Class vs. Classless

[Bronco Billy]

I cannot recall ever seeing a team throw a pass up 40+ to 0 in the NFL on any down. EVER. Big J? Anyone?

 

I can't. Not in the pros.

 

This isn't about not playing 100% to the final whistle. This is about a complete lack of respect for one's opponents and preferring to take a classless path rather than just shortening the game and running the clock out. I also agree - other teams watch that, and there are still players in the game who have a pair and don't mind dishing out tit-for-tat. In others words, if NE decides that sportsmanship is meaningless and that they don't have to accord an opponent any modicum of respect, then their opponents may decide to play by the same rules. If I were Brady, I'd start watching my kness...

[Duchess Jack]

I can't. Not in the pros.

 

This isn't about not playing 100% to the final whistle. This is about a complete lack of respect for one's opponents and preferring to take a classless path rather than just shortening the game and running the clock out. I also agree - other teams watch that, and there are still players in the game who have a pair and don't mind dishing out tit-for-tat. In others words, if NE decides that sportsmanship is meaningless and that they don't have to accord an opponent any modicum of respect, then their opponents may decide to play by the same rules. If I were Brady, I'd start watching my kness...

BB

 

Where do you draw the line though?

 

The only thing fun about that game was how silly it got. Otherwise it would have been a great team beating on a bad team.

[Big John]

i cant wait til they pull that poopy poopster poop poop poop against a playoff eliminated and pissed off team playing for nothing else than to ruin the pats season.

Brings back 1986 and Charles Martin to Jim McMahon.

[Big John]

I cannot recall ever seeing a team throw a pass up 40+ to 0 in the NFL on any down. EVER. Big J? Anyone?

 

I had seen that in early blowouts in the 2nd quarter. (1983 GB/TB) But after halftime, they shut down running the clock down.

[SuperCharger]

"I've been coaching too long," Belichick said. "I remember being on that side. When I was coaching defense it was my job to keep the score down, not theirs. When you're playing defense it's your job to stop them. It's not (the offense's) job to not score. It's like I tell the offense, what the (bleep) do you think I send you guys out there for? To punt? We have a punt team for that. That's not your job. Your job is to go out there and score points. If you come off the field and you haven't scored points you haven't done your job."

 

It's hard to not respect this coaching philosophy. But that doesn't mean your starters have to be in there during the 4th when you have a 5 TD lead. Belicheck should know this and for Brady's sake should start sitting him down a few drives earlier during games like this. But just because the 2nd string is in doesn't mean you have to run the ball into the line each play. I subscribe to the philosophy that the offense has one job todo, score points. Score points each and everytime you take the field, regardless of the score. If the D can't stop you it's their fault, not yours. The Patriots shouldn't be ashamed for doing their jobs, the Redskins and everyone else that gets run over by them should be.

[Bronco Billy]

BB

 

Where do you draw the line though?

 

The only thing fun about that game was how silly it got. Otherwise it would have been a great team beating on a bad team.

 

No matter where you draw the line, NE crossed it. They should have run the ball between the tackles until the game was over. If WAS can't stop that, knowing it is coming, it's on them. But to pull the classless crap NE did puts all other players on all other teams on notice that NE will use every means to embarrass them completely long after the outcome of the game is decided. That begs for bad actions by opponents - and if something like that happens, NE can look no farther than itself, because it brought it onto themselves.

 

Respect for opponents is critical in a game like pro football, where the players are so big & strong and move so quickly. Sportsmanship ensures that the game is played as safely as possible, and even then injuries happen regularly. Now the rules of ethical & sporting play have been thrown out the window by NE. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they get cheap shots taken at them periodically for the rest of the season - and I'm sure there will be plenty of whining by Belichek & the NE players when it happens. They brought it upon themselves - so be it.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Bronco Billy

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

I have no problem playing until the end of the game but let me break it down for you simply. A classy good or great team when up some ridiculous amount of points to nothing, nods to the other coach (figuratively speaking) pulls his starters and plays his 2nd teamers and the opposing coach does the same, both acknowledging to each other that this game is over and let’s get out of this one with our starters healthy. New England just doesn't think like that.

