This is why we can't ban guns...

[detlef]

exactly, but more people are speaking up against it than ever....

Really? Are you sure about that? Honestly, I hear more people complain about people allegedly trying to take away guns than I ever hear about people actually trying to take away guns. Gun advocates can talk all they want about the paranoia that drives those of us who aren't into them but it's nothing compared to the hysteria that leads to the notion that if any control at all is allowed, next thing you know, you won't be able to own one at all.

 

FWIW, just because allowing certain people who have obtained concealed weapons permits to carry guns has proven to lower crimes and not make our streets less safe, does not mean it should be open season, and that's my only issue. So, with that in mind, I do hold fast in my belief that more guns on the streets is likely not a good thing. Regardless, I think I've made myself rather clear that there's basically no reason to restrict them any further than they are and, I suppose, to loosen the restrictions in some places.

 

Also, listening to perch's daily routine with regard to his hand gun reminds me of those who talk about how safe pit-bulls are. That is, provided you're prepared to do everything just right, and never miss a beat, they're safe as can be. Maybe it's just me, but, having now lived 40+ years without the protection of a hand gun, I'm saying the trade off of not having to go through a specific routine each day to make sure nobody in my family doesn't blow their head off vs the possibility of maybe wishing I had a gun around is working out pretty well.

[Perchoutofwater]

Also, listening to perch's daily routine with regard to his hand gun reminds me of those who talk about how safe pit-bulls are. That is, provided you're prepared to do everything just right, and never miss a beat, they're safe as can be. Maybe it's just me, but, having now lived 40+ years without the protection of a hand gun, I'm saying the trade off of not having to go through a specific routine each day to make sure nobody in my family doesn't blow their head off vs the possibility of maybe wishing I had a gun around is working out pretty well.

 

I don't carry every day, if I don't I still unlock the safe at night.

[detlef]

I don't carry every day, if I don't I still unlock the safe at night.

Well, if you didn't, it would sort of undo the whole notion of owning to protect your family bit. Regardless, I still don't get the whole notion of inviting a specific set of procedures that you have to make sure you adhere to daily or risk very real and horrible consequences, all in the name of allegedly keeping your family safe.

 

Again, I'm reminded by the argument regarding pits. Someone mentioned that a pit who was a lovable family dog that often shared their bed when bat-poopy and bit their kid's face off. One of the things that was brought up against that story was that the family was careless to allow the pit to share their bed because it made the dog confused about it's place in the family. I guess that's not good enough for me. I want a dog who, provided it becomes confused about it's status in the family, chooses to manifest that confusion by pissing on the rug or something, not maiming a child.

 

This just doesn't seem all that different to me.

[Perchoutofwater]

Well, if you didn't, it would sort of undo the whole notion of owning to protect your family bit. Regardless, I still don't get the whole notion of inviting a specific set of procedures that you have to make sure you adhere to daily or risk very real and horrible consequences, all in the name of allegedly keeping your family safe.

 

Again, I'm reminded by the argument regarding pits. Someone mentioned that a pit who was a lovable family dog that often shared their bed when bat-poopy and bit their kid's face off. One of the things that was brought up against that story was that the family was careless to allow the pit to share their bed because it made the dog confused about it's place in the family. I guess that's not good enough for me. I want a dog who, provided it becomes confused about it's status in the family, chooses to manifest that confusion by pissing on the rug or something, not maiming a child.

 

This just doesn't seem all that different to me.

 

Well there is a couple of big differences. 1st guns don't just go off for no reason what so ever. 2, even if I forget to lock the safe, the safe is in a closet off of my bedroom. My kids are not allowed in my bedroom unless we are invite them in. 3. Even when they are invited into the bedroom they are not allowed in that closet. 4. The kids would have to load any gun they found, so it would have to be a deliberate act of disobedience, not an accident. 5. My kids know what causes guns to go off. 6. I'd like to think my my kids are more predictable and more obedient than a dog.

 

In order for an accident to happen I'd have to forget to lock the safe, my kids would have to willfully break two longstanding rules, and they would have to intentionally load the gun, and forget their training. That is a little bit different than accidentally getting attacked by a pit bull because a kid left the gate open. Your comparison of the two is ridiculous.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Perchoutofwater

[detlef]

Well there is a couple of big differences. 1st guns don't just go off for no reason what so ever. 2, even if I forget to lock the safe, the safe is in a closet off of my bedroom. My kids are not allowed in my bedroom unless we are invite them in. 3. Even when they are invited into the bedroom they are not allowed in that closet. 4. The kids would have to load any gun they found, so it would have to be a deliberate act of disobedience, not an accident. 5. My kids know what causes guns to go off. 6. I'd like to think my my kids are more predictable and more obedient than a dog.

