Grits and Shins Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) People get convicted of murder all the time without the presence of dead body. And there's a difference between lack of evidence and destroyed evidence. Nobody is convicted of murder without evidence or at least testimony from eye witnesses ... and you are presuming that the destroyed phone had evidence, that assumption doesn't hold up in court either. Edited September 3, 2015 by Grits and Shins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I was just referring to it in the context of Richard1233 rant about people not liking Brady because he is a winner. I think it makes sense that they had no grounds to suspend him. But don't act like people have no reason to assume he is guilty of this when he destroyed his phone. Anybody with some common sense knows why he did that I highly advise researching into this a bit more. The phone issue is completely overblown and quite honestly seems like a smear tactic by the NFL. Don't forget, the NFL already had all the communications from the company issued phones of the equipment staff (as evidenced in the Wells report) and there was no smoking gun there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I was just referring to it in the context of Richard1233 rant about people not liking Brady because he is a winner. I think it makes sense that they had no grounds to suspend him. But don't act like people have no reason to assume he is guilty of this when he destroyed his phone. Anybody with some common sense knows why he did that Do I think it is likely he is guilty, certainly. But I am firmly in the court of you can't convict without evidence. If it had been me I would never have turned my phone over either, the NFL has no claim on his personal property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I highly advise researching into this a bit more. The phone issue is completely overblown and quite honestly seems like a smear tactic by the NFL. Don't forget, the NFL already had all the communications from the company issued phones of the equipment staff (as evidenced in the Wells report) and there was no smoking gun there. In addition look how it was misrepresented to ESPN in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) I highly advise researching into this a bit more. The phone issue is completely overblown and quite honestly seems like a smear tactic by the NFL. Don't forget, the NFL already had all the communications from the company issued phones of the equipment staff (as evidenced in the Wells report) and there was no smoking gun there. I am not trying to get into an in depth discussion here, personally I could have cared less what happened. Regardless of the reason he destroyed his phone, in the court of public opinion it makes him look guilty, right or wrong. Yes a lot of people hate the Patriots because they are jealous, but they have brought it on themselves as well. Edited September 3, 2015 by Finn5033 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Do I think it is likely he is guilty, certainly. But I am firmly in the court of you can't convict without evidence. If it had been me I would never have turned my phone over either, the NFL has no claim on his personal property. Yes I agree with you, I am just referring to public opinion about Brady not the legal side of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I am not trying to get into an in depth discussion here, personally I could have cared less what happened. Regardless of the reason he destroyed his phone in the court of public opinion it makes him look guilty, right or wrong. Yes a lot of people hate the Patriots because they are jealous, but they have brought it on themselves as well. See that is the thing .. personal bias (hatred of the Patriots) has no place in determining when a rule has been broken and when/what punishment should be administered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfv87 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 The thing that gets me frustrated with all the haters is that many qbs have come out and said they like the balls over or underinflated. Mostly over but still every qb does it but everyone wants brady suspended cuz he's a winner. Everyone has lost to him over the past 14 years at some point or ur just tired of seeing him win. There's no proof of any wrong doing in a country where you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. And my last point is that brady played better after halftime when the balls were aired up more so who says he had a competitive advantage at all when the pats were barely winning and brady threw a pick with the under inflated balls. If u want brady suspended u are obviously just a hater because u and no one else has any evidence of wrong doing. U are just saying it's obvious he knew, why? Because the Colts threw him under the bus? Cuz kraft mistakenly excepted penalties he shouldn't have and now regrets? Because all these former players who lost to the pats a lot over their careers have said the pats need to be hit hard by the nfl? Or is it cuz ur a fan of one of those players/teams that have been getting killed by the pats for so many years. This suspension was out of line and rediculous from the beginning and anyone who thinks the nfl was right in this situation doesn't understand or have any real respect for the game. Without proof of anything u just say he's guilty. Rediculous! Go pats! #bradyisfree!!! We may be "haters" but you sir are a "homer" the fact that he played better with the legal footballs only proves further that TB is a great QB and resorting to this kind of school yard cheating crap should be beneath him and the pats. What I wanted and other Fans wanted (IMO) out of the Pats and Brady was to just own up to it and say yeah we let some air out but it didn't matter, we won by even more with the legal balls... BUT NO they conspired to with hold information had employees take the fall and Brady destroyed evidence (cell phone)... I mean who does that, everybody has 2-3 old cell phones laying a drawer in case you break your new one right? Brady just needed to say yeah we wanted the balls underinflated some more but we may have gone just under the limit by mistake, when it was found out we used the other balls as directed and we kicked their A$$e$ in the second half. The report then would have been OVER... Did that happen? Did he then lie? Did the team go into cover up mode for their Million $$ QB? YEP! This was handled about as bad by the NFL as it could be because it was a stupid thing to do and then made worse when everybody went into cover-up mode. In the end should it have been a nothing incident but instead it showed the power of trying to cover up something and how it makes it worse. Dumb. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) See that is the thing .. personal bias (hatred of the Patriots) has no place in determining when a rule has been broken and when/what punishment should be administered. I'm not sure if this is just a general statement or you are directing it at me, but I never said it should. Edited September 3, 2015 by Finn5033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I'm not sure if you are directing this at me, but I never said it should. You said "Yes a lot of people hate the Patriots because they are jealous, but they have brought it on themselves as well." To me that implies that NE/Brady was being persecuted in this case because people hated them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hezagenius Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Do I think it is likely he is guilty, certainly. But I am firmly in the court of you can't convict without evidence. If it had been me I would never have turned my phone over either, the NFL has no claim on his personal property. You may be firmly in the court that you can't convict without evidence, but that doesn't mean you are correct. Spoliation of evidence: Spoliation of evidence is a term often used during the process of discovery. Spoliation of evidence happens when a document or information that is required for discovery is destroyed or altered significantly. If a person negligently or intentionally withholds or destroys relevant information that will be required in an action is liable for spoliation of evidence. When a crucial document is lost by spoliation, the courts may try to infer the original information by applying spoliation inference rule. Spoliation inference rule is a negative evidentiary inference. When applying the rule, courts will review the altered document with inference against the spoliator and in favor of the opposing party. The theory behind spoliation inference is that when a party has destroyed evidence, it shows that the party had consciousness of guilt or other reasons to avoid evidence. Hence, the court will conclude that the evidence was not in spoliator’s favor. Spoliation of evidence is an act that is prohibited by American Bar Association’s Model Rules of Professional Conduct, Rule 37 of Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and Title 18 United States Code. Sanctions for spoliation are preventative, punitive and remedial in nature. Separate tort actions are also permitted. - See more at: http://civilprocedure.uslegal.com/discovery/spoliation-of-evidence/#sthash.VBVEkq8I.dpuf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) You said "Yes a lot of people hate the Patriots because they are jealous, but they have brought it on themselves as well." To me that implies that NE/Brady was being persecuted in this case because people hated them. What it means is that a lot of people hate them because they are winners. A lot people hate them even more because of spygate, and now there is even more hate because of deflate gate. I am not talking about the legal side of it Edited September 3, 2015 by Finn5033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I am not trying to get into an in depth discussion here, personally I could have cared less what happened. Regardless of the reason he destroyed his phone, in the court of public opinion it makes him look guilty, right or wrong. Yes a lot of people hate the Patriots because they are jealous, but they have brought it on themselves as well. Yet you and others come here and proclaim guilt. How can you make an informed decision if you do not have all the facts? How is that right, how is that just? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Yet you and others come here and proclaim guilt. How can you make an informed decision if you do not have all the facts? How is that right, how is that just? Wow you guys are way too sensitive about this. I never said I personally think he is guilty or not. I said the cell phone thing makes him look guilty. I am not proclaiming anything Edited September 3, 2015 by Finn5033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 You may be firmly in the court that you can't convict without evidence, but that doesn't mean you are correct. Spoliation of evidence: Spoliation of evidence is a term often used during the process of discovery. Spoliation of evidence happens when a document or information that is required for discovery is destroyed or altered significantly. If a person negligently or intentionally withholds or destroys relevant information that will be required in an action is liable for spoliation of evidence. When a crucial document is lost by spoliation, the courts may try to infer the original information by applying spoliation inference rule. Spoliation inference rule is a negative evidentiary inference. When applying the rule, courts will review the altered document with inference against the spoliator and in favor of the opposing party. The theory behind spoliation inference is that when a party has destroyed evidence, it shows that the party had consciousness of guilt or other reasons to avoid evidence. Hence, the court will conclude that the evidence was not in spoliator’s favor. Spoliation of evidence is an act that is prohibited by American Bar Association’s Model Rules of Professional Conduct, Rule 37 of Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and Title 18 United States Code. Sanctions for spoliation are preventative, punitive and remedial in nature. Separate tort actions are also permitted. - See more at: http://civilprocedure.uslegal.com/discovery/spoliation-of-evidence/#sthash.VBVEkq8I.dpuf The problem here ... the NFL wanted his phone, they had no right to his phone. Tom Brady was under ZERO obligation to make his phone available and had every right to do to whatever he wanted to do with his own person phone. As I have been told countless times Goodell was not operating in a court of law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heehawks Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 DMD - Any idea when you'll have adjustments up for Brady's full season? Or have your projections been based on a full 16 game season? ETA: I guess this might also impact the other NE players too...??? Depending on how you made your initial assessments I suppose though. So far, this is the most relevant post in this thread. