Psychopaths

[matt770]

Definition per Wikipedia:

 

Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with abnormally immoral conduct despite an ability to appear normal.

 

Researcher Robert Hare, whose Hare Psychopathy Checklist is widely used, describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators". Hare and others write that psychopaths "use charisma, manipulation, intimidation, sexual intercourse and violence" to control others and to satisfy their own needs. Hare states that: "Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse". He previously stated that: "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony"

 

We're not talking about serial killers here -- a psychopath could be your boss, neighbor or family member. They are compulsive liars and manipulators, who take what they want from people without remorse. I had a run-in with a neighborhood crazy cat lady a couple years ago, and it was a nightmare. Apart from the stress and trauma of the whole ordeal, it profoundly changed how I look at the world. I used to believe that God put everyone on earth for a specific purpose, and I was opposed to capital punishment. Now I have a lot of questions about why this creator who is purported to love us so much would throw these defective-from-birth monsters into the game just to f*ck with everyone.

 

Dealing with this woman and finding out that she has lived her entire life basically as a cancerous tumor on society's ass for 40 years, working menial jobs and getting fired over and over, sponging off naive people she targeted to befriend and then defraud, stalking/harassing dozens of people, filing false criminal charges and bogus lawsuits, and beating people up in bars -- at some point it occurred to me that the world would be a much better place without her in it. And there are millions of people just like her, born without a conscience and immune to treatment. In fact, counseling makes these people worse because they learn how to act as if they have a conscience and this enables them to target more people.

 

When you are raised to believe in things like salvation and you are faced with a person like this, it is impossible to reconcile. It makes you question what it even means to be "human". It's pretty fascinating and disturbing stuff, and I wonder if you can really get a sense of what I'm talking about unless you have dealt with one of these people up close.

 

I'd be curious to know if anyone here has had experiences with people like this.

[Big John]

I'd be curious to know if anyone here has had experiences with people like this.

That could describe my father.

[Kid Cid]

My ex brother-in-law fits the description to a T but I'm reasonably certain that he's never been diagnosed as such or if he has, nothing has ever been done about it. Unfortunately, he still has visitation rights for the niece and nephew. The kids are 8 and 6 now and starting to fight back about going to see him.

 

As to the other part of your question, I would ask that you take the superstitious out of the equation. Just for arguments sake, let's assume that there are no gods controlling any aspect of this place. Does that allow your brain to accept what it sees easier or does it create more difficulty? This is not about the question of whether gods exist or not. This is simply an exercise in logic. If there are no gods creating these "defective" people, what does that say about the world that we live in. Do you like it more or less? Can your brain come to grips with the existence of the "defectives" easier?

 

Personally, I think it is impossible to reconcile many of the things I've observed in the physical world with things being taught by the major religions. However, I do believe that you are taking the steps down the road to your own spiritual enlightenment.

[dmarc117]

people are selfish pricks

[matt770]

As to the other part of your question, I would ask that you take the superstitious out of the equation. Just for arguments sake, let's assume that there are no gods controlling any aspect of this place. Does that allow your brain to accept what it sees easier or does it create more difficulty? This is not about the question of whether gods exist or not. This is simply an exercise in logic. If there are no gods creating these "defective" people, what does that say about the world that we live in. Do you like it more or less? Can your brain come to grips with the existence of the "defectives" easier?

 

What this issue has forced me to come to terms with, is that whether or not a creator exists, certainly my old concepts of right and wrong, and justice, and humanity's purpose on earth are not correct. These were ingrained from childhood within the context of religion, by family members who were religious, and while I'm not active in the church anymore, those old ideas don't just go away. The problem I am now having is, how to replace that with another philosophy that makes me believe that life is not a pointless waste of time. Because honestly, I could sit here and think long and hard about "meaning" and "worth", and if I am only able to do that within the context of this physical world, then I'm never going to come up with anything.

[cre8tiff]

...

When you are raised to believe in things like salvation and you are faced with a person like this, it is impossible to reconcile.

...

 

I argue there are a great many folks who believe in salvation, but still fit within the definition above.

[Kid Cid]

What this issue has forced me to come to terms with, is that whether or not a creator exists, certainly my old concepts of right and wrong, and justice, and humanity's purpose on earth are not correct. These were ingrained from childhood within the context of religion, by family members who were religious, and while I'm not active in the church anymore, those old ideas don't just go away. The problem I am now having is, how to replace that with another philosophy that makes me believe that life is not a pointless waste of time. Because honestly, I could sit here and think long and hard about "meaning" and "worth", and if I am only able to do that within the context of this physical world, then I'm never going to come up with anything.

