The Fab Five

[Brentastic]

This is such a well written response by Hill, I felt it worth posting. I haven't seen the ESPN film yet either but look forward to it. On a sidenote, there's also a documentary on HBO about the Runnin' Rebels that I have dvr'd and waiting to watch:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/1...-to-jalen-rose/

 

“The Fab Five,” an ESPN film about the Michigan basketball careers of Jalen Rose, Juwan Howard, Chris Webber, Jimmy King and Ray Jackson from 1991 to 1993, was broadcast for the first time Sunday night. In the show, Rose, the show’s executive producer, stated that Duke recruited only black players he considered to be “Uncle Toms.” Grant Hill, a player on the Duke team that beat Michigan in the 1992 Final Four, reflected on Rose’s comments.

 

I am a fan, friend and longtime competitor of the Fab Five. I have competed against Jalen Rose and Chris Webber since the age of 13. At Michigan, the Fab Five represented a cultural phenomenon that impacted the country in a permanent and positive way. The very idea of the Fab Five elicited pride and promise in much the same way the Georgetown teams did in the mid-1980s when I was in high school and idolized them. Their journey from youthful icons to successful men today is a road map for so many young, black men (and women) who saw their journey through the powerful documentary, “The Fab Five.”

 

It was a sad and somewhat pathetic turn of events, therefore, to see friends narrating this interesting documentary about their moment in time and calling me a bitch and worse, calling all black players at Duke “Uncle Toms” and, to some degree, disparaging my parents for their education, work ethic and commitment to each other and to me. I should have guessed there was something regrettable in the documentary when I received a Twitter apology from Jalen before its premiere. I am aware Jalen has gone to some length to explain his remarks about my family in numerous interviews, so I believe he has some admiration for them.

 

In his garbled but sweeping comment that Duke recruits only “black players that were ‘Uncle Toms,’ ” Jalen seems to change the usual meaning of those very vitriolic words into his own meaning, i.e., blacks from two-parent, middle-class families. He leaves us all guessing exactly what he believes today.

 

I am beyond fortunate to have two parents who are still working well into their 60s. They received great educations and use them every day. My parents taught me a personal ethic I try to live by and pass on to my children.

 

I come from a strong legacy of black Americans. My namesake, Henry Hill, my father’s father, was a day laborer in Baltimore. He could not read or write until he was taught to do so by my grandmother. His first present to my dad was a set of encyclopedias, which I now have. He wanted his only child, my father, to have a good education, so he made numerous sacrifices to see that he got an education, including attending Yale.

 

This is part of our great tradition as black Americans. We aspire for the best or better for our children and work hard to make that happen for them. Jalen’s mother is part of our great black tradition and made the same sacrifices for him.

 

My teammates at Duke — all of them, black and white — were a band of brothers who came together to play at the highest level for the best coach in basketball. I know most of the black players who preceded and followed me at Duke. They all contribute to our tradition of excellence on the court.

 

It is insulting and ignorant to suggest that men like Johnny Dawkins (coach at Stanford), Tommy Amaker (coach at Harvard), Billy King (general manager of the Nets), Tony Lang (coach of the Mitsubishi Diamond Dolphins in Japan), Thomas Hill (small-business owner in Texas), Jeff Capel (former coach at Oklahoma and Virginia Commonwealth), Kenny Blakeney (assistant coach at Harvard), Jay Williams (ESPN analyst), Shane Battier (Memphis Grizzlies) and Chris Duhon (Orlando Magic) ever sold out their race.

 

To hint that those who grew up in a household with a mother and father are somehow less black than those who did not is beyond ridiculous. All of us are extremely proud of the current Duke team, especially Nolan Smith. He was raised by his mother, plays in memory of his late father and carries himself with the pride and confidence that they instilled in him.

 

The sacrifice, the effort, the education and the friendships I experienced in my four years are cherished. The many Duke graduates I have met around the world are also my “family,” and they are a special group of people. A good education is a privilege.

 

Just as Jalen has founded a charter school in Michigan, we are expected to use our education to help others, to improve life for those who need our assistance and to use the excellent education we have received to better the world.

 

A highlight of my time at Duke was getting to know the great John Hope Franklin, John B. Duke Professor of History and the leading scholar of the last century on the total history of African-Americans in this country. His insights and perspectives contributed significantly to my overall development and helped me understand myself, my forefathers and my place in the world.

