NFL MVP? Peyton or Foles?

[HowboutthemCowboys]

If Romo were the QB of the Seahawks this year he'd be on IR or dead because of all the o-line injuries in Seattle this season. For that matter, most of the QBs you guys think could guide Seattle to the same record this year would be too. I've come to the conclusion that most of you haven't seen more than a couple of Seahawk games this year, because if you had, you'd realize he IS the focal point of everything the Seahawks do on offense because of his decision making. This is why he's been so much better than his contemporaries this year. He's smarter, prepares better, and is cooler in tight games. While Kaep and RGIII are struggling because opposing defenses have adjusted to them, Wilson had already adjusted to the other teams' adjustments. Take something away from him, and he'll just beat you in other ways. Wilson lacks Peyton's totals, but he has Peyton's mind, work ethic, and desire for excellence. Time will prove this to all outside of Seattle, as those of us in Seattle already know this. So keep pointing to all of Peyton's gawdy totals, because they are truly historic as Kegger says, but Wilson is damn near as efficient as Peyton in every category not based on sheer volume(QB rating, ypa, etc.). I'm fine with Peyton as MVP. Wilson will have a different trophy come February.

 

the more I think about you're right. Might as well crown him the next Montana and just give Seattle the Lombardi too.

 

Take your legal Josh Gordon smoked goggles off

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Lynch is 3rd in carries in the league. Wilson is ~17th in passing yards...yeah, he IS the focal point of everything they do on offense...

 

 

ETA: I really like Wilson...but ya'll are

Edited December 6, 2013 by HowboutthemCowboys

[darin3]

Lynch is 3rd in carries in the league. Wilson is ~17th in passing yards...yeah, he IS the focal point of everything they do on offense...

 

 

ETA: I really like Wilson...but ya'll are

 

 

I think we just have a difference of opinion on what should constitute "MVP". You are obviously all about the stats. Which is fine, I suppose. A lot of folks are. Gaudy numbers impress people. So do shiny objects, sometimes.

 

I try and blend in leadership, intangibles, etc.

 

Sure, Lynch has been money, but would he be so money with some scrub running the QB spot for this team? Teams have to focus on Wilson's ability to scramble/run AND his passing efficiency. This has opened up lanes for Lynch.... IMO.

 

Back to your "what if so-and-so were the QB instead of Wilson" angle. Let's say Romo were on Seattle, had Wilson's exact stats and had led them to an 11-1 record thus far. I wouldn't have any issue saying he was deserving of the award.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

 

 

I think we just have a difference of opinion on what should constitute "MVP". You are obviously all about the stats. Which is fine, I suppose. A lot of folks are. Gaudy numbers impress people. So do shiny objects, sometimes.

 

I try and blend in leadership, intangibles, etc.

 

Sure, Lynch has been money, but would he be so money with some scrub running the QB spot for this team? Teams have to focus on Wilson's ability to scramble/run AND his passing efficiency. This has opened up lanes for Lynch.... IMO.

 

Back to your "what if so-and-so were the QB instead of Wilson" angle. Let's say Romo were on Seattle, had Wilson's exact stats and had led them to an 11-1 record thus far. I wouldn't have any issue saying he was deserving of the award.

 

if this is the case..where'd you have RG3 last yr in the MVP voting 13 weeks in?

[darin3]

if this is the case..where'd you have RG3 last yr in the MVP voting 13 weeks in?

 

 

Not sure how that's relevant seeing that they were 7-6 at that point.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Wilson's thrown for 300 twice. He's thrown for less than 250 8 times. He's 20th in attempts, 20th in completions. 17th in tds. ~ middle of the road in turnovers. His rb is 3rd in the league in rushes. Very good defense. If you really think this team couldn't win without him I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even if you "ignore stats"...(even though earlier in the thread you pointed out how shiny Foles' stats would have to be the rest of the way for him to be in the discussion)

[darin3]

Wilson's thrown for 300 twice. He's thrown for less than 250 8 times. He's 20th in attempts, 20th in completions. 17th in tds. ~ middle of the road in turnovers. His rb is 3rd in the league in rushes. Very good defense. If you really think this team couldn't win without him I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even if you "ignore stats"...(even though earlier in the thread you pointed out how shiny Foles' stats would have to be the rest of the way for him to be in the discussion)

 

 

Feel free to ignore the fact that I also said his team would have to WIN GAMES and WIN THE DIVISION.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

 

 

Feel free to ignore the fact that I also said his team would have to WIN GAMES and WIN THE DIVISION.

