NFL MVP? Peyton or Foles?

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

Really? Gee, I wonder *WHY* Lynch is a top-5 RB and the WRs appear "underrated". Hmmmmm....

 

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Really? Gee, I wonder *WHY* Lynch is a top-5 RB and the WRs appear "underrated". Hmmmmm....

 

I couldn't figure out why AP is top 5...gotta be Ponder I guess. Yeah, that explains it!

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

I couldn't figure out why AP is top 5...gotta be Ponder I guess. Yeah, that explains it!

 

Finally someone gets it , QB's make or break RB's

[Tripleshot]

Wilson has a top 5 RB, underrated wrs, one of the best OLs, and the best D in the NFL. He is 17th in passing yards, tied with Dalton for 6th in TDs, and 7th in completion percentage and 7th in QBR.

 

Manning is 2nd in completion % behind Rivers (who is inexplicably left off this list), 1st in TDs, and 1st in yards by a big margin and 1st in QBR. He does have great weapons and a decent to good running game (i would argue the success of the running game stems from Manning being the QB)

 

Now tell me why Wilson is ahead of Manning? Especially when you state you are more concerned with production than name?

 

My list would be...

1. Peyton

2. Foles

3. Brees

4. Cam

5. Rivers

6. Wilson

 

 

I"ve already pointed out that Denver gets more production from their running backs than Seattle does from theirs. Lynch is top 5 because he gets the majority of the carries, but all told, minus Wilson's own rushing totals, Denver has more rushing yards and rushing TDs than Seattle. So I encourage you to tell Moreno to his face, that Manning is the reason for his success. Not that he was ever a first round pick and talent himself who just hasn't stayed healthy until this year.

 

I'd like to know on what exactly you based your premise of Seattle's o-line being one of the best in the league - this year. Certainly you're basing this solely on Lynch's numbers and not any o-line metrics, because they've not been very good this year due to being decimated by injuries across the entire line. And Wilson has been sacked twice an much as Manning, but you can chalk that up to Manning's quick release and the fact that Wilson is a limited-mobility pylon in the pocket. But hey, still surely they're another reason over Wilson as to why the Seahawks are winning. And Denver's o-line, have they been one of the best in the league this year? I guess Manning accounts for their excellent play this year too.

 

As to Seattle's underrated reveivers... Name one Denver receiver you'd trade for one of Seattle's. Gee, that took 0.214 seconds to say "none" to. Next you're going to say how Ricardo Lockett is one of the premier deep threats in the league. But Denver's receivers being good, hell - pro bowl level, can be accounted for by Manning, because Thomas and Welker did nothing before Manning was throwing to them.

 

As for the defense, you have your only correct point made there. Seattle's defense is perhaps the best in the league whereas Denver's would battle for being one of the worst, except the Cowboys have a death grip on that title. And to be perfectly honest, does Seattle's defense help or hurt Wilson's credentials? Manning's historic totals are historic because he's throwing the ball so damn much. Wilson is never going to throw that much. Hell, Manning threw 59 times in a 51-28 win. You might not see Wilson throw 59 times in THREE Seattle wins. Do the math and extrapolate Wilson's passing stats if he attempted as many passes as Manning has this season. You'll be pretty surprised by the results. But he'll never have those totals. Is it because he's not as effective(check out his QB rating and YPA, check out his passer rating on deep balls, etc.) or is it because his defense doesn't dictate high-scoring shootouts. The argument can be made that Denver's defense actually contributes to Mannings totals.

 

As you your own MVP rankings there. How can you rank Cam above Wilson. He has a great running game. He has underrated receivers. He has a great defense. Seems you cannot apply you're own logic in devaluing Wilson's merits to the rest of your list. A tad hypocritical there, no?

 

The fact is, Wilson is like Troy Aikman. Anyone in football( in football, not just a fan who watches football) will tell you he was easily one of the top 3 QBs of his era, and equally as valuable to the Cowboys' success while he played as anyone. But Emmitt got all the gaudy rushing yards and Aikman never had to throw a bunch to win. The casual fan only looks at totals and just didn't recognize this.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Tripleshot

[stevegrab]

When I read that last paragraph it sounds like you believe Emmitt got all those gaudy numbers because of Aikman.

 

And Wilson runs a lot more than Aikman, adding extra yards to the offensive total that Aikman could not. SEA OL is not to comapre to the DAL OL of that era either.

 

I think for many the discussion is similar to comparing QBs on SB winning teams. Those that needed to throw a lot to win, and where passing was a key part of the offense (Peyton, Brees, Brady) are seen as being much better (and were) than somebody like Dilfer who won with a good running game and defense. I am not saying Wilson is like Dilfer just a game manager, but when your team focus is running (including the QB) and defense, the QB as a passer is just not considered to be as important.