Let me ask you this. Why does there have to be a point to life? I would argue that not have some type of superior being pulling the strings like some great marionetteer actually empowers me as I am forced to proved the meaning and context under which I live. That meaning may be all about my kids, that meaning may be to be as selfish a prick as I can or that meaning may be striving to come up with something that is a betterment to humanity as a whole. It also means that I an only I am responsible for the meaning my life takes and all the decisions and actions that go with it. That can be a very heavy burden for some.

[Ursa Majoris]

Let me ask you this. Why does there have to be a point to life? I would argue that not have some type of superior being pulling the strings like some great marionetteer actually empowers me as I am forced to proved the meaning and context under which I live. That meaning may be all about my kids, that meaning may be to be as selfish a prick as I can or that meaning may be striving to come up with something that is a betterment to humanity as a whole. It also means that I an only I am responsible for the meaning my life takes and all the decisions and actions that go with it. That can be a very heavy burden for some.

+1. Why this constant worry about "the point"? Why not just enjoy the life one has and screw the afterlife or whatever, since it is unknowable?

[matt770]

That meaning may be all about my kids

 

I hear this a lot from parents. Maybe that's my problem, I've never had the desire to procreate. Maybe I should put these thoughts aside and go raise a really great new human who will...go on to...repeat the process...for some reason that I don't understand and shouldn't worry about. Just what the world needs, more people.

 

Don't get me wrong, I respect parents a lot, especially the few good ones. It's an important job that should come with testing and licensing.

 

Bleh. Crappy rainy Monday and thinking too much again.

[detlef]

1) Bravo to Kid Cid's post

 

2) My SIL certainly fits the description and it's taken me about as long as I've been with my wife to finally convince her that not having her sister in her life is better than having her if it must be on her sister's unreal terms. Those terms being, play a constant shell game of trying to guess how not to piss her off, always somehow guess wrong, and deal with the nuclear melt-down that ensues.

 

This woman attracts total losers into her love-life, puts up with all their crap, and yet requires her family to constantly walk on egg shells. She also travels everywhere with a little bird she rescued (literally smuggling it on to airplanes with her and I have no idea how she pulls this off).

[Kid Cid]

I hear this a lot from parents. Maybe that's my problem, I've never had the desire to procreate. Maybe I should put these thoughts aside and go raise a really great new human who will...go on to...repeat the process...for some reason that I don't understand and shouldn't worry about. Just what the world needs, more people.

 

Don't get me wrong, I respect parents a lot, especially the few good ones. It's an important job that should come with testing and licensing.

 

Bleh. Crappy rainy Monday and thinking too much again.

FWIW, I do not and will not ever have kids. I just tossed that out because many people do find meaning in their children. Really though, there is no right or wrong answer. You provide the framework through which you view your life. The framework you provide may or may not contain gods, it may or may not contain family, it may or may not contain adventure, etc. The only thing for certain is that it is yours to do with as you please. The blessing and cure of free will.

[untateve]

I'd be curious to know if anyone here has had experiences with people like this.

 

I have experience with people like this. Aside from the religious/spiritual questions your raise, what questions do you have?

[millerx]

My ex brother-in-law fits the description to a T but I'm reasonably certain that he's never been diagnosed as such or if he has, nothing has ever been done about it. Unfortunately, he still has visitation rights for the niece and nephew. The kids are 8 and 6 now and starting to fight back about going to see him.

 

As to the other part of your question, I would ask that you take the superstitious out of the equation. Just for arguments sake, let's assume that there are no gods controlling any aspect of this place. Does that allow your brain to accept what it sees easier or does it create more difficulty? This is not about the question of whether gods exist or not. This is simply an exercise in logic. If there are no gods creating these "defective" people, what does that say about the world that we live in. Do you like it more or less? Can your brain come to grips with the existence of the "defectives" easier?

 

Personally, I think it is impossible to reconcile many of the things I've observed in the physical world with things being taught by the major religions. However, I do believe that you are taking the steps down the road to your own spiritual enlightenment.

Kid Cid gets it.

Edited March 16, 2010 by millerx

[Jimmy Neutron]

FWIW, I am a religious person that doesn't think God micro-manages everything like some folks believe. Flawed people are born into the world and while they cause a lot of harm to others, I don't think God will condem them if they were truly unable to be good people. I guess that's why it is said judgment is the Lord's alone.

[MTSuper7]

I'd be curious to know if anyone here has had experiences with people like this.

 

My sister is kind of like this... One thing I will add is that people like this usually get what they deserve. And from what I've been able to tell about life, your happiness is generally proportional to the quality of your relationships with others along with the extent to which your behavior is dictated by how you can help other people. Thinking about people like your neighbor is a counter-productive exercise. I actually tend to have sympathy for people that misguided. See, you view them as defective from birth, and though some may have mental disease, I think many are just people who've never formed meaningful relationships because they never learned how to or been exposed to dysfunctional relationships from early childhood). I mean, it's sad that a person's life is lived that way with no real shot at true happiness (how could there be?)...

