League Issue

[BiggieFries]

In my local, we instituted a 5 keeper max starting with last year's season. We have not declared our keepers as of yet, and a trade went through the other day that included a player that one of the team owners would more than likely not have kept. In my opinion this trade should be reversed as it is somewhat violating the integrity of the "5 keeper" rule.

 

To be fair and honest, there is no rule about how trading in the off season should go. However, I believe that since the league is a 5 keeper max league, it would be illogic to trade a player that you technically don't own yet. So I don't think that a "rule" would need to be established. I would think that saying "you can only keep 5 players max and 2 players min" would mean that you shouldn't trade anyone until your keepers are declared as this puts other teams at a disadvantage come draft time. Those "extra" players that should have been thrown back into the draft pool are no longer available to other drafters since they have been traded away to another team.

 

What they are doing/saying (the team that was involved in the trade and arguing that what they did is fine) is technically turning our league from a 5 player keeper to a form of dynasty league.

 

What say you? Do you believe that since it is a 5 keeper max league, that it should be understood that you cannot trade any of your players away until you have declared keepers? Or are you of the opinion that since no rule was hard coded into the league "rules", that the trade should stand and people can trade their players from their "pool" at will?

 

Only one trade has gone through so far so it wouldn't be devastating to the league if it is reversed.

 

If you need any other questions answered, just ask.

[Piranha]

I am also in a keeper league, and I believe the way it works for us is that you actually own everyone on your roster from last season, until the keepers are due to be announced. After that, everyone who is not 'kept' falls back into the pool for the upcoming draft.

[Big John]

Players in keeper leagues can be traded prior to the keeper deadline. The only rule I put in is that if you are forfeiting a draft pick in order to keep a player, you can't trade that draft pick.

[Savage Beatings]

I completely disagree with your take on this one. Part of the fun of keepers is to unload your junk on someone else in return for a player or players that you think are worthwhile. Not only should the trade stand, but the rules should be clarified to ensure that it stays that way in the future.

[Jackass]

I completely disagree with your take on this one. Part of the fun of keepers is to unload your junk on someone else in return for a player or players that you think are worthwhile. Not only should the trade stand, but the rules should be clarified to ensure that it stays that way in the future.

+1. part of the point of the keeper league is trades before keepers are declared

[Grits and Shins]

Whether or not the player would have been kept is irrelevant. Teams that have 6 viable keepers should have the option to improve their draft position or upgrade one of their players by trading.

 

Frankly I fail to see why a keeper league would NOT allow this kind of thing.

[URLACHERisGOD]

For instance, I traded away Deuce McAllister, Ernie Sims, and Jonathan Vilma before the keeper deadline for Brian Westbrook. The guy I was trading had no defense and I intended on already keeping Urlacher and Bulluck so could not keep Sims and Vilma. Westbrook is a nice upgrade from Deuce.

 

The downfall is: now Sims and Vilma aren't in the player pool for me to redraft. But, that's the fun of trading before the keeper deadline. I wouldn't have it any other way!

[i_am_the_swammi]

Points well taken, but consider this scenario:

 

I am in a 3-player keeper league, and no more than one player from an position can be kept (i.e 1 QB, 1 RB, and 1 WR are usually kept).

 

Team A had two stud RBs last year (Jackson and Alexander). Team B's best RB was Kevin Jones (not keeper materiel). Team A and Team B are in different divisions, and are good friends.

 

Team B approached Team A, saying "I'll give you my 8th round draft choice for Alexander". Team A accepted the offer.

 

Everyone was outraged, and collusion was suspected, but here was their argument: If Team A had not done the deal, they would have released Alexander and gotten nothing in return. By doing the trade, at least he got a pick.

 

Team B's keepers are now Manning, Alexander and Steve Smith, making him one of the best teams in the league going into the draft. He also has a high 1st-round pick, based on his dismal performance last year.

 

Doesn't really seem fair, and the integrity of the league was tested, but nothing can be done....unless offseason trades were banned (which we are considering going forward to prevent this from happening again).

 

Biggie has a point.....

[URLACHERisGOD]

Everyone was outraged, and collusion was suspected, but here was their argument: If Team A had not done the deal, they would have released Alexander and gotten nothing in return. By doing the trade, at least he got a pick.