 

No Quarter, No Mercy…..Fine we are going play Brady and everyone else until we break every record we can and at your expense.

 

That is were it gets interesting. There are 8 games left in the season and every team now knows that you’re going to get embarrassed if you don't have the talent to keep up. New England has just invited every cheap shot and late hit for the rest of the season.

 

When Gibbs runs off the field on you, you know you did wrong. Gibbs is a Classy guy and that sent a message to all the rest of the teams left to play the Pats.(Conflicting info here, but I believe it is correct as I watched Belichick look for Gibbs and did not find him)

 

It's one thing to be great and know it but there is a fine line of respect and resentment. Beat a team into the ground fine, but offer them Quarter at some point, because if you don't that's flat out disrespectful and there is always a point in a game like that it could have been offered. Gibbs knew that and that's why he walked off.

 

They may just have taken the whistle out of the game for the rest of their season and some pissed off 300 pounder may just not care about being fined or suspended just to please the rest of the league and plant Brady on his head, just to send a "returned to sender message" that the Pats just sent out the last two weeks!

 

This is a dangerous league to be embarrassing teams and coaches without Quarter!

 

Mark it down, the season just got a whole lot tougher for the Patriots players and they had better play past the whistle from here on out.............

 

Not saying I didn't want to see Brady on the sidelines earlier, but it's interesting you post this, being a Cowboys fan.

 

Jimmy Johnson said on the Fox post game how he loves this Patriots team, and loves the fact that they don't let up, don't stop trying to score, and step on other teams throats once they get a lead. He has no problem with anything he's seen so far. Just thopught it was interesting.

[detlef]

For those of you fixating on the fact that it was NE's 2nd string QB going for it on 4th down...

 

1-10-NE12 (2:02) H.Evans up the middle to NE 15 for 3 yards (K.Golston, D.Evans).

2-7-NE15 (1:21) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to R.Moss ran ob at NE 21 for 6 yards.

3-1-NE21 (:48) NE 71-Hochstein eligible. L.Maroney left tackle to NE 23 for 2 yards (H.Blades).

1-10-NE23 (:05) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short left to M.Rivers.

2-10-NE23 (:02) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle to J.Gaffney to NE 44 for 21 yards (L.Landry).

PENALTY on NE-W.Welker, Offensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at NE 23 - No Play.

Fourth Quarter

New England Patriots continued...

2-20-NE13 (15:00) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to W.Welker to NE 24 for 11 yards (K.Campbell).

3-9-NE24 (14:17) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to D.Stallworth to NE 39 for 15 yards (L.Fletcher).

1-10-NE39 (13:34) H.Evans right guard to NE 49 for 10 yards (S.Taylor).

1-10-NE49 (12:50) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep right to R.Moss pushed ob at WAS 16 for 35 yards (S.Springs).

1-10-WAS16 (12:25) H.Evans left end to WAS 8 for 8 yards (D.Macklin, L.Landry).

2-2-WAS8 (11:44) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short right to D.Stallworth.

3-2-WAS8 (11:37) PENALTY on NE-D.Koppen, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 8 - No Play.

3-7-WAS13 (11:37) (Shotgun) K.Faulk right guard to WAS 7 for 6 yards (L.Torrence, M.Washington).

4-1-WAS7 (11:02) T.Brady left guard to WAS 5 for 2 yards (L.Landry, P.Prioleau).

 

At this point, it's 38-0 in the 4th. It's 4th down on the other teams 7 yard line. Rather than kicking a FG, you run your all-world QB? Gee, sounds like "playing the game the right way to me".

 

Notice the amount of plays run out of the shotgun on that drive. Notice how few running plays. That's the amazing thing.

 

I have no problem with leaving the playbook open once you've got your 2nd team in there. After all, if you want to give your back up QB some reps, what good is it if all he does is hand the ball off. I also understand not packing it in early. But not kicking the FG up by 38 is pretty obviously crap.

 

Of course Gibbs isn't going to call him out on this. Frankly no pro coach should. Like many of you have said, that's for HS coaches to worry about. Pro player police themselves in this regard and the Pats had better hope that this sort of thing doesn't come back to bite them in the ass.