Edited March 16, 2010 by MTSuper7

[polksalet]

FWIW, I am a religious person that doesn't think God micro-manages everything like some folks believe. Flawed people are born into the world and while they cause a lot of harm to others, I don't think God will condem them if they were truly unable to be good people. I guess that's why it is said judgment is the Lord's alone.

 

 

pretty much

 

I do not believe however that people are born flawed. I believe that the result of a person is choices * environment. I've learned to no longer deal with this type. If someone wants to be nice thats cool. If not I really don't care. Perhaps that means in a sociopath?

[detlef]

pretty much

 

I do not believe however that people are born flawed. I believe that the result of a person is choices * environment. I've learned to no longer deal with this type. If someone wants to be nice thats cool. If not I really don't care. Perhaps that means in a sociopath?

If someone can be born with very obvious mental issues like forms of mental retardation, why can they not be born with more subtle ones? It's all an issue of degrees. Some people are born smart, others stupid. Nobody questions that. I have no idea, from a brain chemistry level, what makes someone smart or not but one would have to guess that there's similar chemistry that makes one pre-disposed to being an a-hole or psychopath.

 

Not taking environment out of the equation, mind you. But I don't think you can say that nobody is born flawed.

[matt770]

pretty much

 

I do not believe however that people are born flawed. I believe that the result of a person is choices * environment. I've learned to no longer deal with this type. If someone wants to be nice thats cool. If not I really don't care. Perhaps that means in a sociopath?

 

I did a lot of reading on this subject when I was going through the neighbor issues. Psychopaths show their tendencies from early childhood, and good loving parents are irrelevant. They will compulsively steal, lie, cheat, show zero remorse, torture animals, etc, while their siblings could be model kids. They don't learn boundaries and compassion like everyone else. They use and abuse people to suit their own whims, and their only regret is the inconvenience of getting caught and punished. There is no effective treatment.

 

This is what fascinates me about them, and why it caused me to question the things I was taught as a kid. I assumed that "bad" people were that way because of lousy childhoods and could someday be turned around. Nope -- some people are just rotten from birth.

[matt770]

I have experience with people like this. Aside from the religious/spiritual questions your raise, what questions do you have?

 

Sorry just saw this.

 

Just interested to hear about what the person did, how it affected you, how you handled it.

[Ursa Majoris]

Sorry just saw this.

 

Just interested to hear about what the person did, how it affected you, how you handled it.

There's more than one. Many more. He works in the FL prison system, IIRC.

[TimC]

I did a lot of reading on this subject when I was going through the neighbor issues. Psychopaths show their tendencies from early childhood, and good loving parents are irrelevant. They will compulsively steal, lie, cheat, show zero remorse, torture animals, etc, while their siblings could be model kids. They don't learn boundaries and compassion like everyone else. They use and abuse people to suit their own whims, and their only regret is the inconvenience of getting caught and punished. There is no effective treatment.

 

This is what fascinates me about them, and why it caused me to question the things I was taught as a kid. I assumed that "bad" people were that way because of lousy childhoods and could someday be turned around. Nope -- some people are just rotten from birth.

 

I agree with all of this. Especially only regretting the inconvenience of being caught and punished. And yes, I also believe there are degrees of psycopaths. Not all are the fun serial killers. I'd wager that almost all are simply the people taking advantage of any opportunity or misfortune of others to benefit themselves.

[untateve]

There's more than one. Many more. He works in the FL prison system, IIRC.

 

I worked in the Florida prison system. I've been in my own forensic psychology practice for over 10 years now focusing on criminal and and family law. I interview individuals in jails on a regular basis.

[Savage Beatings]

When you are raised to believe in things like salvation and you are faced with a person like this, it is impossible to reconcile.

 

I would argue that as horrible as this human being is (or any human being for that matter), that there is something within her that still reflects the glory of God by virtue of being Created in His image. You might not be able to recognize that seed of something good within her, but that doesn't mean it is not there.

[polksalet]

If someone can be born with very obvious mental issues like forms of mental retardation, why can they not be born with more subtle ones? It's all an issue of degrees. Some people are born smart, others stupid. Nobody questions that. I have no idea, from a brain chemistry level, what makes someone smart or not but one would have to guess that there's similar chemistry that makes one pre-disposed to being an a-hole or psychopath.

 

Not taking environment out of the equation, mind you. But I don't think you can say that nobody is born flawed.

 

You might be correct, I dunno.

[Ursa Majoris]

I worked in the Florida prison system. I've been in my own forensic psychology practice for over 10 years now focusing on criminal and and family law. I interview individuals in jails on a regular basis.

Ah, my bad. I meant that you work inside prisons oftentimes.