Azazello1313 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 an ongoing theme of the current administration is that the current economic crisis PROVES that the government needs to start spending trillions more on health care, education, an even more progressive tax code, and so on. we are in the crisis we are in because bush cut the top marginal tax rate from 38% to 35% (even though he cut every other marginal rate even more), because of wild-eyed de-regulation (though this canard is easily put down), because the 58% increase in federal education spending under bush just wasn't enough, etc. our economy is where it is because of the policies of the last 8 years, and the only way out is a massive swing in the direction of more government, more regulation, nationalized health care, etc. it seems like that would be a nice little story, if only the rest of the world didn't exist. europe -- which already HAS government health care, higher taxes, more government intervention in the economy -- seems worse off than we are. why is that? the UK is about to go bankrupt. since the beginning of the economic crisis, the dollar has actually strengthened against the euro. their budget deficits are even bigger than ours as percentage of GDP (though obama is quickly trying to close that gap). in short, I fail to see how all of this big government -- particularly in areas like health care -- is going to protect us in any way from the next economic crisis. yet that is exactly what is being sold to us as an absolutely necessary antidote -- one that is SO absolutely necessary, that it is worth piling trillions more onto already exorbitant deficits, with no end in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Holy socialist utopia Batman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Some won't be happy until the guy sitting at home watching HBO on the new 63" plasma sitting on his leather couch picking the steak out of his gold teeth who hasn't worked a day in his life has as much money as those of us that work 60-80 hours a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driveby Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Democracy in Europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 As I understand it, UK's banks were some of the heaviest betters on CDO's and issuing credit default swaps. Without looking at your link, I'd guess that's why the UK financial system is in the tank. Even with Obama's tax increase on the top 5%, it doesn't come close the the tax burden of most europeans. Nationalized health care will actuayy lessen the burden economic burden on the average taxpayer. I'd guess European governments have no ability to ask for more from their citizenry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Sacrebleu Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 an ongoing theme of the current administration is that the current economic crisis PROVES that the government needs to start spending trillions more on health care, education, an even more progressive tax code, and so on. we are in the crisis we are in because bush cut the top marginal tax rate from 38% to 35% (even though he cut every other marginal rate even more), because of wild-eyed de-regulation (though this canard is easily put down), because the 58% increase in federal education spending under bush just wasn't enough, etc. our economy is where it is because of the policies of the last 8 years, and the only way out is a massive swing in the direction of more government, more regulation, nationalized health care, etc. it seems like that would be a nice little story, if only the rest of the world didn't exist. europe -- which already HAS government health care, higher taxes, more government intervention in the economy -- seems worse off than we are. why is that? the UK is about to go bankrupt. since the beginning of the economic crisis, the dollar has actually strengthened against the euro. their budget deficits are even bigger than ours as percentage of GDP (though obama is quickly trying to close that gap). in short, I fail to see how all of this big government -- particularly in areas like health care -- is going to protect us in any way from the next economic crisis. yet that is exactly what is being sold to us as an absolutely necessary antidote -- one that is SO absolutely necessary, that it is worth piling trillions more onto already exorbitant deficits, with no end in sight. I really don't know sh!t about economy, and frankly I have asked myself the same basic question. But Bush cutting the top marginal tax rate has not been on anyone's list of the reasons for the meltdown. To say so is disnegenuous. Also I am guessing that it depends where you are going in regards to your present situation. Your argument is the same as the moronic right wing radio whackos who say that Kennedy lowered taxes on the upper tier to get the economy going, hence lowering taxes is the way to go. So a 65% tax rate is the way to go? I am guessing that a short term massive stimulus to the economy (coupled with larger infrastructure investments that fit in with your argument) is not the same as european socialist countries who pay into the system as a matter of general principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driveby Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Nationalized health care will actuayy lessen the burden economic burden on the average taxpayer. I guess if you figure in the cost savings of letting people die while waiting for inferior treatment. Regarding health care: In Great Britain, 100,000 operations are canceled every year because of the need for rationing. In Sweden, patients must sometimes wait 25 weeks to make an appointment for heart surgery. When patients in these countries finally do obtain care, they often find themselves subjected to technologies that have long since been rendered obsolete. These outcomes are not peculiar to Europe; they occur in every country where the government controls access to health care and regulates everything from the price of drugs to the salaries of doctors. These interventions drive down the supply of high-quality health care while driving up demand, thereby creating painful shortages. They also destroy the incentive to innovate, thus limiting the potential for technological advances that cut costs and save lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Nationalized health care will actuayy lessen the burden economic burden on the average taxpayer. So he is buying votes and using my money to do it. How about this idea, every body pay their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 But Bush cutting the top marginal tax rate has not been on anyone's list of the reasons for the meltdown. To say so is disnegenuous. dude. come on now. bush's "tax cuts for the wealthiest americans" is in every speech obama gives. it's probably burned into the plasma on his teleprompter by now. disingenuous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Sacrebleu Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 dude. come on now. bush's "tax cuts for the wealthiest americans" is in every speech obama gives. it's probably burned into the plasma on his teleprompter by now. disingenuous Dude. While "tax cuts for the wealthiest" may be a democratic mantra, it is used as a fiddling-while-Rome-is-burning mantra, not as a Reason-for-Rome-burning mantra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Dude. While "tax cuts for the wealthiest" may be a democratic mantra, it is used as a fiddling-while-Rome-is-burning mantra, not as