 

In order for an accident to happen I'd have to forget to lock the safe, my kids would have to willfully break two longstanding rules, and they would have to intentionally load the gun, and forget their training. That is a little bit different than accidentally getting attacked by a pit bull because a kid left the gate open. Your comparison of the two is ridiculous.

FWIW, I agree that guns are safer than dogs for the reasons you give. Chiefly, a gun can't just decide to shoot someone.

 

Regardless, the fact remains that you have had to enact a very specific set of rules that must be obeyed or disaster will ensue. I'm going to take your word for it that your kids are "more predictable and obedient than a dog" but let's just pretend for a minute that some kids are not. Kids who may end up growing out of their stupidity and recklessness provided a fit of either doesn't result in them blowing their head off.

 

The only reason why I even bring this up is because gun advocates on this very message board go so far as accusing those who choose not to own guns of not caring about the safety of their families. And my point is simply that it's a trade-off. You have a gun that may or may not end up being able to protect you and your family (provided you can get to and load it in time and that your possession of said firearm doesn't escalate what would be a simple robbery into a gunfight that kills you or one of your family). Of course, you also have a weapon in your home that causes you to have to go through a daily routine to be sure that it doesn't end up killing someone. Sometimes you have to look at risk reward. And you guys always fixate on the risk of having bad guys break in but seem to discount the other risks. Or at least, assume that you've got them 100% under control.

[untateve]

I have two signs posted at the edge of my estate:

 

Home Owner Does Not Own or Possess Any Firearms

 

and

 

Thieves Are Puslies

 

Each night, I don my loin cloth and grease my body up with olive oil. I am a killing machine.

And each night, I wait. Quietly, patiently, and calmly...I wait.

[Jimmy Neutron]

problem is, I'd bet 50+% of gun owners lack the sophistication and responsibility, and it puts the rest of the population at risk.

 

I also think every gun owner should be required to make it known they keep guns in their home. The fact that any of my kids could be playing at a friend's home, and me not knowing their house has weapons in it, is troubling.

 

50%? As the anti's so frequently tout, there are some 65 million handguns (more than 1 for every 5 people (boy are we under-armed)) floating around this country - just handguns. If half of their owners were irresponsible, we'd have more violence on our streets than any war every produced. Fact is, much of the reported gun violence is gang-bangers knocking each other off. Fear about guns is way overblown.

 

There are 3-4 times as many long guns as handguns. If guns were half as dangerous to society as some believed, we'd be on some endangerd culture list.

 

As far as where your kids play - that's sorta your job as a parent investigate. If you are afraid of guns, it's probably a good question to ask. Personally, I don't know a gun owner that would lie about it.

[Jimmy Neutron]

I would be in favor of having people complete a safety course before buying a gun that can be completed before the background check comes back. While I own multiple guns, and I dont see why someone would feel the need to be "packing heat" 24-7, I think a mandatory safety course would do wonders for dispelling negative perceptions about gun ownership and usage.

 

That would be difficult - background checks in many states take 3-5 minutes. The course could consist of, "That's the trigger and that's the dangerous end." Perfect.

[Jimmy Neutron]

As for registration, read up on Canada's effort trying to register guns up there. Any effort here would make that program look spectacularly successful. Many of us :gun: go to great lengths to erase paper trails as a simple precaution against using 4473s to track down guns/owners.

 

Moving to CA has me just pissed on this whole gun issue more than usual.

[Perchoutofwater]

50%? As the anti's so frequently tout, there are some 65 million handguns (more than 1 for every 5 people (boy are we under-armed)) floating around this country - just handguns. If half of their owners were irresponsible, we'd have more violence on our streets than any war every produced. Fact is, much of the reported gun violence is gang-bangers knocking each other off. Fear about guns is way overblown.

 

There are 3-4 times as many long guns as handguns. If guns were half as dangerous to society as some believed, we'd be on some endangerd culture list.

 

As far as where your kids play - that's sorta your job as a parent investigate. If you are afraid of guns, it's probably a good question to ask. Personally, I don't know a gun owner that would lie about it.

 

I don't know a gun owner that wouldn't tell you the make and model of every fire arm in their safe along with a story they have based on shooting that particular fire arm, as long as you don't work for the federal government.

[Perchoutofwater]

As for registration, read up on Canada's effort trying to register guns up there. Any effort here would make that program look spectacularly successful. Many of us :gun: go to great lengths to erase paper trails as a simple precaution against using 4473s to track down guns/owners.

 

Moving to CA has me just pissed on this whole gun issue more than usual.

