Raiders fake FG TD score

[detlef]

It depends on if the individual gets kick return yardage or TDs... If yes, then you shouldn't double-dip by awarding it to the D/ST too.

Why not?

[delusions of grandeur]

But I wonder, if you play the D/ST and don't award points for kickoff/pun return TDs to the D/ST category, then what special teams scoring is there?

It pretty much is primarily true defensive scoring when you take the returns out (though as I said, we do double dip on return TDs in one league, just because they're that rare).

 

But other than blocked kicks, yes, it pretty much reduces it to pretty much all defensive scoring, which I absolutely don't think is a bad thing, when used in conjunction with rewarding return guys to give them some value too.

[delusions of grandeur]

Why not?

Because it's not two different actions like pass/catch. Read my response to you on the last page for my further reasoning, but it creates an unnecessary preference to pick up both the D and return guy just to get 12+ points (and it can really be an absurd swing with return yardage double-dipped too)for the same action that leads to a TD.

[detlef]

Because it's not two different actions like pass/catch. Read my response to you on the last page for my further reasoning, but it creates an unnecessary preference to pick up both the D and return guy just to get 12+ points (and it can really be an absurd swing with return yardage double-dipped too)for the same action that leads to a TD.

But you run the risk of putting all your eggs in a basket that is rather unlikely to pay off. Far less likely to pay off than a QB/WR tandem where both guys not only get the TD pts but the yards as well. Even in return yardage leagues, the D/ST only gets the TD (at least typically).

 

Sure, I get the fact that it's just one guy running it back as opposed to two FF players each doing a specific part of the play.

 

However, more scoring is more fun and taking it away from either side seems to be not worth it.

 

Once again, if you take it away from the D/ST, you've largely removed the entire action from your league, because the vast majority are scored by random dudes who would only be started in leagues that reward return yardage.

 

If you take it away from the players themselves, then you don't get credit for starting a guy and having him score a TD. Which would be lame as hell. Watching a guy you started in FF score a TD and not getting the points because, it was the wrong kind of TD?

[delusions of grandeur]

Once again, if you take it away from the D/ST, you've largely removed the entire action from your league, because the vast majority are scored by random dudes who would only be started in leagues that reward return yardage.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Even in one of my BoTH leagues where we don't reward return yardage, we still allow return TDs for the individual. It's jsut the D/ST that doesn't get it rewarded... But most of the time rewarding the TD to the individual should go along with the individual getting return yardage.

 

But that's more explaining their reasoning... I'm with you more on the TDs, as it is in the league I commish/wrote the preliminary rules that we allow double dipping on return TDs. Like you said, it's more fun, and rewards both for that rare occurence...

 

It's more double-dipping return yardage leagues that I have a hugh issue with... In fact, I do not like rewarding KR/PR yardage to a team D at all, with no regard to whether you reward the individual or not. It simply makes bad defenses viable when they get 5+ return opportunities, just because they can't keep the other team out of the end-zone. I've seen CLE's D be tops in a league just because they gave Cribbs so many opportunities to bust one, and that sucks. I'd rather have the D and special teams reducing the need for offensive/kick return scoring, rather than necessitating them by being below average.

Edited October 17, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[stevegrab]

delusions of grandeur,

 

Are you saying that whether the individual or the team gets the return TD depends on who the player is? If the player is rostered, or an offensive player they get it, otherwise the D/ST gets it? So that there is no double dipping, only one side could get it?

 

If so I'd assume that this scoring is either handled manually or you have some very complicated rules set up.

 

We don't see the double dipping as wrong, and don't care if somebody wants to have CHI-D/ST and Hester to try and double up on those few times that he scores a TD (if they're even playing Hester regularly since his offensive stats are terrible).

 

To each his own, that is why there are many leagues with many different rules and scoring. Nobody's system is any more right or wrong than the next guys.

 

We don't do return yardage at all, although it would be interesting and add some value to some marginal players.

[keggerz]

you know how you fix this problem? I will tell you how...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDP

[Big Country]

This is just a rehash of the same post every year the first.. or second.. or third time it happens that year.