 

From my perspective nothing wrong with having Wilson in the discussion for MVP, but when it comes down to casting a vote, it goes to Peyton. Heck one could argue put Rivers in this conversation, despite his teams 7-7 record.

[delusions of grandeur]

From my perspective nothing wrong with having Wilson in the discussion for MVP, but when it comes down to casting a vote, it goes to Peyton. Heck one could argue put Rivers in this conversation, despite his teams 7-7 record.

 

 

Now Rivers might be the better comparison in the "Best player on best team vs. best player on a team that would suck without him".

 

But comparing whether Manning or Wilson benefits more from their different types of strong supporting casts, is kind of pointless... I know the voters won't discount Manning just because he's having a historical season with great weapons, and they aren't going to upgrade Wilson because he's asked to do less with a strong D and running game. Sorry, you don't win the Heisman either if you're not asked to carry your team.

[darin3]

I couldn't figure out why AP is top 5...gotta be Ponder I guess. Yeah, that explains it!

 

 

Dude, AP could get 100/1 behind a line of midgets stuck in mud. Go ahead, try and prove me wrong!

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

Dude, AP could get 100/1 behind a line of midgets stuck in mud. Go ahead, try and prove me wrong!

 

but what if the midgets weren't stuck in mud ?

 

Now admit it , Ponder took AP from being a good RB to a Great RB , good QB's have a way of doing that

[sausagekingchi]

I"ve already pointed out that Denver gets more production from their running backs than Seattle does from theirs. Lynch is top 5 because he gets the majority of the carries, but all told, minus Wilson's own rushing totals, Denver has more rushing yards and rushing TDs than Seattle. So I encourage you to tell Moreno to his face, that Manning is the reason for his success. Not that he was ever a first round pick and talent himself who just hasn't stayed healthy until this year.

 

I'd like to know on what exactly you based your premise of Seattle's o-line being one of the best in the league - this year. Certainly you're basing this solely on Lynch's numbers and not any o-line metrics, because they've not been very good this year due to being decimated by injuries across the entire line. And Wilson has been sacked twice an much as Manning, but you can chalk that up to Manning's quick release and the fact that Wilson is a limited-mobility pylon in the pocket. But hey, still surely they're another reason over Wilson as to why the Seahawks are winning. And Denver's o-line, have they been one of the best in the league this year? I guess Manning accounts for their excellent play this year too.

 

As to Seattle's underrated reveivers... Name one Denver receiver you'd trade for one of Seattle's. Gee, that took 0.214 seconds to say "none" to. Next you're going to say how Ricardo Lockett is one of the premier deep threats in the league. But Denver's receivers being good, hell - pro bowl level, can be accounted for by Manning, because Thomas and Welker did nothing before Manning was throwing to them.

 

As for the defense, you have your only correct point made there. Seattle's defense is perhaps the best in the league whereas Denver's would battle for being one of the worst, except the Cowboys have a death grip on that title. And to be perfectly honest, does Seattle's defense help or hurt Wilson's credentials? Manning's historic totals are historic because he's throwing the ball so damn much. Wilson is never going to throw that much. Hell, Manning threw 59 times in a 51-28 win. You might not see Wilson throw 59 times in THREE Seattle wins. Do the math and extrapolate Wilson's passing stats if he attempted as many passes as Manning has this season. You'll be pretty surprised by the results. But he'll never have those totals. Is it because he's not as effective(check out his QB rating and YPA, check out his passer rating on deep balls, etc.) or is it because his defense doesn't dictate high-scoring shootouts. The argument can be made that Denver's defense actually contributes to Mannings totals.

 

As you your own MVP rankings there. How can you rank Cam above Wilson. He has a great running game. He has underrated receivers. He has a great defense. Seems you cannot apply you're own logic in devaluing Wilson's merits to the rest of your list. A tad hypocritical there, no?

 

The fact is, Wilson is like Troy Aikman. Anyone in football( in football, not just a fan who watches football) will tell you he was easily one of the top 3 QBs of his era, and equally as valuable to the Cowboys' success while he played as anyone. But Emmitt got all the gaudy rushing yards and Aikman never had to throw a bunch to win. The casual fan only looks at totals and just didn't recognize this.

 

So are you saying that Knowshon Moreno is as good or better than Marshawn Lynch??

 

Denver's receivers did not have great careers going until Manning showed up (minus Welker of course). I think he has a lot more to do with their gaudy numbers than they do themselves. I mean you can go back to his days in Indy and see some of the numbers guys put up who did not come close to doing that when Manning wasn't the guy throwing them the ball.

 

The whole "if Wilson threw it as much as Manning" argument is really pointless. You can't simply extrapolate his numbers like that to say he would do this or that if he threw this many times because there are way too many variables to consider. This isn't math or science where that scenario could be controlled, it is football.