 

Ad ingenium faciendum, toward the building of character, is a phrase I recently heard. To me, it is the essence of an educational experience. Struggling, succeeding, trying again and having fun within a nurturing but competitive environment built character in all of us, including every black graduate of Duke.

 

My mother always says, “You can live without Chaucer and you can live without calculus, but you cannot make it in the wide, wide world without common sense.” As we get older, we understand the importance of these words. Adulthood is nothing but a series of choices: you can say yes or no, but you cannot avoid saying one or the other. In the end, those who are successful are those who adjust and adapt to the decisions they have made and make the best of them.

 

I caution my fabulous five friends to avoid stereotyping me and others they do not know in much the same way so many people stereotyped them back then for their appearance and swagger. I wish for you the restoration of the bond that made you friends, brothers and icons.

 

I am proud of my family. I am proud of my Duke championships and all my Duke teammates. And, I am proud I never lost a game against the Fab Five.

 

Grant Henry Hill

Phoenix Suns

Duke ‘94

 

.

[Azazello1313]

ouch. jalen got pwn3d. halfway through that letter, chris webber tried to call a timeout.

[Brentastic]

ouch. jalen got pwn3d. halfway through that letter, chris webber tried to call a timeout.

 

That's what he gets for messing with an uncle tom

[Azazello1313]

here's a video of jalen kinda defending what he said

 

he has a point about duke only going after certain kinds of kids, and his not being one of them. the line about how duke would recruit his kids, but they wouldn't recruit him was pretty good. the whole rich kids from private schools versus inner city public schoolkids thing is an interesting aspect to the fab-five story in relation to duke. but he seems utterly oblivious the problem most people had with what he said, which was calling black kids from good families "uncle toms". that's some bullchit. he didn't really back off from that at all, and he clearly should have.

[whomper]

And, I am proud I never lost a game against the Fab Five.

 

[muck]

Hill's not still playing, is he? Or is he in the front office / coaching for the Suns?

 

...I'm so out of the loop on the NBA...

[Dutch Oven]

Hill's not still playing, is he? Or is he in the front office / coaching for the Suns?

 

...I'm so out of the loop on the NBA...

 

Still playing for Phoenix and heathier the last three years than he has probably been in his career.

 

Man, I hate Dook, but it's hard to dislike Hill. Exteremely intelligent and well spoken. If he didn't have all of those inuries, he would have been a top fifty all-time player, IMO.

[Square]

Hill's not still playing, is he?

Pretty sure he still is.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

I wonder what was Rose's opinion of Chris Webber prior to being on the same team at U of M? Webber went to a pretty expensive private high school (currently 25k/yr).

[wiegie]

I wonder what was Rose's opinion of Chris Webber prior to being on the same team at U of M? Webber went to a pretty expensive private high school (currently 25k/yr).

If I understand Rose's argument correctly, he reserves the "Uncle Tom" label for the black players that actually chose to go to Duke. Now the question is: Is Rose calling those players "Uncle Toms" because they came from middle/upper class families or is he calling them Uncle Toms for some other reason. I think the answer is the latter. As I see it, Rose is mad at Duke for not recruiting kids like him (and Rose was a honor roll student in high school) and he is mad at black players who chose to go to Duke even though Duke wouldn't recruit black kids who didn't fit the "middle to upper class nuclear black family" model even if they might have been decent and intelligent kids. Hence, Rose is arguing that the black kids who went to Duke were supporting a framework that discriminated against lower-class black kids.

 

That's just how I see it. (And, yes, I do feel qualified to speak on Rose's behalf because when I was growing up we too had a big broken tv on the floor with a smaller working tv on top of it.)

[Timmypg]

Rose was/is mad because Duke wants kids to go to class. He even joked that Michigan kept 2 white kids on the roster to keep the team GPA up.

[wildcat2334]

If I understand Rose's argument correctly, he reserves the "Uncle Tom" label for the black players that actually chose to go to Duke. Now the question is: Is Rose calling those players "Uncle Toms" because they came from middle/upper class families or is he calling them Uncle Toms for some other reason. I think the answer is the latter. As I see it, Rose is mad at Duke for not recruiting kids like him (and Rose was a honor roll student in high school) and he is mad at black players who chose to go to Duke even though Duke wouldn't recruit black kids who didn't fit the "middle to upper class nuclear black family" model even if they might have been decent and intelligent kids. Hence, Rose is arguing that the black kids who went to Duke were supporting a framework that discriminated against lower-class black kids.