Edited October 29, 2007 by detlef

[Duchess Jack]

That begs for bad actions by opponents - and if something like that happens, NE can look no farther than itself, because it brought it onto themselves.

 

This is not the problem of the patriots. they are doing their job. this is a problem of the human condition. people going for cheap shots are the real classless people. they're job isn't to injure people - they are not soldiers (except winslow) their job is to score points or stop the other team from scoring points. they are doing their job. anybody looking to hurt players for this should be locked up

 

at the end of the day though the pats are putting their players at risk. it is a chance they take. they've a goal and their are risks involved. running up the score is not a one sided thing - it can all go terribly wrong. If Brady goes down - their season could be done. ((though you hope its not going to be from some tool looking to cheap shot them)).

 

risk v reward. again - its not one sided.

[Bronco Billy]

This is not the problem of the patriots. they are doing their job. this is a problem of the human condition. people going for cheap shots are the real classless people. they're job isn't to injure people - they are not soldiers (except winslow) their job is to score points or stop the other team from scoring points. they are doing their job. anybody looking to hurt players for this should be locked up

 

When someone makes a statement like this, my first thought is to ask if they have ever played the game of football. To think that one can seperate emotion & phyical action in football is untenable. Make no mistake, NE painted the bullseye squarely upon itself. Sportsmanlike conduct is an integrel part of the game, even when the game has evolved into a huge business. NE made a clear statement that it has no use for ethcal conduct on the field. It did it with the spy program and now it has done it in the way it manages a game when the outcome is well beyond question. That's their perrogative, but there are consequences for those kinds of decisions.

[pig devilz]

whats been lost in this discussion is the dominating performance by the Patriots D.

Mike Vrabel had an outstanding game, to put it mildly.

 

if the Skins had an offense that could produce, they could have kept the Patriots O off the field,

just like Carolina did to Indy on their first drive of the game.... eating up an amazing 11 minutes of the first qrt.

and ending it with a TD.

 

in the NFL, i never view pulling your studs late in the game, when you are blowing the other team out,

as 'sportmanship' or 'class' or whatever you want to call it...but always view it as protecting your studs

from injury....its just to easy to twist an ankle (ask Vinny) or fill in the blank...

 

but, and i say this as a Patriots homer, if any of the starters get injured in one of these blow outs,

BB will lose some of his God-like status here in NE....can you imagine the uproar and outrage if Tom

gets his finger broken by a DE while he's trying to throw a 25 yd pass to Moss in the 4th qrt and the

Patriots leading 38-0??

 

and yes, as i said in one of the other threads on this topic, the Patriots do use this 'garbage time'

for practicing what they feel needs to be better. true.

 

if you watched the game did you notice how pi$$ed Brady was at Koppen for that False Start penalty

on the Wash 8 with 11:30 in the 4th qrt?!....or when he was out of the game and he berated the Official

from the sideline for not calling a PI penalty against Wash on a ball Cassell threw?

 

Brady does not just want to be good, or great for that matter. Brady is seeking perfection on the football field. That is the damn trueth. When they blow out the opponent and Brady or BB say in the post game

press conference, that they 'left plays on the field', 'we can do better' they f'n mean it.

 

That my friend is why the Patriots are so damn good. That, and God given physical talent.

Edited October 29, 2007 by pig devilz

[Doc Holliday]

whats been lost in this discussion is the dominating performance by the Patriots D.

Mike Vrabel had an outstanding game, to put it mildly.

 

if the Skins had an offense that could produce, they could have kept the Patriots O off the field,

just like Carolina did to Indy on their first drive of the game.... eating up an amazing 11 minutes of the first qrt.

and ending it with a TD.

 

in the NFL, i never view pulling your studs late in the game, when you are blowing the other team out,

as 'sportmanship' or 'class' or whatever you want to call it...but always view it as protecting your studs

from injury....its just to easy to twist an ankle (ask Vinny) or fill in the blank...

 

but, and i say this as a Patriots homer, if any of the starters get injured in one of these blow outs,

BB will lose some of his God-like status here in NE....can you imagine the uproar and outrage if Tom

gets his finger broken by a DE while he's trying to throw a 25 yd pass to Moss in the 4th qrt and the

Patriots leading 38-0??

