Cunning Runt Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 It's their league as much as it is yours! Geez, that's patently obvious to almost everyone but you here, I think. When you are telling them that they can quit their own league if they don't like your decision, it's exactly telling them to piss off. Their money and contribution is every bit as important to the league as yours, and they have just as equal a right to run their team as you do yours. That you won't admit that you could possibly make a mistake that costs someone - due only to your biases and judgment and nothing more, since you can't possibly know the outcome of future events, goes directly to the root of the issue. I know you're a smart and thoughtful person, and as such I'm wondering how you can willfully overlook this kind of possibility and simply deny it could happen, and if it did happen that you would have no responsibility for it. Now, I've re-read everyone of your posts, and that is precisely your position. Show me something here that is contrary to that. I'm done. How you manage to make the leaps you make are beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I have read everything you have had to say carefully. There is one thing you have not touched upon yet, and that is how often this has happened. Could you share that fact with us. I'm thinking if it is the exception rather than the rule that there is no reason to even discuss the principle of the matter. That's actually pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 That's actually pretty good. why didn't you answer the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 why didn't you answer the question? You're kidding right? I'm pretty sure his post was intended as sarcasm given the fact that he was replying to my maybe 5th post in the thread where I specifically said it's happened maybe 2-3 times in 15 years. Seriously, what I am saying that you people aren't understanding? I get that you don't agree, but the blatant twisting of words and questioning as a result of this disagreement is curious to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 You're kidding right? I'm pretty sure his post was intended as sarcasm given the fact that he was replying to my maybe 5th post in the thread where I specifically said it's happened maybe 2-3 times in 15 years. Seriously, what I am saying that you people aren't understanding? I get that you don't agree, but the blatant twisting of words and questioning as a result of this disagreement is curious to me. 23 times in 15 years seems like a lot to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 23 times in 15 years seems like a lot to me. And see.... that was good too...... kind of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Pilgrim Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I am no fan of the line of thinking that only allows a trade to be reversed/stopped/overturned if you can prove collusion, mainly because collusion would simply be difficult, if not impossible to prove. It sounds better in theory than reality (to me, anyway). Instead, my preference is to have a league commissioner, whose integrity is not questioned, that may occasionally determine that a trade is too egregious to the league, either because several league members make an issue or the commissioner determines that on his own. There is a certain amount of duty by this commissioner to protect all the league members and the yearly investment they made in joining the league. Some leagues are expensive, and quite a bit of money is at stake. Obviously, the tough question is how egregious does a trade need to be in order for an honest commish to closely review since everybody perceives value differently. Making specific parameters or guidelines seems impossible, but if a league is in an uproar, then that trade should be reviewed by the commish, and his judgement will be the final arbiter. I don't mean that every time some owner complains about a trade either. A little bit of whining and crying is to be expected, even with good solid trades that help both sides. But I have joined leagues throughout the years that have utilized both systems. And I will continue to join leagues regardless of which method is used. I have my preference, and neither method is perfect to me. So....now on to the specifics of some trades that have shown up on this board. I'll tackle the easy one first. McFadden and Rice for Felix Jones. This trade is obviously egregious and harmful to the league at this time (or almost anytime). I would give it about 1 second of thought before I would overturn. Now for the toughie....Boldin for R. White after 3 weeks into the season. This trade smells pretty bad based on my knowledge. Certainly,10 minutes after the draft, or in week 1, this trade is easily overturnable. This is the top WR (or 2nd/3rd rated WR) in every ranking system involving PPR. Even after the 3rd week (and the possibility that R White has some injury issue), I would still consider overturning this trade. I don't think it is fair to the other teams in the league that all of a sudden an owner who drafted R White in the first round or early second would suddenly consider Boldin to be fair value for a late 1st round pick. After close scrutiny to determine whether there was deeper reason to consider, I would certainly consider overturning this trade too. I know I just pissed off the Boldin owner (and the Felix Jones owner even more so), but I would believe that the integrity of the league is a higher calling for the commish. Obviously, it is possible that R White breaks his leg next week (or Boldin has his career year while R White struggles mightily), and I have just screwed the R White owner. I got it. But that is what makes the decision so difficult for an honest commish. This whole issue question of overturning trades is not for the squeemish. Overturning a trade without proof of collusion (and I have never seen that proven) should rarely be done by a commish, but I do believe it should be occasionally done, even without proof of collusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 1. McFadden and Rice for Felix Jones. 2. Boldin for R. White the 1st trade is junk. period....I would actually veto that crap....and I don't like holding hands, but that is really bad. the 2nd one is not a trade I would do, but I wouldn't overturn that....I am not a nazi commish and if I veto'd that trade, I would feel like one... maybe someone feels that White is going to have a rough year and that Boldin is going to get hot soon....both are quality players and personal rankings are still just opinion....so there is no reason to veto that crap trade, I would just call said owner an idiot.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 23 times in 15 years seems like a lot to me. You missed the hyphen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 You missed the hyphen. I interpreted the hyphen existentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I am 100 percent certain that if you were in a league I commished, you'd feel the same despite your weak arguments. I'm 100% certain I would never play in a league you commished, or with a commish like you. I don't want my FF success or failure determined by an arbitrary decree of what is or is not fair based solely on your judgment of player value. And even if you hadn't taken an action in 10 years, I would never play under those stipulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanTheMan_5 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I'm 100% certain that this thread went from a conversation to a bitchfest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loaf Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I'm 100% certain that this thread went from a conversation to a bitchfest. ahhh, young Padawan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) I'm 100% certain I would never play in a league you commished, or with a commish like you. I don't want my FF success or failure determined by an arbitrary decree of what is or is not fair based solely on your judgment of player value. And even if you hadn't taken an action in 10 years, I would never play under those stipulations. Well, I'm 100 percent certain I'm smarter and better than you at everything so you would do what I told you to do and you'd happily accept it. And no... I'm not kidding. I'd get over on you every single time and you'd thank me for it. Edited October 2, 2011 by Cunning Runt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Well, I'm 100 percent certain I'm smarter and better than you at everything so you would do what told I you to do and you'd happily accept it. And no... I'm not kidding. I'd get over on you every single time and you'd thank me for it. "Say my name! Say my name!