 

feel free to ignore the 1st 3 lines in my post you just quoted ...the one with all the 20's...

 

 

Peyton's the most valuable player in the league so far this year. For anyone not to see that they either dislike Peyton for whatever reason or are just tired of hearing about how good he is IMO.

 

Only argument I can even fathom against him is Calvin. Can you imagine Detroit without him?

 

 

 

[flemingd]

If Romo played for Seattle and Wilson played for Dallas, what do you think the records would be?

 

Dallas 9-3 and Seattle 7-5

 

You're busing on Wilson's 64.8% and 22 TD's (23 actually, one rushing) yet Romo is clocking a whopping 64.9% and 24. On 135 more attempts. Yeah, of course Romo is going to have more yards.

 

Wilson is a better QB than Romo is RIGHT NOW. He makes fewer mistakes, he can make things happen with his legs Romo can't, he doesn't have anyone is the same zip code as Dez Bryant's talent or Jason Witten's money-ness, and no one expects him to toss yet another game loser in the waning moments. Wilson's stats are irrelevant, he's got a better running game and defense that they don't need to air it out all the time. If they did need to, I'd take Wilson over Romo to win me a game any time.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

 

 

Dallas 9-3 and Seattle 7-5

 

You're busing on Wilson's 64.8% and 22 TD's (23 actually, one rushing) yet Romo is clocking a whopping 64.9% and 24. On 135 more attempts. Yeah, of course Romo is going to have more yards.

 

Wilson is a better QB than Romo is RIGHT NOW. He makes fewer mistakes, he can make things happen with his legs Romo can't, he doesn't have anyone is the same zip code as Dez Bryant's talent or Jason Witten's money-ness, and no one expects him to toss yet another game loser in the waning moments. Wilson's stats are irrelevant, he's got a better running game and defense that they don't need to air it out all the time. If they did need to, I'd take Wilson over Romo to win me a game any time.

you're missing the pt. I stated that I'm not touting Romo for MVP, that'd be dumb. When I posted Wilson's stats it was to point out they aren't "EXCELLENT" which the person I quoted said they were.

 

That said..Wilson's made more mistakes..he has more turnovers.

 

Wilson may not have Dez or Witten, but Dallas' run game doesn't sniff Seattle's

 

Dallas' defense is pathetic..Seattle's is very good

 

And thanks for helping make my point..you're right, "Seattle has a better running game and defense..they don't need to air it out"..ie:they don't rely on Wilson to win games for them WHICH IS WHY HE IS'NT THE LEAGUE'S MOST VALUABLE PLAYER

 

OBTW..Seattle gives up 15 pts per game...with that D and run game a lot of QB's could win a lot of games

[whomper]

Gotta go slip here

[flemingd]

And thanks for helping make my point..you're right, "Seattle has a better running game and defense..they don't need to air it out"..ie:they don't rely on Wilson to win games for them WHICH IS WHY HE IS'NT THE LEAGUE'S MOST VALUABLE PLAYER

 

 

Of course they do. Every team needs to rely on their QB. And while he has a better D and run game, his tools in the passing game aren't anywhere near completed and he doesn't try to go things the O isn't capable of. Some need to rely more than others, but sometimes being valuable means knowing the limitations and not losing the game when it's won. Wilson doesn't cost his team games.

 

And my post was answering your question about the teams' records if they swapped QB's, not about pimping Wilson for MVP. I think Manning won that in around week 6 with Brady giving him a bit of a push the last few. But Wilson's in the discussion as well. Any 11-1 team's QB is.

[bud29]

OBTW..Seattle gives up 15 pts per game...with that D and run game a lot of QB's could win a lot of games

 

I would almost venture that even Peyton couldn't do what Wilson has done in Seattle, because he would be taking SO many hits due to the previously decimated O-line. Wilson was sacked 7 times against St. Louis in week 8. If the very mobile Russel Wilson was sacked that many times, how many times do you think Peyton would have gone down? He would not be able to hold up, taking hits like that.

 

I don't doubt that Manning will win MVP. He has had a remarkable season. But I don't think you can really write off Wilson's case as "laughable."

[MTSuper7]

Look, we all know that generally speaking the QB is the most important player on most teams. Again, it's not always true, but for most teams, it is true. It's the nature of what QBs do. They have to understand/read defenses, change plays at the line (sometimes), and are expected to keep the offense on the field and make their coin on 3rd downs.