 

and yes, as i said in one of the other threads on this topic, the Patriots do use this 'garbage time'

for practicing what they feel needs to be better. true.

 

if you watched the game did you notice how pi$$ed Brady was at Koppen for that False Start penalty

on the Wash 8 with 11:30 in the 4th qrt?!....or when he was out of the game and he berated the Official

from the sideline for not calling a PI penalty against Wash on a ball Cassell threw?

 

Brady does not just want to be good, or great for that matter. Brady is seeking perfection on the football field. That is the damn trueth. When they blow out the opponent and Brady or BB say in the post game

press conference, that they 'left plays on the field', 'we can do better' they f'n mean it.

 

That my friend is why the Patriots are so damn good. That, and God given physical talent.

 

 

My personal opinion is if Brady got hurt their backup would look like a stud also. Bill Bell is a genius. as much as everyone hates him the dude is the best coach ever. he makes players look like stars who are not and can afford to lose any of them.

 

Not that Brady is not great because he is. but I think they could keep on rolling without him. their defense is great..their O-line is great and their coaching is great. that is all you need to be a contender.

[Cowboyz1]

Why do I have this feeling that what the Patriots "did" yesterday upsets guys on FF message boards more than NFL players?

 

 

You ever played organized football? I'll tell you this. When your getting beat to death and your on the field all game long, tired, hurting, embarrased and wanting to get off the field, you sort of lose it when the other team is trying to put up more points on you by lining up in shot gun. You just want it to stop and you see red for a moment saying "let me just crush this folker once, please" which will make all this pain and humiliation go away. If their running you can't get to him. Watching those Skins players on D when they were dead tired in the 4th after surrendering 52. I could see them saying to eachother eye to eye Sunday, "You get a shot, take it".

[fballfreak]

Good point. And I might add that no one is asking the Pats to stop playing. When games get out of hand like this all you will see is a running game to run out the clock, not passing on 4th-2 while up by 6 TD's. That is damn disrespectful and the Pats deserve every cheap shot they get.

 

:

[Bronco Billy]

You ever played organized football? I'll tell you this. When your getting beat to death and your on the field all game long, tired, hurting, embarrased and wanting to get off the field, you sort of lose it when the other team is trying to put up more points on you by lining up in shot gun. You just want it to stop and you see red for a moment saying "let me just crush this folker once, please" which will make all this pain and humiliation go away. If their running you can't get to him. Watching those Skins players on D when they were dead tired in the 4th after surrendering 52. I could see them saying to eachother eye to eye Sunday, "You get a shot, take it".

 

+1

 

Nice post. I'll add to it that a lot of guys who have played have been in that position at one time or another, and know exactly how it feels. Players who see other teams pile it on after the game is decided - even if they weren't involved in the game - don't forget that kind of behavior easily.

[detlef]

My personal opinion is if Brady got hurt their backup would look like a stud also. Bill Bell is a genius. as much as everyone hates him the dude is the best coach ever. he makes players look like stars who are not and can afford to lose any of them.

 

Not that Brady is not great because he is. but I think they could keep on rolling without him. their defense is great..their O-line is great and their coaching is great. that is all you need to be a contender.

Those of us who watched football in the SF Bay Area in the 80s might have reason to argue with that point. Perhaps Bill could insert another QB and not miss a beat. Well, Walsh's system proved it could. Hell, that offense made Steve Bono look good.

Edited October 29, 2007 by detlef

[mjaytee]

That's BS and you know it. I am certainly not saying NE is not looking great right now but what I am saying is they are playing stupidly when you have your all world QB out there with a 40 point lead itching to break a record while some pissed off Redskin defender is itching to kill him because he's running up the score on them and setting himself up for 8 more teams to take a shot at it. I could care less about what they do or how they do it unitl hopefully we see them again. I am however, pointing out the concequences of their actions and predict what just very well may be their fatal flaw.

 

Live by the beat down, die by the beat down. We shall see won't we........and they sure look like the greatest 8 weeks into the season!

 

Like I said. I am TIRED of seeing GROWN men crying for a PROFESSIONAL football team then using hypotheticals to justify their crying. Yes, Brady could get hurt during a blowout win. He could also get hurt in a 10-10 game during the 2nd quarter. I suppose every quarterback injured this season was because their opponents were seeking revenge for being blown out of a game. Joe Gibbs was not crying. I'm sure most of the Redskins were not crying.