 

That's just how I see it. (And, yes, I do feel qualified to speak on Rose's behalf because when I was growing up we too had a big broken tv on the floor with a smaller working tv on top of it.)

 

I love Jalen, he is smart, well-spoken dude. He didn't back off, and he said it when he was a kid- and he is right. Duke doesn't recruit questionable kids from the inner city for the most part - just a fact. Nothing wrong with a private school wanting to recruit good kids from solid backgrounds, black or white, it is what it is. Grant Hill is a physical freak, he and Nash doing their thing in the NBA when they should be way past their prime - clean living and training in the desert.

 

Uncle Tom is a poor choice of words that offends some peeps, understandable but Rose is a smart, educated brotha that ended up going to Mich himself, not too shabby.

 

not a big deal IMO - and as a white kid growing up in the burbs I fn hated Dook then and still do.

[Jackass]

I wonder what was Rose's opinion of Chris Webber prior to being on the same team at U of M? Webber went to a pretty expensive private high school (currently 25k/yr).

 

But who paid for it?

[Azazello1313]

mad at black players who chose to go to Duke even though Duke wouldn't recruit black kids who didn't fit the "middle to upper class nuclear black family" model even if they might have been decent and intelligent kids. Hence, Rose is arguing that the black kids who went to Duke were supporting a framework that discriminated against lower-class black kids.

 

I hope this idiocy is tongue-in-cheek. a kid with good grades and a good family who happens to be black has to go to a schit school or else he's a sellout?

[wiegie]

I hope this idiocy is tongue-in-cheek. a kid with good grades and a good family who happens to be black has to go to a schit school or else he's a sellout?

Are you obtuse or merely dense?

 

As I see it, Rose has no problems with black kids going to good schools (case in point, Michigan is a better school than Duke).

 

His problem with Duke is not that it is a good school, it is that Duke pretty much refused to recruit black kids unless they fit a certain profile--and his subsequent problem with black kids who did go to Duke is that they, at least implicitly, supported Duke's recruiting strategy.

 

Think about it from Rose's point of view--he was probably pissed because he thought that Duke didn't recruit him because he didn't fit a certain "type" that Duke was looking for even though he had been an honor student in high school and was a good ball player. So he is going to vent out at Duke and at the players he thinks supported Duke's agenda (whether that agenda was/is real or was merely a figment of Rose's imagination). Rose then carries it one step further and basically hints that Duke discriminated against poor black kids and that the black players who went to Duke were willing co-conspirators in this discrimination.

 

Now, you can argue all you want whether Rose was right or wrong in his argument, but I think it does him a gross disservice to portray his argument as a simple-minded one that states that middle/upper-class black kids who seek a good education are Uncle Toms.

[bushwacked]

ouch. Az got pwn3d. halfway through the last post, I tried to call a timeout.

[Azazello1313]

Think about it from Rose's point of view--he was probably pissed because he thought that Duke didn't recruit him because he didn't fit a certain "type" that Duke was looking for even though he had been an honor student in high school and was a good ball player. So he is going to vent out at Duke and at the players he thinks supported Duke's agenda (whether that agenda was/is real or was merely a figment of Rose's imagination). Rose then carries it one step further and basically hints that Duke discriminated against poor black kids and that the black players who went to Duke were willing co-conspirators in this discrimination.

 

Now, you can argue all you want whether Rose was right or wrong in his argument, but I think it does him a gross disservice to portray his argument as a simple-minded one that states that middle/upper-class black kids who seek a good education are Uncle Toms.

 

wiegie, keepin it real.

 

do you think duke cares whether their kids are upper-middle class, or are they just looking for kids who do well academically as well as athletically? maybe duke has a "mold", and that mold includes kids with good grades, stable home lives, no questionable associations, etc. that mold seems to have been working for them alright. to imply that that kind of "discrimination" is racist is pretty f'ing weak. but to say that black kids who HAVE good grades and stable character and find duke's program attractive are uncle Toms? well, "simple-minded" is about the most charitable thing I can think of to say about that vile little dagger.