Edited December 13, 2013 by sausagekingchi

[darin3]

So are you saying that Knowshon Moreno is as good or better than Marshawn Lynch??

 

Denver's receivers did not have great careers going until Manning showed up (minus Welker of course). I think he has a lot more to do with their gaudy numbers than they do themselves. I mean you can go back to his days in Indy and see some of the numbers guys put up who did not come close to doing that when Manning wasn't the guy throwing them the ball.

 

The whole "if Wilson threw it as much as Manning" argument is really pointless. You can't simply extrapolate his numbers like that to say he would do this or that if he threw this many times because there are way too many variables to consider. This isn't math or science where that scenario could be controlled, it is football.

 

 

I won't speak to the Lynch vs. Moreno deal. Lynch is a beast, but Moreno certainly has admirable attributes himself.

 

But your "Denver's WRs didn't have great careers" thing is a little outlandish.

 

Demaryius Thomas played for a wishbone offense in college, but was drawing comparisons to fellow Georgia Tech alum Calvin Johnson right out of the gate. He had a "normal" 1st year of production and then in his 2nd year, saw plenty of growth... this with Tim freakin' Tebow under center for the majority of the season. Tim Tebow. He has blossomed into one of the games more dominant recievers. So, fail there.

 

Welker - as you intimate - is a stud, so there's no use even going there.

 

As for Decker, he MIGHT be your only play here, but um... he had 696 yards and 8 TDs with Touchdown Jesus under center. Not a bad 2nd season for him either.

 

So, to say Thomas and Decker didn't have "great careers" until Manning showed up is, well, a bit misguided. Both were rookies in 2010 and improved in 2011.

 

[bud29]

So are you saying that Knowshon Moreno is as good or better than Marshawn Lynch??

 

Denver's receivers did not have great careers going until Manning showed up (minus Welker of course). I think he has a lot more to do with their gaudy numbers than they do themselves. I mean you can go back to his days in Indy and see some of the numbers guys put up who did not come close to doing that when Manning wasn't the guy throwing them the ball.

 

The whole "if Wilson threw it as much as Manning" argument is really pointless. You can't simply extrapolate his numbers like that to say he would do this or that if he threw this many times because there are way too many variables to consider. This isn't math or science where that scenario could be controlled, it is football.

 

 

Not going to cover the deal about WRs, darin seems to have handled that well

 

 

At least in my mind, the argument is not "If Wilson threw as much as Manning he would have the same stats." It is, his stats aren't as gaudy because of smaller volume. Wilson may or may not produce the same stats as Manning with a given workload. But Wilson has 250 fewer pass attempts than Manning this season, so you can't just point to totals all day long. I would sure as hell hope that Peyton's totals are higher if he's passed that many more times.

Edited December 14, 2013 by bud29

[HowboutthemCowboys]

 

 

But Wilson has 250 fewer pass attempts than Manning this season, so you can't just point to totals all day long. I would sure as hell hope that Peyton's totals are higher if he's passed that many more times.

 

138 posts and we're right back where we started. Wilson is a fine player with what looks like a great future in the league.

 

He isn't asked to carry his football team at this point in his career. He's not the most valuable player in the league

[bud29]

138 posts and we're right back where we started.

 

 

Incorrect, since the thread started about Peyton vs. Foles

 

That aside, my point really is that while Manning's totals have been gaudy, Wilson's case at least deserves some serious consideration, whether he wins MVP or doesn't. I wholeheartedly agree that Manning will win, he has a solid record and great stats.

[darin3]

Incorrect, since the thread started about Peyton vs. Foles

 

That aside, my point really is that while Manning's totals have been gaudy, Wilson's case at least deserves some serious consideration, whether he wins MVP or doesn't. I wholeheartedly agree that Manning will win, he has a solid record and great stats.

 

 

Agree 100%.

[Chief Dick]

Jamaal Charles deserves consideration for the league MVP.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

Jamaal Charles deserves consideration for the league MVP.

If McCoy played for KC he would be in the mix too

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Jamaal Charles deserves consideration for the league MVP.

 

agree

[darin3]

Jamaal Charles deserves consideration for the league MVP.

 

 

For sure. Dude's a beast.

[wpayers]

Jamaal Charles deserves consideration for the league MVP.

 

A valid case can be certainly be made...he's got the momentum. But than again so does Matt Asiata.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

A valid case can be certainly be made...he's got the momentum. But than again so does Matt Asiata.

 

[sausagekingchi]

I won't speak to the Lynch vs. Moreno deal. Lynch is a beast, but Moreno certainly has admirable attributes himself.

 

But your "Denver's WRs didn't have great careers" thing is a little outlandish.