 

Having said that, how do you go about determining which of these QBs is more valuable to his team? You can't simply point to the "what would happen if the backup had to play" card because not all backups are created equal. I'm not trying to dismiss how important Aaron Rodgers is to the Packers here, but if a team doesn't have a contingency plan for when their starting QB gets hurt, it shouldn't be used as evidence that the starting QB is more valuable than any other starting QB.

 

So what criteria would you use? Statistics are crucial here, IMO, because numbers don't lie. They speak for themselves. You can say all you want about how good a player is or how important they are to their team, but if their statistics don't jump off the page, they aren't going to be considered the most valuable player of the NFL. So, though I like Russell Wilson, and I think he has as bright a future as any QB in the league (and may very well earn his first championship this season - heck, he did everything he needed to do to get Seattle to the NFC Championship last year as a rookie but his defense failed him). But league MVP material? Nope. His statistics just don't measure up.

 

I'll say the same about Brady since there was some discussion about him earlier in the thread. It's amazing that the Pats are 9-3 considering what Brady's had to work with on offense. However, they do have a very solid running game and, despite the fumbling issues, some quality RB play. So, again, Brady hasn't had to be a world beater in order for this team to be successful. On a side note with Brady, I can't get out of my head the fact that the Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassel as their QB for 15 1/2 games. That's a good 5 years ago now, but considering we now know who Matt Cassel really is, it just makes me feel like Brady has been quite lucky to be surrounded by a very good team for so long (and that only recently we've seen what can happen when the team around him isn't as strong).

 

One last thought about Manning as MVP - the Broncos lost their starting pro bowl left tackle for the year early on, and Manning hasn't really missed a beat. So to whoever posted about how most other QBs would be injured or dead if they played for Seattle, I think you underestimate Peyton's ability to get rid of the ball and mask offensive line weakness with smart reads and quick, correct decisions and execution.

 

ETA - Regarding Rodgers, just think of where the Bears would be if they had to trot out the likes of Scot Tolzien, Graham Harrell, Matt Flynn, etc. with Cutler hurt. Cutler would look like an MVP candidate too.

Edited December 6, 2013 by MTSuper7

[Tripleshot]

Wilson's thrown for 300 twice. He's thrown for less than 250 8 times. He's 20th in attempts, 20th in completions. 17th in tds. ~ middle of the road in turnovers. His rb is 3rd in the league in rushes. Very good defense. If you really think this team couldn't win without him I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even if you "ignore stats"...(even though earlier in the thread you pointed out how shiny Foles' stats would have to be the rest of the way for him to be in the discussion)

 

I think I'm starting to get it. Wins only count if the QB passes for 300+ yards in the win. You keep pointing out Wilson's totals, yet ignore quarterback rating and YPA. Wilson is every bit as efficient as Manning, just not as prolific.

 

Then you point out that Lynch is 3rd in the league in carries as evidence that Wilson gets more help from Lynch than Manning does from his running game. Chew on this - The Broncos have only rushed the ball 25 fewer times this whole season than the Seahawks, and while the Seahawks do average 25 more yards per game than the Broncos, Wilson himself accounts for 38 yards per game of that. So the Broncos are actually getting more production from their running backs than the Seahawks do from their running backs! The Seahawks have 25 more rushes this year as they actually run the ball to run clock in blowout games instead of keeping their foot on the gas pedal(to get that 6th and 7th TD when the game's not close).

 

I'm telling you, you cannot gauge how good Wilson has been this year by his stats alone. He will not win the MVP, Peyton will and deservedly so, but he's definitely belongs in the conversation, and is being ranked in the top 2 or 3 by quite a few NFL writers of late. I guess they're just being silly, because his stats just aren't gaudy enough.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Tripleshot

[BA Baracus]

I'm telling you, you cannot gauge how good Wilson has been this year by his stats alone. He will not win the MVP, Peyton will and deservedly so, but he's definitely belongs in the conversation, and is being ranked in the top 2 or 3 by quite a few NFL writers of late. I guess they're just being silly, because his stats just aren't gaudy enough.

 

 

This is a pretty good summation of reality. I love Wilson, he is a bit of a hometown hero here in the Old Dominion. He should have been Rookie of the year last year. He is a hell of a player, a great guy, and quite possibly the next dominant, elite QB - in the mold of Manning himself. But for this year, Manning is the MVP by a wide margin. I agree that Wilson is in that next group of players, but no one in that group is even close to catching Manning.

 

Wilson is the future. Manning is the now.

[darin3]

I think I'm starting to get it. Wins only count if the QB passes for 300+ yards in the win. You keep pointing out Wilson's totals, yet ignore quarterback rating and YPA. Wilson is every bit as efficient as Manning, just not as prolific.