 

Every league is unique.

 

Every league has some differences in THEIR scoring rules.

 

Some leagues award kick/punt return yardage/TDs to the individual.

 

Some leagues award kick/punt return yardage/TDs to a team position (be it team D, team ST, or combined team D/ST.. and yes, I have seen leagues where D and ST were separated)

 

Some leagues award kick/punt returns yardage/TDs to BOTH the individual and the team position.

 

How YOUR league does it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

The question at ahnd is whether or not a passing play out of a kick formation, whetehr by design or due to a miscue, is an OFFENSIVE play or a "special teams" play.

 

Every year we have the same discussion. Every year, it is the same answer - a play that results in a regular offensive play (pass, rush, etc.)is an offensive play. In general, for a play to be considered a "special teams" play, a kick must either occur or be attempted (punt, block punt, FG, blocked FG, kickoff). Missing that key element, the play is just a normal offensive play.

 

MFL addresses this is their help section on scoring for strange plays:

The NFL does not have separate statistical categories for fake punts and kicks, so MyFantasyLeague.com does not, either. Instead, a fake play is scored as a regular rushing or passing play, just as it appears in a typical box score. If you want to award your kicker or punter position for these types of plays, be sure that your league scoring rules are set up to include things like rushing and passing TDs, rushing and passing yards, etc. for kickers and punters, if appropriate for your league. If you want to award your Special Teams or Team Defense position for these types of plays, there isn't any automatic way to do this. Instead, you would have to use the "For Commissioners > Setup > Player Score Adjuster" to add the points to the Team Defense position if/when this type of situation occurs.

 

and also:

 

Fake or Broken Play Resulting In A TD.

 

•Scenario: Team A scores a Rushing (or Passing) TD as the result of a fake or broken play.

•Result: Regardless of whether this play started out offensively or as a Special Teams play (i.e., a punt or FG formation), the NFL, and myfantasyleague.com by extension, recognize this as a Rushing (or Passing TD) awarded to the team offense and the players involved for the distance from the line of scrimmage to the end zone.

 

As noted clearly, the default is to score it as the NFL does... a regular offensive play. To have the points awarded to a team D/ST, as any league is free to choose to do so requires a manual adjustment as the software can't even handle it automatically.

[Bier Meister]

these days these scenarios are common:

- d/st and player gets pts for return td

- d/st or player gets pts for return td

 

uncommon for neither d/st nor player to not get pts for return td

 

mixed on scoring for odd plays when st is on the field

[delusions of grandeur]

delusions of grandeur,

 

Are you saying that whether the individual or the team gets the return TD depends on who the player is? If the player is rostered, or an offensive player they get it, otherwise the D/ST gets it? So that there is no double dipping, only one side could get it?

No, what I'm saying is that in most of my leagues (aside from the one I set up) it's either the team D or the indivdual player. There's no contingency, just one or the other, not both..

 

And no, there is no wrong way to do things, just explaining the reasoning for why we do things the way we do it... If I had my way, we'd allow TDs for both the team D and the individual in all the leagues. It's more the return yardage that IMO shouldn't be double-dipped (and IMO, return yardage is not an accurate indicator of D/ST strength and makes poor D's viable.)

[Pope Flick]

In NORRIS, we keep it pretty simple: if a team is in possession of the ball at snap it is on offense. This includes punt and field goal formations: so Rackers last year certainly received a TD pass but the D/ST unit was never considered for that score.

 

If a team is lining up for a kickoff, that is considered the ST part of the D/ST we draft.

 

Everything else is defense. Last night we awarded both the Chicago Team and Hester the TDs for his returns.

 

We also lock in the units for the duration of a play once the ball is snapped so we get nonw of that "the cornerback made a pick but fumbled the ball so when the RB recovered he was on technically on defense" nonsense that breaks out every 3 years but is for a different thread.

[detlef]

In NORRIS, we keep it pretty simple: if a team is in possession of the ball at snap it is on offense. This includes punt and field goal formations: so Rackers last year certainly received a TD pass but the D/ST unit was never considered for that score.