[wiegie]

the problem most people had with what he said, which was calling black kids from good families "uncle toms". that's some bullchit.

I hope this idiocy is tongue-in-cheek. a kid with good grades and a good family who happens to be black has to go to a schit school or else he's a sellout?

do you think duke cares whether their kids are upper-middle class, or are they just looking for kids who do well academically as well as athletically? maybe duke has a "mold", and that mold includes kids with good grades, stable home lives, no questionable associations, etc. that mold seems to have been working for them alright. to imply that that kind of "discrimination" is racist is pretty f'ing weak. but to say that black kids who HAVE good grades and stable character and find duke's program attractive are uncle Toms? well, "simple-minded" is about the most charitable thing I can think of to say about that vile little dagger.

As I said in my posts, you don't have to agree with Rose's assessment of Duke or its players.

 

My point was that you were wrong to say that Rose was arguing that "black kids from good families (are) 'Uncle Toms'" or that " a kid with good grades and a good family who happens to be black has to go to a schit school or else he's a sellout"

 

Given that you have changed your argument to focus on the simple-mindedness of Rose's argument as I have presented it, I take it that you are therefore agreeing with me that your previous characterizations of Rose's argument were wrong (or, shall we say, "simple-minded"?).

[Caveman_Nick]

Are you obtuse or merely dense?

 

As I see it, Rose has no problems with black kids going to good schools (case in point, Michigan is a better school than Duke).

 

His problem with Duke is not that it is a good school, it is that Duke pretty much refused to recruit black kids unless they fit a certain profile--and his subsequent problem with black kids who did go to Duke is that they, at least implicitly, supported Duke's recruiting strategy.

 

Think about it from Rose's point of view--he was probably pissed because he thought that Duke didn't recruit him because he didn't fit a certain "type" that Duke was looking for even though he had been an honor student in high school and was a good ball player. So he is going to vent out at Duke and at the players he thinks supported Duke's agenda (whether that agenda was/is real or was merely a figment of Rose's imagination). Rose then carries it one step further and basically hints that Duke discriminated against poor black kids and that the black players who went to Duke were willing co-conspirators in this discrimination.

 

Now, you can argue all you want whether Rose was right or wrong in his argument, but I think it does him a gross disservice to portray his argument as a simple-minded one that states that middle/upper-class black kids who seek a good education are Uncle Toms.

 

I agree with Wiegie. People are not taking the statement in context.

 

I can't say if Rose is right or wrong. I don't know enough about Duke's recruiting. I do know that Boston College has academic standards that they hold to in a fairly strict fashion. I don't see what's wrong with that. Notre Dame does the same. So Duke is not the only college with standards for it's student athletes.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Caveman_Nick

[billay]

I think Rose's point is that if you're an inner city, african american kid, coming from a single parent household of limited financial means, Duke won't recruit you regardless of how good of a person, student or basketball player you are. Given that Duke is an ivory tower sitting in the middle of Durham, NC, "the harlem of the south," I think the characterization that Duke represents a privileged class is all the more striking.

Edited March 17, 2011 by billay

[Dutch Oven]

Rose's quote yesterday, "Coach K wouldn't recruit me, but he would recruit my kids." Truth.

[The Holy Roller]

I think Rose's point is that if you're an inner city, african american kid, coming from a single parent household of limited financial means, Duke won't recruit you regardless of how good of a person, student or basketball player you are. Given that Duke is an ivory tower sitting in the middle of Durham, NC, "the harlem of the south," I think the characterization that Duke represents a privileged class is all the more striking.

 

Your avi disqualifies you from making any objective observations.

[billay]

Your avi disqualifies you from making any objective observations.

It's true, I'm biased.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

I think the Fab 5 should be happy that ESPN even wants to do a documentary about them. These shows are usually reserved for a team that has won SOMETHING.

Edited March 18, 2011 by HowboutthemCowboys

[electricrelish]

I think the Fab 5 should be happy that ESPN even wants to do a documentary about them. These shows are usually reserved for a team that has won SOMETHING.

 

Hear, hear. They lost. Weber didn't bother to study the rulebook. He'll always be remembered for being a dumbass.