You should have offered a 7th rounder. ;-) That's half the fun of trading before the keeper deadline. Scouring other owners teams and trying to project who you think they will keep. In this guy's case he had to choose from SJax and SA. Unless I had a better RB keeper than SA, I'd have been throwing trades at him as soon as the season was over.

Edited August 10, 2007 by URLACHERisGOD

[BiggieFries]

Points well taken, but consider this scenario:

 

I am in a 3-player keeper league, and no more than one player from an position can be kept (i.e 1 QB, 1 RB, and 1 WR are usually kept).

 

Team A had two stud RBs last year (Jackson and Alexander). Team B's best RB was Kevin Jones (not keeper materiel). Team A and Team B are in different divisions, and are good friends.

 

Team B approached Team A, saying "I'll give you my 8th round draft choice for Alexander". Team A accepted the offer.

 

Everyone was outraged, and collusion was suspected, but here was their argument: If Team A had not done the deal, they would have released Alexander and gotten nothing in return. By doing the trade, at least he got a pick.

 

Team B's keepers are now Manning, Alexander and Steve Smith, making him one of the best teams in the league going into the draft. He also has a high 1st-round pick, based on his dismal performance last year.

 

Doesn't really seem fair, and the integrity of the league was tested, but nothing can be done....unless offseason trades were banned (which we are considering going forward to prevent this from happening again).

 

Biggie has a point.....

 

This is basically what I'm trying to say. Also, when it comes to a keeper league, I don't believe that your team (after the end of the season and before the declaration of keepers and the draft) consists of 15 players. Your team is only a subset of those 15 (up to 5 of them). So how can I, in good conscience, trade a player I only "potentially" own? My team is pretty decent (not fantastic by any stretch of the imagination) and I actually have 6 or 7 players that I wouldn't mind keeping. That's 2 more than the allowed amount. How can I trade them away when I don't really own them? I don't think I should be allowed to as it takes away potential upgrades for weaker teams in the draft.

 

I think it has to do with the fact that it just seems illogical to me, but I do agree, though, that it would be a lot more fun to do the trades before the keepers are declared.

[i_am_the_swammi]

You should have offered a 7th rounder. ;-) That's half the fun of trading before the keeper deadline. Scouring other owners teams and trying to project who you think they will keep. In this guy's case he had to choose from SJax and SA. Unless I had a better RB keeper than SA, I'd have been throwing trades at him as soon as the season was over.

 

We have a 10-team league, so almost all of the other teams had RB keepers that were equal to or better than Alexander (Think Top-9 RBs...the worst RB keeper is Parker or Maroney, IMO). No one was going to throw an offer to the Alexander owner except Team B, who had Kevin Jones.

 

I agree with you, half the fun of keeper leagues is scouring your opponent's rosters for deals to upgrade your team. However, would it be so bad to institute a trade-deadline at the end of the prior year? Say, Week 14? That way, the Alexander owner would have to really think hard before unloading Alexander for minimally ridiculous value.

Edited August 14, 2007 by i_am_the_swammi

[StormChasers]

I completely disagree with you Biggie. What makes keeper leagues interesting is the ability to trade players for draft picks that you may or may not be keeping. When the season ends your roster is your roster until you turn in your keepers. Owners should be allowed to trade as they see fit to improve their teams particularly if they have good players that would be thrown back into the draft.

 

I think you downgrade the fun and value of keeper leagues the way you want to approach this.

[Savage Beatings]

This is basically what I'm trying to say. Also, when it comes to a keeper league, I don't believe that your team (after the end of the season and before the declaration of keepers and the draft) consists of 15 players. Your team is only a subset of those 15 (up to 5 of them). So how can I, in good conscience, trade a player I only "potentially" own? My team is pretty decent (not fantastic by any stretch of the imagination) and I actually have 6 or 7 players that I wouldn't mind keeping. That's 2 more than the allowed amount. How can I trade them away when I don't really own them? I don't think I should be allowed to as it takes away potential upgrades for weaker teams in the draft.

 

I think it has to do with the fact that it just seems illogical to me, but I do agree, though, that it would be a lot more fun to do the trades before the keepers are declared.