 

True that! The government knows about 3 of my 12 guns. I try like hell to buy what I want from private individuals rather than from gun dealers.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

True that! The government knows about 3 of my 12 guns. I try like hell to buy what I want from private individuals rather than from gun dealers.

If I had any guns, which I don't, the govt. would'nt know about them.

[i_am_the_swammi]

If I had any guns, which I don't, the govt. would'nt know about them.

 

Interesting comment.

 

What other kinds of things do people buy that they hope the government doesn't know about?

[Big John]

If I had any guns, which I don't, the govt. would'nt know about them.

Like this?

[TimC]

IEach night, I don my loin cloth and grease my body up with olive oil. I am a killing machine.

And each night, I wait. Quietly, patiently, and calmly...I wait.

 

:hawt: E-mail me those pics. I wait.

[Perchoutofwater]

Interesting comment.

 

What other kinds of things do people buy that they hope the government doesn't know about?

 

Gold, silver, and anything else the government might at some future date see fit to confiscate.

[TimC]

Interesting comment.

 

What other kinds of things do people buy that they hope the government doesn't know about?

 

Stocks and porn.

[Caveman_Nick]

True that! The government knows about 3 of my 12 guns. I try like hell to buy what I want from private individuals rather than from gun dealers.

 

Er, isn't there paperwork you need to file when you buy privately, and if you do not file it then you can be in some serious doodoo?

 

Registration is a touchy subject for sure, but if you want to skirt those laws you should be ready to pay any penalties that come up because of it.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Caveman_Nick

[Perchoutofwater]

Er, isn't there paperwork you need to file when you buy privately, and if you do not file it then you can be in some serious doodoo?

 

Registration is a touchy subject for sure, but if you want to skirt those laws you should be ready to pay any penalties that come up because of it.

 

It depends on what state you live in. If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states force individual sellers to sell through dealers.

[Ursa Majoris]

Interesting thread. I've said before that gun limits beyond what we have now (never mind gun confiscation) are vote losers because the NRA will blow anything up into some hysterical nonsense involving gun owners being marched off to concentration camps. There are two hundred million guns in our nation and confiscating that lot is beyond any kind of practicality.

 

The bottom line is that registration and transfer rules are about as far as we are likely to get in terms of control (and to be honest, I don't see why we should want more than that). The 2nd Amendment is clear enough (though I do think it needs to be seen in the context it was written, pre-machinegun, pre-bazooka and pre-flamethrower, for instance).

[Jimmy Neutron]

Er, isn't there paperwork you need to file when you buy privately, and if you do not file it then you can be in some serious doodoo?

 

Not in the cool states.

 

(though I do think it needs to be seen in the context it was written, pre-machinegun, pre-bazooka and pre-flamethrower, for instance).

 

[westvirginia]

Er, isn't there paperwork you need to file when you buy privately, and if you do not file it then you can be in some serious doodoo?

 

Registration is a touchy subject for sure, but if you want to skirt those laws you should be ready to pay any penalties that come up because of it.

 

I've lived in two states and both allow private party transfers with no gov't notification and no paperwork. As has been said - I do my damndest to buy from private sellers whenever possible.

 

And for those who think the majority of gun owners are neanderthal rednecks - think about this sample here. You might not like DMD, Perch, myself, or Jimmy Neutron, but you damn sure know we're all educated. Educated enough to meet this issue with logic and facts that you have to try to use emotion and anecdote to get around. It isn't "Bubba" out there with all these guns in his trailer. It's educated, motivated people. People who've thought long and hard enough about political issues to be able to at least argue intelligently (most of the time anyway ) about this issue and many others.

 

Because it's a political loser, things do seem to be getting better on the issue, rather than worse. I would suggest politicians who would take the guns really need to think about the people who have them.

 

Oh, and as a rule, unless the cop is sniper/swat trained, I'd put myself, Perch or Jimmy up against most. People think the cops are well trained in the use of firearms, but they're really not.

[Perchoutofwater]

Oh, and as a rule, unless the cop is sniper/swat trained, I'd put myself, Perch or Jimmy up against most. People think the cops are well trained in the use of firearms, but they're really not.

 

We probably each shoot 10-20 times as many rounds as the average cop over the course of a year. There have been days where I've shot 5 times as many rounds as a typical cop will in an entire year.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Perchoutofwater

[SEC=UGA]

We probably each shoot 10-20 times as many rounds as the average cop over the course of a year. There have been days where I've shot 5 times as many rounds as a typical cop will in an entire year.

 

 

If I could find ammo, I would...

[Perchoutofwater]

If I could find ammo, I would...

 

I've got a pretty good stockpile right now, but 6 or 7 months ago I was going by Academy, Gander, and my local gun shop once every week or two just to see if they had anything I could pick up.