a Reason-for-Rome-burning mantra Dude, it's the 38% of voters that don't effectively don't pay any taxes that are fiddling while Rome is burning, not those that pay the most both in dollars and as a percentage of income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Some won't be happy until the guy sitting at home watching Rush Limbaugh on the new 63" plasma sitting on his leather couch picking the steak out of his gold teeth who hasn't worked a day in his life has as much money as those of us that work 60-80 hours a week. fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 dude. come on now. bush's "tax cuts for the wealthiest americans" is in every speech obama gives. it's probably burned into the plasma on his teleprompter by now. disingenuous No wonder he couldn't see his scripted answer on why the middle class tax cuts were going bye-bye. :duckandweave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Sacrebleu Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Dude, it's the 38% of voters that don't effectively don't pay any taxes that are fiddling while Rome is burning, not those that pay the most both in dollars and as a percentage of income. Dude. You have some metaphor issues. I for one, am having problems picturing the poor in the role of Nero.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Same song, different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driveby Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Obama: Government Did a Good Job of Cleaning Up a Mess That a Senator Created When asked why government should get even more power and regulatory authority after a less-than-reassuring performance throughout the financial crisis, President Obama cited the FDIC's management of the collapse of IndyMac bank, and said that when government has enough "tools" — power and authority — it does its job well. That would be the bank that was destroyed because of reckless comments by Sen. Chuck Schumer, according to the Office of Thrift Supervision. The OTS has determined that the current institution, IndyMac Bank, is unlikely to be able to meet continued depositors’ demands in the normal course of business and is therefore in an unsafe and unsound condition. The immediate cause of the closing was a deposit run that began and continued after the public release of a June 26 letter to the OTS and the FDIC from Senator Charles Schumer of New York. The letter expressed concerns about IndyMac’s viability. In the following 11 business days, depositors withdrew more than $1.3 billion from their accounts. Nice job Chucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 Dude. While "tax cuts for the wealthiest" may be a democratic mantra, it is used as a fiddling-while-Rome-is-burning mantra, not as a Reason-for-Rome-burning mantra well sure, nobody's quite dumb enough to come right out and say the economy tanked specifically because of bush's tax cuts....but it's always molded into the same sell. "the failed economic policies of the last 8 years", which have "concentrated our nation's wealth in the hands of a few", blah blah blah. of course they have to be all vague and rhetorical when they say it, because they will sound really stupid if they try and draw a specific causal link, but that doesn't mean they don't lean on it at every opportunity. and meanwhile all of this rhetoric is being used to justify wholesale implementation of the big-government agenda of the democratic party as the only thing that can possibly save us. so I guess I'm just wondering about the "failed economic policies" of all the countries who already implemented that agenda and yet are doing even worse than we are in the current economic cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Sacrebleu Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 well sure, nobody's quite dumb enough to come right out and say the economy tanked specifically because of bush's tax cuts.... yet you did in this thread start when you gave 'voice' to the opposition we are in the crisis we are in because bush cut the top marginal tax rate from 38% to 35% which no one has ever claimed. except you. But obviously no is quite dumb enough to do that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 tell you what, sac...go ask 10 of your smartest lefty friends what got us into this crisis, and when they say "bush's failed economic policies", ask them specifically what those failed polcies were. my money is on at least 8 of them specifically mentioning his "tax cuts for the rich". it is leftist mantra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) here's an obama quote from one of the presidential debates that illustrates what I am taking about: Now, we also have to recognize that this is a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by George Bush, supported by Senator McCain, a theory that basically says that we can shred regulations and consumer protections and give more and more to the most, and somehow prosperity will trickle down. of course, he never came out and said, "if not for bush's tax cuts for the rich, the economy would be fine". that is what I am saying would be stupid. he is just certain to use that "more and more to the most" line every time the state of the economy comes up. the press never "pressed" him on which specific bushmccain policies directly caused the crisis and how, so I don't think he ever really had to address that, he could just sit back and lob the vague, generalized charge time after time. the theme emerges....too much capitalism got us here, more socialism is the only thing that can get us out. all's I'm saying is, by that logic, more socialism is what got plenty of other countries into this crisis along with us. Edited March 25, 2009 by Azazello1313 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Some won't be happy until the guy sitting at home watching HBO on the new 63" plasma sitting on his leather couch picking the steak out of his gold teeth who hasn't worked a day in his life has as much money as those of us that work 60-80 hours a week. Dude, it's the 38% of voters that don't effectively don't pay any taxes that are fiddling while Rome is burning, not those that pay the most both in dollars and as a percentage of income. For a guy that works 60-80 hours a week... I'm sure very very hard... for your Dad's company, you sure find a lot of time to post in political threads during the day. Maybe you should stop complaining that other people don't work hard enough, and recognize that you are a very fortunate person who had advantages that some people didn't have. Recognize that you fail to generate pity for the rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 For a guy that works 60-80 hours a week... I'm sure very very hard... for your Dad's company, you sure find a lot of time to post in political threads during the day. Maybe you should stop complaining that other people don't work hard enough, and recognize that you are a very fortunate person who had advantages that some people didn't have. Recognize that you fail to generate pity for the rich. If ever I was in a situation to be pittied by you I'd truely be pitiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) I guess if you figure in the cost savings of letting people die while waiting for inferior treatment. I doubt my brother in law, recently (this weekend) cured of cancer at a cost of nothing under the crappy British system will agree. Edited March 26, 2009 by Ursa Majoris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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