 

Demaryius Thomas played for a wishbone offense in college, but was drawing comparisons to fellow Georgia Tech alum Calvin Johnson right out of the gate. He had a "normal" 1st year of production and then in his 2nd year, saw plenty of growth... this with Tim freakin' Tebow under center for the majority of the season. Tim Tebow. He has blossomed into one of the games more dominant recievers. So, fail there.

 

Welker - as you intimate - is a stud, so there's no use even going there.

 

As for Decker, he MIGHT be your only play here, but um... he had 696 yards and 8 TDs with Touchdown Jesus under center. Not a bad 2nd season for him either.

 

So, to say Thomas and Decker didn't have "great careers" until Manning showed up is, well, a bit misguided. Both were rookies in 2010 and improved in 2011.

 

 

Okay, at least you aren't foolish enough to argue Lynch versus Moreno. It is odd how much better Moreno became once Manning showed up though. In games he started he went from averaging 81 yards from scrimmage and 12 total TD's (24 games started pre-Manning) to averaging 105 yards from scrimmage and 15 total TD's in only 20 games started with Manning. Thats is a huge increase in production from him since Manning took over.

 

Decker my only player????? What about Julius Thomas? Where was he before Manning showed up? 11 TD's to a guy who had one career pass catch prior to this season. No doubt he would have done this with any middle of the road QB.

 

Yeah, I'm very familiar with Demaryius and what he did at GT. He certainly had the tools to become a #1 WR in the NFL, which is why he was drafted in the 1st round. Doesn't matter who was throwing to him before Manning got there, the fact is no one ever said "this guy is one of the best WR's in the game" until Peyton came. Decker's number's doubled once Manning got there. Maybe it is all coincidence that this happened and with any other QB outside of Tebow these guys would have become studs and put up the same numbers. Maybe with Wilson under center Decker's numbers would have tripled, Demaryius would have people saying "Calvin who" and Julius Thomas would be the poster child for modern day tight ends.

 

Demaryius is also on record as saying Manning has made him the WR he has become. He credits him with teaching him, and more importantly, showing him what it takes to become a premier player in the NFL.

 

Another thing that stands out is the number of players who happen to have the best statistical year of their career's while playing with Peyton.

[stevegrab]

Okay, at least you aren't foolish enough to argue Lynch versus Moreno. It is odd how much better Moreno became once Manning showed up though. In games he started he went from averaging 81 yards from scrimmage and 12 total TD's (24 games started pre-Manning) to averaging 105 yards from scrimmage and 15 total TD's in only 20 games started with Manning. Thats is a huge increase in production from him since Manning took over.

 

Decker my only player????? What about Julius Thomas? Where was he before Manning showed up? 11 TD's to a guy who had one career pass catch prior to this season. No doubt he would have done this with any middle of the road QB.

 

Yeah, I'm very familiar with Demaryius and what he did at GT. He certainly had the tools to become a #1 WR in the NFL, which is why he was drafted in the 1st round. Doesn't matter who was throwing to him before Manning got there, the fact is no one ever said "this guy is one of the best WR's in the game" until Peyton came. Decker's number's doubled once Manning got there. Maybe it is all coincidence that this happened and with any other QB outside of Tebow these guys would have become studs and put up the same numbers. Maybe with Wilson under center Decker's numbers would have tripled, Demaryius would have people saying "Calvin who" and Julius Thomas would be the poster child for modern day tight ends.

 

Demaryius is also on record as saying Manning has made him the WR he has become. He credits him with teaching him, and more importantly, showing him what it takes to become a premier player in the NFL.

 

Another thing that stands out is the number of players who happen to have the best statistical year of their career's while playing with Peyton.

 

Yep heard that recently as well. He may have been pretty good in 2011, but he was not nearly as good as he is now after 2 years with Peyton. The entire offense is better from their time spent with him. Just look at the numbers below and then try to tell me he was on pace (after 2010 & 2011) for that 2012 season. He nearly tripled his 2011 production in 2012 (rec, yards, TD).

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomDe03.htm

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

Yep heard that recently as well. He may have been pretty good in 2011, but he was not nearly as good as he is now after 2 years with Peyton. The entire offense is better from their time spent with him. Just look at the numbers below and then try to tell me he was on pace (after 2010 & 2011) for that 2012 season. He nearly tripled his 2011 production in 2012 (rec, yards, TD).

http://www.pro-footb.../T/ThomDe03.htm

 

Come on , one word for you TEBOW

[stevegrab]

Come on , one word for you TEBOW

 

 

One word for you, Peyton (made him a much better WR, than he was in 2011 with Tebow, which is counter to darin's point).

[flemingd]

Jamaal Charles deserves consideration for the league MVP.

 

 

Yeah, if they played the Raiders 16 times, sure. But of course we'd then be overrun with candidates.