 

If a team is lining up for a kickoff, that is considered the ST part of the D/ST we draft.

 

Everything else is defense. Last night we awarded both the Chicago Team and Hester the TDs for his returns.

 

We also lock in the units for the duration of a play once the ball is snapped so we get nonw of that "the cornerback made a pick but fumbled the ball so when the RB recovered he was on technically on defense" nonsense that breaks out every 3 years but is for a different thread.

So how does recovering a muffed punt get scored? That's not points for the D/ST?

 

Just curious.

[Azazello1313]

this is pretty simple. an offensive play run from a "special teams" formation is still an offensive play. D/ST scoring only comes into play when there is a change of possession.

[Big John]

So how does recovering a muffed punt get scored? That's not points for the D/ST?

 

Just curious.

Since a muffed punt can't be advanced by the kicking team, the only way they can score is if it is recovered in the end zone. Then the kicking teams D/ST is normally credited with the score since the ball was actually kicked.

[Big John]

this is pretty simple. an offensive play run from a "special teams" formation is still an offensive play. D/ST scoring only comes into play when there is a change of possession.

As I said in the prior post, it is a ST play once the ball is kicked. Made XP/FG don't count for these as the kicker gets the points here.

[detlef]

Since a muffed punt can't be advanced by the kicking team, the only way they can score is if it is recovered in the end zone. Then the kicking teams D/ST is normally credited with the score since the ball was actually kicked.

I'm simply referring to the recovery. Since you get pts for fumble recoveries, how does this fit in? If I understand Pope Flick correctly, the punting team shouldn't get pts for recovering the "fumble". Heck, it sounds like they shouldn't get pts for recovering a fumble if the kick returner fields it cleanly and then fumbles later.

[Big John]

I'm simply referring to the recovery. Since you get pts for fumble recoveries, how does this fit in? If I understand Pope Flick correctly, the punting team shouldn't get pts for recovering the "fumble". Heck, it sounds like they shouldn't get pts for recovering a fumble if the kick returner fields it cleanly and then fumbles later.

A muff is officially a fumble for NFL stats, so a recovered muff is a fumble recovery.

[delusions of grandeur]

I'm simply referring to the recovery. Since you get pts for fumble recoveries, how does this fit in? If I understand Pope Flick correctly, the punting team shouldn't get pts for recovering the "fumble". Heck, it sounds like they shouldn't get pts for recovering a fumble if the kick returner fields it cleanly and then fumbles later.

I see what you're saying, and it's a good point if on every play the team with the ball first is considered the offense, but I think this is the clarifying statement "If a team is lining up for a kickoff, that is considered the ST part of the D/ST we draft. "

 

I think a kickoff is different, even though it begins with the kicking team on "offense"... Actually it feels silly even calling them the offensive team, because there is no choice or down to "go for it". You have to kick it no matter what, and so that becomes part of special teams. I think that's definitely the clarifier, because there is no possible way the team can run an offensive play on kickoffs, whereas that possibility is always open when kicking a punt or FG.

Edited October 17, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[Big Country]

So how does recovering a muffed punt get scored? That's not points for the D/ST?

 

Just curious.

 

 

From MFL Help section again:

 

Muffed Punt.

 

•Scenario: Player A is part of a return team and while receiving a punt, he lets the ball make contact with him before losing control.

•Result: Regardless of whether the player actively touches the ball or the ball touches the player, when the player loses control, Player A is charged with a muffed punt, which translates in the statistics to a fumble. At this point, the ball remains live allowing either team (return or kicking) to make a recovery. If Player B from the kicking team makes the recovery, then Player A is also charged for a 'fumble lost' and Player B is awarded a 'fumble recovery'. Note that the kicking team cannot advance the ball beyond the spot of the recovery.

 

I'm am of the impression that the recovery of a muffed punt is indeed a fumble recovery/turnover, and the D/ST would get credit for that action, assuming that fumble recovery is a scoring play for team d/st in your particular league.

 

And for those that will get into the discussion on a team throws an interception, it gets fumbled, recovered by the throwing team and returned for a TD:

 

Offensive Fumble Recovery TD Following A Turnover.