 

It looks like everyone here overwhelmingly disagrees with your position on this one.

 

The only way that your stance makes sense to me would be if you force owners to declare their 5 keepers immediately after the season has ended (which I think we can all agree would suck).

[BiggieFries]

I completely disagree with you Biggie. What makes keeper leagues interesting is the ability to trade players for draft picks that you may or may not be keeping. When the season ends your roster is your roster until you turn in your keepers. Owners should be allowed to trade as they see fit to improve their teams particularly if they have good players that would be thrown back into the draft.

 

I think you downgrade the fun and value of keeper leagues the way you want to approach this.

 

Although I agree that it would be more fun to trade and scour other teams for trades, etc, I disagree with the bolded part. Once the season ends, IMO, your team no longer is your entire roster, but a subset of it. IMO, once you start trading players before you declared your actual keepers, you've turned your keeper league into a dynasty league. Let me ask you this then.. (please put aside the fact that it's more fun to trade everyone) once you declare your keepers, can you still trade those old players you owned before declaring?

[Grits and Shins]

Although I agree that it would be more fun to trade and scour other teams for trades, etc, I disagree with the bolded part. Once the season ends, IMO, your team no longer is your entire roster, but a subset of it. IMO, once you start trading players before you declared your actual keepers, you've turned your keeper league into a dynasty league. Let me ask you this then.. (please put aside the fact that it's more fun to trade everyone) once you declare your keepers, can you still trade those old players you owned before declaring?

 

So at season's end you immediately declare your keepers? If not then until keepers are declared each and every player on an owner's roster his available to be kept by that owner. This means owners still own their entire rosters until keepers are declared. Who I keep depends on a number of factors that include but may not necessarily be limited to 1) who I can trade, 2) who I can get in trade, 3) movement in the NFL, 4) perceived value and 5) draft spot I have to forfeit

 

So to answer your question once keepers are declared the players that are not kept are immediately released into the free agent pool and in your case all teams have only the 5 (or less) keepers that they declared. At this time trades may only occur between players that were declared as keepers.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Grits and Shins

[Big Country]

Sorry Biggie, I too disagree with your assessment here, and have a multitude of posts in the advice forum where I continuously tell every owner in a keeper league that keeps less than their entire roster to constantly shop every player on their roster in a search for draft picks or opportunities to improve their keeper players.

 

You can put a roster freeze in place until keepers are announced, essentially locking the league up until after the keeper annuncement date, but IMO this ruins a lot of the fun and strategy of a partial keeper league, but, without that rule in place, the full rosters are part of the teams and can be traded as the owners see best fitting their teams.

[Big Country]

So to answer your question once keepers are declared the players that are not kept are immediately released into the free agent pool and in your case all teams have only the 5 (or less) keepers that they declared. At this time trades may only occur between players that were declared as keepers.

 

Agree 100%. You own the entire roster and can do with it as you please until such point as you must declare your keeper players and thus release from your roster all non-kept players. At that point you no longer have those players' rights, but up until that keeper declaration deadline, you still had their rights.

[i_am_the_swammi]

The only way that your stance makes sense to me would be if you force owners to declare their 5 keepers immediately after the season has ended

 

Not really...just impose an off-season ban on trades.

 

I agree with you, forcing owners to decalre keepers in january for the next season is not the answer...injuries, trades, free agency affects who you might keep.

 

But imposing a trade ban once the prior season ends would prevent obvious one-sided trades (like the scenario I describe above). For the most part, off-season trading is excellent and fun....but watching an owner trading a stud for dirt (or lose the stud for nothing) affects the integrity of the league. There should be a way to have your cake and eat it, too.

[BiggieFries]

Oh I also forgot to mention that you lose a round of drafting for every player you keep. So if everyone keeps 5 and one guy keep 3, he'll draft 2 players before everyone else. Sorry, forgot to throw that in there.

 

I think it's the way my mind works. If the wording were changed from "5 keeper max" to "keep however many you want" (Which I would be fine with), I wouldn't have made this post. I seem to be a stickler for semantics with the way things are worded. If it says that we can only keep 5 players then in my mind my team once the season ends will have up to and including 5 players. And until those players are decided upon and declared I can't touch any players in my pool of 15.