 

To help ease the pain of many of the criers out there, I hereby apologize on the behalf of the opponents who traumatized you with a beat down in either peewee football, intramural volleyball, Connect Four, or whatever game you lost in so bad that you have flashbacks whenever a game like NE-WASH occurs and you are reduced to curling up in the fetal position fighting off the bad memories. Please accept this apology and free yourself from crying when a professional team gets blown out.

Edited October 29, 2007 by mjaytee

[Doc Holliday]

You ever played organized football? I'll tell you this. When your getting beat to death and your on the field all game long, tired, hurting, embarrased and wanting to get off the field, you sort of lose it when the other team is trying to put up more points on you by lining up in shot gun. You just want it to stop and you see red for a moment saying "let me just crush this folker once, please" which will make all this pain and humiliation go away. If their running you can't get to him. Watching those Skins players on D when they were dead tired in the 4th after surrendering 52. I could see them saying to eachother eye to eye Sunday, "You get a shot, take it".

 

 

+1

 

Nice post. I'll add to it that a lot of guys who have played have been in that position at one time or another, and know exactly how it feels. Players who see other teams pile it on after the game is decided - even if they weren't involved in the game - don't forget that kind of behavior easily.

 

 

With 5.53 on the clock in the 4th quarter the Redskins got the ball and had every starter in the game. the last TD scored by a starting player was Cooleys TD.

[Furd]

You ever played organized football? I'll tell you this. When your getting beat to death and your on the field all game long, tired, hurting, embarrased and wanting to get off the field, you sort of lose it when the other team is trying to put up more points on you by lining up in shot gun. You just want it to stop and you see red for a moment saying "let me just crush this folker once, please" which will make all this pain and humiliation go away. If their running you can't get to him. Watching those Skins players on D when they were dead tired in the 4th after surrendering 52. I could see them saying to eachother eye to eye Sunday, "You get a shot, take it".

 

You played in the NFL? Cause I'm talking about professional men here earning a living, not college boys or powder puff.

 

I don't have any problem with a Redskin wanting to inflict some pain on a Patriot. And if he gets the chance and jacks up a Patriot with a legitimate hit, well then god bless him.

 

But I'd be willing to bet and your ilk are more upset this morning about the Patriots "running up the score" than most if not all of the Redskins.

[Grits and Shins]

Would everybody feel better if Washington was awarded a participation trophy?

[Caveman_Nick]

Would everybody feel better if Washington was awarded a participation trophy?

 

 

 

[Doc Holliday]

Those of us who watched football in the SF Bay Area in the 80s might have reason to argue with that point. Perhaps Bill could insert another QB and not miss a beat. Well, Walsh's system proved it could. Hell, that offense made Steve Bono look good.

 

 

I was watching football in the 70's and 80's. and you guys do have reason to argue that point. as do the Steelers,Redskins and Cowboys.my opinion just goes with the Patriots and their coaching staff.

[Cowboyz1]

Would everybody feel better if Washington was awarded a participation trophy?

 

 

 

They at least should have been taken to pizza..........

[slickvick]

I have no problem with the Pats piling up points and crushing every opponent in their way.I will have no sympathy for them if Brady goes down with a season ending injury when he is throwing the rock with a 30 point lead.That is the part I find absolutely absurd.I bet most Pats fans feel the same way.Fine,flex your muscles and show that cheating or not you will dominate opponents,but show some common sense and put the franchise on the pine in these blowouts.

[Doc Holliday]

I have no problem with the Pats piling up points and crushing every opponent in their way.I will have no sympathy for them if Brady goes down with a season ending injury when he is throwing the rock with a 30 point lead.That is the part I find absolutely absurd.I bet most Pats fans feel the same way.Fine,flex your muscles and show that cheating or not you will dominate opponents,but show some common sense and put the franchise on the pine in these blowouts.

 

 

With 5.53 on the clock in the 4th quarter the Redskins got the ball and had every starter in the game. the last TD scored by a starting player was Cooleys TD.