 

Then you point out that Lynch is 3rd in the league in carries as evidence that Wilson gets more help from Lynch than Manning does from his running game. Chew on this - The Broncos have only rushed the ball 25 fewer times this whole season than the Seahawks, and while the Seahawks do average 25 more yards per game than the Broncos, Wilson himself accounts for 38 yards per game of that. So the Broncos are actually getting more production from their running backs than the Seahawks do from their running backs! The Seahawks have 25 more rushes this year as they actually run the ball to run clock in blowout games instead of keeping their foot on the gas pedal(to get that 6th and 7th TD when the game's not close).

 

I'm telling you, you cannot gauge how good Wilson has been this year by his stats alone. He will not win the MVP, Peyton will and deservedly so, but he's definitely belongs in the conversation, and is being ranked in the top 2 or 3 by quite a few NFL writers of late. I guess they're just being silly, because his stats just aren't gaudy enough.

 

 

Sums it up for me.

[stevegrab]

Look, we all know that generally speaking the QB is the most important player on most teams. Again, it's not always true, but for most teams, it is true. It's the nature of what QBs do. They have to understand/read defenses, change plays at the line (sometimes), and are expected to keep the offense on the field and make their coin on 3rd downs.

 

Having said that, how do you go about determining which of these QBs is more valuable to his team? You can't simply point to the "what would happen if the backup had to play" card because not all backups are created equal. I'm not trying to dismiss how important Aaron Rodgers is to the Packers here, but if a team doesn't have a contingency plan for when their starting QB gets hurt, it shouldn't be used as evidence that the starting QB is more valuable than any other starting QB.

 

So what criteria would you use? Statistics are crucial here, IMO, because numbers don't lie. They speak for themselves. You can say all you want about how good a player is or how important they are to their team, but if their statistics don't jump off the page, they aren't going to be considered the most valuable player of the NFL. So, though I like Russell Wilson, and I think he has as bright a future as any QB in the league (and may very well earn his first championship this season - heck, he did everything he needed to do to get Seattle to the NFC Championship last year as a rookie but his defense failed him). But league MVP material? Nope. His statistics just don't measure up.

 

I'll say the same about Brady since there was some discussion about him earlier in the thread. It's amazing that the Pats are 9-3 considering what Brady's had to work with on offense. However, they do have a very solid running game and, despite the fumbling issues, some quality RB play. So, again, Brady hasn't had to be a world beater in order for this team to be successful. On a side note with Brady, I can't get out of my head the fact that the Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassel as their QB for 15 1/2 games. That's a good 5 years ago now, but considering we now know who Matt Cassel really is, it just makes me feel like Brady has been quite lucky to be surrounded by a very good team for so long (and that only recently we've seen what can happen when the team around him isn't as strong).

 

One last thought about Manning as MVP - the Broncos lost their starting pro bowl left tackle for the year early on, and Manning hasn't really missed a beat. So to whoever posted about how most other QBs would be injured or dead if they played for Seattle, I think you underestimate Peyton's ability to get rid of the ball and mask offensive line weakness with smart reads and quick, correct decisions and execution.

 

ETA - Regarding Rodgers, just think of where the Bears would be if they had to trot out the likes of Scot Tolzien, Graham Harrell, Matt Flynn, etc. with Cutler hurt. Cutler would look like an MVP candidate too.

 

Great point about Brady and the year Cassell had in relief. It does show that while Brady is good and a key part, that even a backup type QB could come in and do pretty well.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

How in the heck did this thread turn from a Peyton / Foles to Wilson / Romo

[wpayers]

How in the heck did this thread turn from a Peyton / Foles to Wilson / Romo

 

I do not know but it's turned into a doozy. I'm just waiting for it to focus on Ryan Leaf. That's about where it's heading.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

I do not know but it's turned into a doozy. I'm just waiting for it to focus on Ryan Leaf. That's about where it's heading.

 

I must be drunk I read that as Romo's Relief

[flemingd]

How in the heck did this thread turn from a Peyton / Foles to Wilson / Romo

 

 

Because Manning/Foles was a slaughter, at least Romo/Wilson is a fair fight. Well not realy, but it's a lot closer.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

This doesn't deserve its own thread but since we are talking about Great QB's

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000293323/article/tim-tebow-offered-contract-by-italys-milano-seamen

[Big John]

This doesn't deserve its own thread but since we are talking about Great QB's

 

http://www.nfl.com/n...s-milano-seamen

 

 

So Darin's sister will be travelling to Italy too?

[flemingd]

Tebow to join Seamen.

 

Perfection.