

Not just any MVP award but THE MVP award is absolutely one part of many measures for 'greatness'. Go down the list of AP MVPs. It's mostly HOFers. All of the multiple MVPs are HOFers. It doesn't take a great triumph over cognitive dissonance to see how Warner might be a deserving candidate. Especially if he finishes in the top 25 range in pass TDs and pass yards.

Edited November 20, 2008 by kingfish247