 

•Scenario: Team A has the ball and passes or rushes with it.

◦In a pass scenario, Team A throws an interception to Player B1 on Team B. Player B1 subsequently fumbles the ball. The recovery is made by Player A2 on Team A who runs it in for a TD.

◦In a rush scenario, Player A1 on Team A fumbles the ball to Player B1 on Team B. Player B1 subsequently fumbles the ball and the resulting recovery is made by a Player A2 on Team A who runs it in for a TD.>

•Result: Player A2 is awarded an ‘Offensive Fumble Recovery TD’ from the distance from the recovery to the end zone. This is not considered a Defensive Team TD because the Team A defense was not on the field.

[detlef]

I see what you're saying, and it's a good point if on every play the team with the ball first is considered the offense, but I think this is the clarifying statement "If a team is lining up for a kickoff, that is considered the ST part of the D/ST we draft. "

 

I think a kickoff is different, even though it begins with the kicking team on "offense"... Actually it feels silly even calling them the offensive team, because there is no choice or down to "go for it". You have to kick it no matter what, and so that becomes part of special teams. I think that's definitely the clarifier, because there is no possible way the team can run an offensive play on kickoffs, whereas that possibility is always open when kicking a punt or FG.

That's why I ignored kick-offs and only brought up punts. The kick-off is clearly defined in his rules, but the punt doesn't seem that way. Like you said, calling the kicking team the offense on a kick-off is pretty dumb. However, the argument that many of us make with regard to why the result of fake punts should not be counted as D/ST scores is that the punting team is the offense. And, if I understand Polk correctly, they remain the offense through the duration of the play, even after the other team has fielded the ball.

 

Needless to say, guys fumbling punts is far more common than the "dude who picks off a pass and then fumbles it back" deal that often gets brought up and results in leagues making distinctions like his made.

[flemingd]

No they can't. If the kicking team recovers the kick without the receiving team controlling the ball first, the kicking team can't advance the ball.

Can't believe I'm challenging the king, but I don't think this is accurate. Maybe I'm thinking college, but I'm sure I recently saw a guy cleanly field the onsides kick and run untouched for a TD.

[Big John]

Can't believe I'm challenging the king, but I don't think this is accurate. Maybe I'm thinking college, but I'm sure I recently saw a guy cleanly field the onsides kick and run untouched for a TD.

May be college, but not clear on the NCAA rules here. For the NFL, the receiving team can advance an onsides kick, but the kicking team can't.

[flemingd]

May be college, but not clear on the NCAA rules here. For the NFL, the receiving team can advance an onsides kick, but the kicking team can't.

Yep nevermind, I confused the terminology. Kicking team cannot advance, what I remember seeing was the receiving team. Proceed with a head-slap at your leisure.

[delusions of grandeur]

From MFL Help section again:

 

 

 

I'm am of the impression that the recovery of a muffed punt is indeed a fumble recovery/turnover, and the D/ST would get credit for that action, assuming that fumble recovery is a scoring play for team d/st in your particular league.

 

And for those that will get into the discussion on a team throws an interception, it gets fumbled, recovered by the throwing team and returned for a TD:

Ah I see now... Det's question was regarding PF's league where the offensive team is considered offense throughout the play... In that case, with them being the offense at the start of the snap, how could that team be credited with a D/ST score if they're considered to still be the offense even after kicking a punt?

[Pope Flick]

I'm simply referring to the recovery. Since you get pts for fumble recoveries, how does this fit in? If I understand Pope Flick correctly, the punting team shouldn't get pts for recovering the "fumble". Heck, it sounds like they shouldn't get pts for recovering a fumble if the kick returner fields it cleanly and then fumbles later.

 

 

What gives you that idea? Perhaps my explanation over wrote a bit if you're referring to the snap of the ball thing. It's a very technical point on that, and more aimed at the whole "Frank Gore recovered the fumbled interception" whereas there is the expectation that a successful punt involves a change of possession. Still, it seems a clarification might be in order there.