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Is sarcastic irony the same as ironic sarcasm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) You mentioned very competative owners. Does that mean that they know what they are doing? If so why not let them make their own mistakes. Does it mean that they really, really want to win? Well - then I can see why they would want to overturn trades. You mentioned 2-3 times in fifteen years - but you also mentioned that the Boldin for White trade - if brought to you - would be over turned. One thing you didn't mention though is how you handle trades that YOU make as a league owner. Owners come to you when a bad trade is made. No specific number, because that's not how it works. They tell you your trade is bad and leave you to evaluated it. It doesn't get overturned, because that is not how it works. It has to go through you first You know why you made the trade despite other people disagreeing with it (not unlike how an owner might have his reasons for dealing Roddy for Boldin - despite other people disagreeing with it) and what happens next? Do you let your trade go because you understand it and agree with it? I don't understand this part and am looking for some tips on how to walk this line. I ask this because in another post when "renting playrs" was brought up you said that you saw no problem with it at all. You said so long as there wasn't a rule against it that it is perfectly okay to do something. So, I am wondering what rule you have in place regarding you making a trade others don't like? Edited October 2, 2011 by Duchess Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) You mentioned very competative owners. Does that mean that they know what they are doing? If so why not let them make their own mistakes. Does it mean that they really, really want to win? Well - then I can see why they would want to overturn trades. You mentioned 2-3 times in fifteen years - but you also mentioned that the Boldin for White trade - if brought to you - would be over turned. One thing you didn't mention though is how you handle trades that YOU make as a league owner. Owners come to you when a bad trade is made. No specific number, because that's not how it works. They tell you your trade is bad and leave you to evaluated it. It doesn't get overturned, because that is not how it works. It has to go through you first You know why you made the trade despite other people disagreeing with it (not unlike how an owner might have his reasons for dealing Roddy for Boldin - despite other people disagreeing with it) and what happens next? Do you let your trade go because you understand it and agree with it? I don't understand this part and am looking for some tips on how to walk this line. I ask this because in another post when "renting playrs" was brought up you said that you saw no problem with it at all. You said so long as there wasn't a rule against it that it is perfectly okay to do something. So, I am wondering what rule you have in place regarding you making a trade others don't like? THE ENTIRE GIST OF MY POINT IS THAT THERE ARE TRADES THAT CAN/SHOULD BE OVERTURNED. There has never been a trade I've been involved in that comes even close to being scrutinized, so your question is falling on deaf ears. No rule - except for the "dumb ass trade" rule that affects everyone. And since I KNOW I'm not that, it's a non-issue where I'm concerned. This whole thread is cracking me up actually. Y'all want me to start in on how I feel about injuries if I have that player's' back up? Do ya? That's another one near and dear to my heart. Edited October 2, 2011 by Cunning Runt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favre4ever Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I think we've all gotten a trade offer that we couldn't take fast enough because we were afraid the guy would take it down and usually they aren't the most fair deals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) Well, I'm 100 percent certain I'm smarter and better than you at everything so you would do what I told you to do and you'd happily accept it. And no... I'm not kidding. I'd get over on you every single time and you'd thank me for it. Well, maybe you are as knowledgeable as you seem to think you are. But that doesn't preclude my wanting to make my own decisions, despite your incredible self-proclaimed brilliance. Edited October 2, 2011 by Bronco Billy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) I'm done. How you manage to make the leaps you make are beyond me. That's what Billy does. Ignore him. Edited October 2, 2011 by SNOWBOUND33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 That's what Billy does. Ignore him. As someone who frequently disagrees with BB, he is spot on here and not misrepresenting anyone.... If you wanna babysit your league and make decisions according to your league's biases (which any veto or league vote is going to absolutely be biased), then go for it... But most of us want to be in a league where everyone is treated like adults and can make decisions for themselves, damn what others think about it. It ain't your team to manage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 As someone who frequently disagrees with BB, he is spot on here and not misrepresenting anyone.... If you wanna babysit your league and make decisions according to your league's biases (which any veto or league vote is going to absolutely be biased), then go for it... But most of us want to be in a league where everyone is treated like adults and can make decisions for themselves, damn what others think about it. It ain't your team to manage. I was just browsing through this thread and saw that post. Not supporting anyone here, just agreeing with a point about Billy....Sometimes he acts like an infant and then calls you one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I was just browsing through this thread and saw that post. Not supporting anyone here, just agreeing with a point about Billy....Sometimes he acts like an infant and then calls you one. Just curious, did you have to custom order the saddle you use to ride BB's dick, or is that an item kept in sales inventory where you are from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Just curious, did you have to custom order the saddle you use to ride BB's dick, or is that an item kept in sales inventory where you are from? You're an idiot. I have seen some really stupid posts from you lately and decided to let them go as BB is the one I have a beef with because he gets personal when he disagrees with someone. Now you've topped him. Mind your own business moran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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