Very few if any here willl ever understand...

[REZ]

I was in a union when I was 21.

The thing I noticed was that seniority played a much bigger part in deciding hours worked and what area people worked then actual ability/work ethic. I was in a union since then for a 2nd job that I do occassionally and the people talk to me about some of the stuff that goes on.

People who work and don't mess off are getting upset at some of the other people because they don't work but anytime the supervisor tries to write them up, the person calls the union and they start interviewing everybody in the department.

What they are learning is that there are no repercussions to not working. Raises are guranteed in the contract and hours are guranteed if they have seniority.

Now my wife works at a place where all but 2 departments have a union. Her department has had mandatory flexing, insurance costs went up and a couple other things. Those places didn't happen in the unionized departments.

So her department decided they would investigate unionizing.

They couldn't get the union to call them back despite 10 calls including to the main office.

Then one of the union stewards (in other department) told them that the union had agreed not to unionize any other areas at her work.

I don't know why they did that. All speculation so I won't repeat it.

They have called another union to see if they can do anything. My wife is torn what to do. She hates the mandatory flexing that they have to do but she also was the only person in her department who got the highest raise possbile and she knows everybody will get the same raise after this.

Personally, I'd rather not be in a union due my past experiences with them.

I imagine they are necessary in certain fields but I don't think they are necessary everywhere.

[Grits and Shins]

Some unions are really no different than big business.

[darin3]

Yeah, maybe it could be a little weak, but it is an emotional issue, at least w/ me and as I can see several on this board.

You know I love you, RR. But this is where many could stop reading. Wouldn't matter what the issue is; when it's one that's ruled mainly by emotion, it's incredibly difficult to stay objective.

[rocknrobn26]

You know I love you, RR. But this is where many could stop reading. Wouldn't matter what the issue is; when it's one that's ruled mainly by emotion, it's incredibly difficult to stay objective.

 

Maybe. If so they never saw this:

"but when I made this post my intent was not to try a sway anyone (Yeah like that could happen). It was my heartfelt feelings then and now."

[darin3]

Maybe. If so they never saw this:

"but when I made this post my intent was not to try a sway anyone (Yeah like that could happen). It was my heartfelt feelings then and now."

And that's absolutely fine.

[Skippy]

Maybe. If so they never saw this:

"but when I made this post my intent was not to try a sway anyone (Yeah like that could happen). It was my heartfelt feelings then and now."

Pretty much where I stand at this point, RR. You and I have been down this road and over and over the issues. People that walk in a whole different brand of shoes will never get it no matter what you type on a message board.

[rocknrobn26]

Pretty much where I stand at this point, RR. You and I have been down this road and over and over the issues. People that walk in a whole different brand of shoes will never get it no matter what you type on a message board.

 

And we're missing Aqua, may he rest in peace.

Amen Brother...AMEN!

Edited November 23, 2009 by rocknrobn26

[Azazello1313]

Based on the laws of this country, the rights of the individual virtually cease to exist once a person steps onto the company property. It is only by the grace of that company that they allow the worker ANYTHING.

 

This is one place where the free market is not the best solution for the individual. One must remember that business is a game to most bean counters. Their job is to maximize profits for the shareholders, regardless if that shareholder is an individual or a group.

 

well this is where I completely disagree. winning that "game" requires talent. it requires people who are competent, work hard, and take pride in what they do. anyone who has ever been remotely successful in business realizes the only way to win the "game" and maximize profit is to get people on board with what you're trying to accomplish. and that means, paying them, treating them well, etc. in relation to their value to your business. the economic history of this country proves unequivocally that far more often than not, the free market IS the best solution for the individual.

[rocknrobn26]

well this is where I completely disagree. winning that "game" requires talent. it requires people who are competent, work hard, and take pride in what they do. anyone who has ever been remotely successful in business realizes the only way to win the "game" and maximize profit is to get people on board with what you're trying to accomplish. and that means, paying them, treating them well, etc. in relation to their value to your business. the economic history of this country proves unequivocally that far more often than not, the free market IS the best solution for the individual.

 

You tell me I'm weak and yet you post this wishful never gonna happen stuff? Business needs profit and they will seek that what ever the outcome,be it on the backs of the worker or some other way.

Luv ya Az, but you are more wishful than realistic.

Peace!

rr26

[Azazello1313]

Unions are here and I pray they always will be. They created America and stand FOR AMERICA! it's called FREEDOM!

 

it's hard to say they created america when they didn't exist in any significance until the late 19th, early 20th century. I would also say they are very much the antithesis of freedom, but that's more my opinion than verifiable historical fact.

 

in any case, while my own philosophy is far too individualistic and libertarian to ever really like the idea of labor unions, I appreciate their positive role in a certain period in american history, and if people today want to collectively bargian, they should be free to do so (even if I think it's contrary to their own long-term interests, as well as those of the economy as a whole). I'm not saying they should be illegal or anything. my main gripe is with their role in politics. they are shills of one party, and they consistently push for economic policies that make no economic sense (I would venture to say that wiegie will mostly agree with me on that last statement).

[Azazello1313]

You tell me I'm weak and yet you post this wishful never gonna happen stuff? Business needs profit and they will seek that what ever the outcome,be it on the backs of the worker or some other way.

Luv ya Az, but you are more wishful than realistic.

Peace!

rr26

 

it has absolutely nothing to do with wishful thinking, my argument is based on historical fact. like I said, look at the economic history of this country. we have been one of the least unionized countries in the western world, and over that time (the 20th century) we went from a little farming country to the largest economy in the world. yeah, business needs profit....and like I said, most of them know the best way to get there is to compensate talented people for working for them. and the better they are, the more they should be compensated (a very anti-union idea, by the way). you said yourself that unions comprise a relatively small percentage of the overall work force -- but you want to give them credit for creating FREEDOM and AMERICA?? come on.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Azazello1313

[rocknrobn26]

it's hard to say they created america when they didn't exist in any significance until the late 19th, early 20th century. I would also say they are very much the antithesis of freedom, but that's more my opinion than verifiable historical fact.