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Putting aside the argument on any competitive advantage, you are conveniently leaving out one thing. Brady destroyed his cell phone rather than turn it over as asked. That alone looks bad and makes him look guilty.incorrect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 This ruling was never about innocence or guilt, it's about the process. Nothing more, nothing less. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard1233 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Putting aside the argument on any competitive advantage, you are conveniently leaving out one thing. Brady destroyed his cell phone rather than turn it over as asked. That alone looks bad and makes him look guilty. Brady made it clear before getting rid of his cell phone that he wasn't going to turn it over anyways. It's irrelevant. And once again not about "looking bad" it's about proving that he did something wrong and there is NO PROOF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Right or wrong, in the eyes of the public it makes him look guilty. It doesn't matter that he had no legal obligation to turn it over. This is not me making chit up, it's just the way it is, like it or not. Don't shoot the messenger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard1233 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 We may be "haters" but you sir are a "homer" the fact that he played better with the legal footballs only proves further that TB is a great QB and resorting to this kind of school yard cheating crap should be beneath him and the pats. What I wanted and other Fans wanted (IMO) out of the Pats and Brady was to just own up to it and say yeah we let some air out but it didn't matter, we won by even more with the legal balls... BUT NO they conspired to with hold information had employees take the fall and Brady destroyed evidence (cell phone)... I mean who does that, everybody has 2-3 old cell phones laying a drawer in case you break your new one right? Brady just needed to say yeah we wanted the balls underinflated some more but we may have gone just under the limit by mistake, when it was found out we used the other balls as directed and we kicked their A$$e$ in the second half. The report then would have been OVER... Did that happen? Did he then lie? Did the team go into cover up mode for their Million $$ QB? YEP! This was handled about as bad by the NFL as it could be because it was a stupid thing to do and then made worse when everybody went into cover-up mode. In the end should it have been a nothing incident but instead it showed the power of trying to cover up something and how it makes it worse. Dumb. Yes maybe that's all people wanted but what if, just what if brady really didn't know anything about this? There's no proof that he even knew about it. Why should the pats or brady admit to knowing about it if they didn't know about it. Brady could have easily made a comment that he likes his balls a little more deflated then most and the ball guys took it upon themselves to do this. Why should brady admit anything? He has said he didn't know anything from the beginning so just cuz the media has lied about FACTS and turned hearsay into FACTS to make brady look bad and then when caught in lies or miscommunication they turn their head and don't say anything about it. Doesn't it look worse on these guys and I'm talking about mortenson from espn, and any other member of the media that heard the accusation and just jumps on it like it's a fact. There's not one single thing that PROVES brady knew anything about it so why should he admit to knowing about it whe he may not have known about it? And all these penalties on the pats and brady are unprecedented and they should accept the penalties cuz people wanted then to admit knowing about it? What if they didn't know about it? Why admit something if u really didn't know about it? It doesn't matter what people think, no one has been proved guilty, u and many others are assuming they're guilty of at least knowing about it. Why? The wells report was BS. He went into the investigation just looking to prove brady guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the outlaw Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I was just referring to it in the context of Richard1233 rant about people not liking Brady because he is a winner. I think it makes sense that they had no grounds to suspend him. But don't act like people have no reason to assume he is guilty of this when he destroyed his phone. Anybody with some common sense knows why he did that Yes, because he didn't want any naked selfies of Giselle leaked to TMZ...nor, would I if I were in his shoes... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmytose Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I didn't want to make another thread about Brady, but this question is slightly off topic regarding the discussion here. Where do you rank Brady now that he's playing a full season? I was leaning towards pulling him from the bottom of tier 2 towards the top. In line with guys like Wilson, Big Ben and Brees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Yes, because he didn't want any naked selfies of Giselle leaked to TMZ...nor, would I if I were in his shoes... Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I didn't want to make another thread about Brady, but this question is slightly off topic regarding the discussion here. Where do you rank Brady now that he's playing a full season? I was leaning towards pulling him from the bottom of tier 2 towards the top. In line with guys like Wilson, Big Ben and Brees. I agree, there are a lot of people that got great value on him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.