[The Wolf]

I completely disagree with your take on this one. Part of the fun of keepers is to unload your junk on someone else in return for a player or players that you think are worthwhile. Not only should the trade stand, but the rules should be clarified to ensure that it stays that way in the future.

 

+1

[BiggieFries]

Sorry Biggie, I too disagree with your assessment here, and have a multitude of posts in the advice forum where I continuously tell every owner in a keeper league that keeps less than their entire roster to constantly shop every player on their roster in a search for draft picks or opportunities to improve their keeper players.

 

This is what I'm kind of getting at. You tell people to trade players that will not be on their final roster? How can you trade someone that's not really on your team just because you happened to have owned them last season?

 

I think it's just a semantics thing that I can't get over. What can I tell ya, I'm a fuddy-duddy.

[Big Country]

This is what I'm kind of getting at. You tell people to trade players that will not be on their final roster? How can you trade someone that's not really on your team just because you happened to have owned them last season?

 

I think it's just a semantics thing that I can't get over. What can I tell ya, I'm a fuddy-duddy.

 

Because THEY ARE ON YOUR TEAM until such point as they are released. If your keeper declaration date is August 1st, then you have until August 1st to do what you will with those players, whether that means sit on your hands, announce who yo uare keeping and release the rest in March or make trades (unless, as noted above, prohibited by the rules)

[Grits and Shins]

Oh I also forgot to mention that you lose a round of drafting for every player you keep. So if everyone keeps 5 and one guy keep 3, he'll draft 2 players before everyone else. Sorry, forgot to throw that in there.

 

I think it's the way my mind works. If the wording were changed from "5 keeper max" to "keep however many you want" (Which I would be fine with), I wouldn't have made this post. I seem to be a stickler for semantics with the way things are worded. If it says that we can only keep 5 players then in my mind my team once the season ends will have up to and including 5 players. And until those players are decided upon and declared I can't touch any players in my pool of 15.

 

It makes sense that you lose a round of drafting for every player you keep ... so the only thing in question was did you lose the draft spot where the player was drafted or draft positions in the first 5 rounds depending on the number of your keepers. I presumed the later since you did not specifiy the first. It makes no difference in the analysis.

 

Since your keepers are not declared after the season is over nobody knows which 5 players on an owner's roster are the keepers. That means I have the rights to EVERY player on my roster ... these players are on MY roster until I declare which 5 I will keep ... they are mine. As such I have the right to trade ANY of my players.

 

So you tell me ... how can the league decide which players are the keeper 5 and which are the "untouchable 15" without a keeper declaration? The guys I think I might keep in June may be very different than the guys I actually keep in August. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to make any trades in June because my 5 might change? Or does it mean that I have to declare my keepers before trading?

 

Sorry Biggie I simply do not agree with you. Until keepers are declared the players on my roster are mine to do with as I please. If I can trade 5 guys away for draft picks and keep 5 other players it is my team and my right to do so. That is the nature of keeper leagues. This does not make it a dynasty league. I participate in keeper, dynasty and re-draft leagues.

[Big Country]

But imposing a trade ban once the prior season ends would prevent obvious one-sided trades (like the scenario I describe above).

 

I guess I don't see the scenario you described as being a one-sided trade. One owner got to improve their RB keeper. Another owner got a draft pick for essentially nothing. The only reason for the guy with Alexander to not take the deal (of course, if I were him I'd have approached every team in the league about Alexander and taken the highest offer) would be if he somehow had that roster and had the first pick in the draft where he was assured of drafting him back (assuming he would be the best available player in the draft, which is likely)

[BiggieFries]

I've had some time to think about it and I see I have been thinking about this the wrong way. This is akin to an NFL team that is about to lose a player due to his contract being almost done. They basically have 3 choices with that player:

 

1) Re-sign him (aka: one of your keepers)

Let his contract expire and allow him to hit the FA wire (aka: let him go into your draftable pool)

iii) Trade him to try and improve your team (aka: er.. trade him to try and improve your team)

 

Thanks for all the input guys! I have seen the light! And it burns!!!

Edited August 10, 2007 by BiggieFries