 

in any case, while my own philosophy is far too individualistic and libertarian to ever really like the idea of labor unions, I appreciate their positive role in a certain period in american history, and if people today want to collectively bargian, they should be free to do so (even if I think it's contrary to their own long-term interests, as well as those of the economy as a whole). I'm not saying they should be illegal or anything. my main gripe is with their role in politics. they are shills of one party, and they consistently push for economic policies that make no economic sense (I would venture to say that wiegie will mostly agree with me on that last statement).

 

Your opinions are on the record. The opinions above reflect the same. There is no need for us to keep batting the ball back and forth.

As I said before I am not trying to sway one's opinion. And I think you are no different. Or maybe not. Regardless you do not think unions have a purpose but I think they do! I think it's called a no win. I'll leave it at that.

Peace

rr26

[rocknrobn26]

it has absolutely nothing to do with wishful thinking, my argument is based on historical fact. like I said, look at the economic history of this country. we have been one of the least unionized countries in the western world, and over that time (the 20th century) we went from a little farming country to the largest economy in the world. yeah, business needs profit....and like I said, most of them know the best way to get there is to compensate talented people for working for them. and the better they are, the more they should be compensated (a very anti-union idea, by the way). you said yourself that unions comprise a relatively small percentage of the overall work force -- but you want to give them credit for creating FREEDOM and AMERICA?? come on.

 

You are following the theory that if you poke your finger enuff you will make a hole.

I'm not going there.

Az,

Your stance is on record. Whether it's the majority or not, I couldn't care less. I stated my opinions. I stand by them. If that is lame then so be it. Your mind is more closed than a 4oz can of tuna. I already admitted my mind is closed, how about you doing the same?

rr26

[jaxfactor]

I have been a union member for my 22 years in the Postal Service. NALC branch 53

 

From what I have seen and experienced, there are pros and cons. But the pros definitely outweigh the cons. I have to say, that if this job were non-union, I would not be doing this. Some people would think I have an easy job. Those same people would be closed-minded. Just tell that to my knees, legs, and feet after 22 years of walking my ass off.

 

Thanks to my union, I have decent health benefits. I get much needed vacation time. I get compensated for going the extra mile. Need I go on? I believe in the credo of a fair days work, for a fair days pay. Sure, there are those who take advantage of the union and don't work hard like most of us do. But isn't that the case anywhere? I'd call those non-union members who don't carry their fair share very lucky they still have a job.

[rocknrobn26]

I have been a union member for my 22 years in the Postal Service. NALC branch 53

 

From what I have seen and experienced, there are pros and cons. But the pros definitely outweigh the cons. I have to say, that if this job were non-union, I would not be doing this. Some people would think I have an easy job. Those same people would be closed-minded. Just tell that to my knees, legs, and feet after 22 years of walking my ass off.

 

Thanks to my union, I have decent health benefits. I get much needed vacation time. I get compensated for going the extra mile. Need I go on? I believe in the credo of a fair days work, for a fair days pay. Sure, there are those who take advantage of the union and don't work hard like most of us do. But isn't that the case anywhere? I'd call those non-union members who don't carry their fair share very lucky they still have a job.

 

Well said Brother...Well said!

Your comments will probably fall on deaf ears, but I heard you!

[cre8tiff]

I have been a union member for my 22 years in the Postal Service. NALC branch 53

 

From what I have seen and experienced, there are pros and cons. But the pros definitely outweigh the cons. I have to say, that if this job were non-union, I would not be doing this. Some people would think I have an easy job. Those same people would be closed-minded. Just tell that to my knees, legs, and feet after 22 years of walking my ass off.

 

Thanks to my union, I have decent health benefits. I get much needed vacation time. I get compensated for going the extra mile. Need I go on? I believe in the credo of a fair days work, for a fair days pay. Sure, there are those who take advantage of the union and don't work hard like most of us do. But isn't that the case anywhere? I'd call those non-union members who don't carry their fair share very lucky they still have a job.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head there. If the unions regulated themselves to take care of negatives in order to help business as much as they fight for positives to help individuals, this argument would be moot.

 

But they don't.

[Perchoutofwater]

We do not have a large union contingent here in Texas. I have had to deal with them on a few jobs with larger trade contractors that come in from out of state. From everything I've witnessed they cause inefficiency. I have not witnessed any increase safety as some claim, nor have I witnessed any increase in knowledge. I have witnessed lack of motivation and an entitlement attitude among union workers. I'd also add that I definitely see why unions were started but OSHA and other government agencies have pretty well eliminated the real need for unions. Those of you that support the unions claim management to be "evil". Well we don't have unions, but all of my employees make as much if not more than union employees when you take into consideration the union dues union members pay. They all get paid overtime (except management), and they all have health insurance and 401K's. The only thing they don't have that a union offers them is protection from subpar performance. Most business owners know that happy employees are productive employees. Sure there are some bad business owners but they are not the norm, and they could be handled through existing government agencies. I'm really not emotional about this one way or the other as it has very little direct effect on my or my business. I'm just passing along my observations from the few times I've run into unions, as well as common sense that is unclouded by having a dog in this fight.

[Perchoutofwater]

I just got finished with a nice young man who's email address ends @dol.gov. Let me just tell you some of their thinking is more screwed up than the unions. I just love when my lunch gets interrupted like that. I don't think I'll get fined but my roofer probably will, and the reasoning is absolutely crazy. More to come once I know I'm out of the woods.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Perchoutofwater